Conor O'Gorman Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 The European Ombudsman has recognised a case of maladministration by the European Food Safety Authority regarding its failure to provide key documents in a timely manner during last year’s public consultation on EU lead ammunition restriction proposals.The ruling was made following a complaint by the European Federation for Hunting and Conservation (FACE), supported by BASC, to the ombudsman that the European Food Safety Authority did not supply key evidence on lead concentrations in game meat.This unseen data had been used to justify some aspects of the lead ammunition restriction proposals and it took over 8 months for the evidence to be provided to FACE. This was long after the consultation closed and when carefully checked, several issues were identified, which because of the time-lag could not be flagged in the consultation.Following this ruling FACE is calling for the public consultation to be re-opened to ensure the process is undertaken again to ensure fair play.More info from FACE: https://www.face.eu/2022/05/can-we-reach-fair-play-in-the-eus-approach-to-restricting-ammunition/ So, what does that mean for the future use of lead ammunition in the UK? Firstly, this development is directly relevant to Northern Ireland because under the NI protocol decisions taken by the EU in relation to lead ammunition could take effect in NI. If last year’s public consultation under the EU REACH regulations were re-opened that could mean at least a year’s delay in the restriction process. Secondly, with regard to proposed lead ammunition restrictions for England, Wales and Scotland currently being consulted on under UK REACH regulations, this underlines the need for due process to be followed utilising existing peer-reviewed research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 But obviously not the same "issues" that didn't stop your organisation calling for a voluntary ban on lead shot? A ban rejected by Prime Minster Cameron in 2016 but promoted by BASC in 2020? So now what? Painted yourselves AND WITHOUT EVER ANY CONSULTATION OF YOUR MEMBERS into a corner and thrown the small farm shoot, the pigeon shooter, the walked up shooter under the bus to protect a £250,000 investment of members' money AND WITHOUT EVER ANY CONSULTATION OF YOUR MEMBERS in the British Game Alliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 1 minute ago, enfieldspares said: But obviously not the same "issues" that didn't stop your organisation calling for a voluntary ban on lead shot? A ban rejected by Prime Minster Cameron in 2016 but promoted by BASC in 2020? So now what? Painted yourselves AND WITHOUT EVER ANY CONSULTATION OF YOUR MEMBERS into a corner and thrown the small farm shoot, the pigeon shooter, the walked up shooter under the bus to protect a £250,000 investment of members' money AND WITHOUT EVER ANY CONSULTATION OF YOUR MEMBERS in the British Game Alliance. Good luck with that; BASC don’t do ‘debate’, just statements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
udderlyoffroad Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 43 minutes ago, enfieldspares said: But obviously not the same "issues" that didn't stop your organisation calling for a voluntary ban on lead shot? A ban rejected by Prime Minster Cameron in 2016 but promoted by BASC in 2020? So now what? Painted yourselves AND WITHOUT EVER ANY CONSULTATION OF YOUR MEMBERS into a corner and thrown the small farm shoot, the pigeon shooter, the walked up shooter under the bus to protect a £250,000 investment of members' money AND WITHOUT EVER ANY CONSULTATION OF YOUR MEMBERS in the British Game Alliance. I assume all the BASC bashers on here will be formerly responding to the UK's consultation with well-reasoned, evidence-backed, arguments against the proposals? Or will you just moan on internet forums? Hate on BASC all you like, I'm sure Conor's a big boy, but are you lot actually going to do anything yourself other than **** and moan like grumpy old men? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 11 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said: I assume all the BASC bashers on here will be formerly responding to the UK's consultation with well-reasoned, evidence-backed, arguments against the proposals? Or will you just moan on internet forums? Hate on BASC all you like, I'm sure Conor's a big boy, but are you lot actually going to do anything yourself other than **** and moan like grumpy old men? 🙂👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudger687 Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 1 hour ago, enfieldspares said: But obviously not the same "issues" that didn't stop your organisation calling for a voluntary ban on lead shot? A ban rejected by Prime Minster Cameron in 2016 but promoted by BASC in 2020? So now what? Painted yourselves AND WITHOUT EVER ANY CONSULTATION OF YOUR MEMBERS into a corner and thrown the small farm shoot, the pigeon shooter, the walked up shooter under the bus to protect a £250,000 investment of members' money AND WITHOUT EVER ANY CONSULTATION OF YOUR MEMBERS in the British Game Alliance. Wouldn't bother wasting your time responding, I'm fairly sure Conor only posts here to wind everyone up and get his jollies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 1 hour ago, enfieldspares said: But obviously not the same "issues" that didn't stop your organisation calling for a voluntary ban on lead shot? A ban rejected by Prime Minster Cameron in 2016 but promoted by BASC in 2020? So now what? Painted yourselves AND WITHOUT EVER ANY CONSULTATION OF YOUR MEMBERS into a corner and thrown the small farm shoot, the pigeon shooter, the walked up shooter under the bus to protect a £250,000 investment of members' money AND WITHOUT EVER ANY CONSULTATION OF YOUR MEMBERS in the British Game Alliance. We all love the countryside and owe a duty of care to leave it better than we found it. When you resign from your small farm shoot and other shooting permissions be sure to post them on here there will no doubt be plenty of takers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8 shot Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said: assume all the BASC bashers on here will be formerly responding to the UK's consultation with well-reasoned, evidence-backed, arguments against the proposals? Or will you just moan on internet forums? Can’t consult with the Organisation’s it seems. The poo thickens and deepens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 20 minutes ago, 8 shot said: Can’t consult with the Organisation’s it seems. The poo thickens and deepens. Purchase cheap insurance from C3, dump BASC and the others, hit them where it hurts , in the bank balance. Thats my method of 'consulting' with them. The EU , which apparently we still follow when it comes to rulings like this, wants lead ammunition gone, in all aspects, they arent too fussed with providing hard evidence for why either, usually something to do do with vague harmful effects on wild birds, raptors ect, the human effect is unquantifiable. Pesticides on the other hand , with proven harmful effects on humans, and the birds/animals out there, are good to go .... https://euobserver.com/health-and-society/155048?fbclid=IwAR02YWObMq69NUCbemfMWW43TaksfuaP5bKdAglUtn_ZyAjUJ79YPn6EEO8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 49 minutes ago, 8 shot said: Can’t consult with the Organisation’s it seems. The poo thickens and deepens. No, you can’t, but you can write to numerous MP’s, politicians, the HO, the media. 🤷♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
udderlyoffroad Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 39 minutes ago, 8 shot said: Can’t consult with the Organisation’s it seems. The poo thickens and deepens. ... 11 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Purchase cheap insurance from C3, dump BASC and the others, hit them where it hurts , in the bank balance. Thats my method of 'consulting' with them. BASC isn't running a consultation, the HSE is. Are you going to submit a considered response to it, or not? Because, frankly, any shooter of whatever discipline that doesn't, is failing in their duty to the next generation, in my opinion. Either that belong to an organisation that will. Those are the two choices. Moaning on the internet whilst doing nothing makes you part of the problem. Whether or not you agree that BASC's - let's be charitable - poorly executed, voluntary phase out of lead shotgun ammunition for live quarry, is responsible wholly or partly, for the HSE's blanket ban, is at this point academic. That is in the past. Get on board, do something proactive about the current problem. 21 minutes ago, Rewulf said: The EU , which apparently we still follow when it comes to rulings like this The EU practice of banning things under the 'precautionary principle' is pernicious, counter-productive at best, and at worst actively harmful. One of the things we should've ditched as part of Brexit. But it doesn't alter the fact that the problem before is to counter the HSE's proposal with evidence and sound arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 1 minute ago, udderlyoffroad said: BASC isn't running a consultation, the HSE is. Are you going to submit a considered response to it, or not? I most certainly am , not that I consider it will do any good. What Im trying to gather is the information I consider irrefutable, as I have had conversations with Conor on another forum, his responses are usually deflective, and lack any real substance or conviction. I reckon the HSE response to the usual 'considered responses' would be similar. The problems are , lead is toxic , there isnt an argument there, but is shooting related lead a risk to human health ? The answer is 'Lead is toxic' so any lead put into the environment is a POTENTIAL human health hazard. The fact is , there is NO evidence to link any shooting related lead to ANY instances of lead poisoning, no matter how much lead shot game they have eaten. Lead causes poisoning in wild birds. Again , vague estimates by (mostly) anti shooting orgs , of as many as 100,000 birds dying pa from lead poisoning ? No concrete evidence, but even if true, so what ? Domestic cats are estimated by the same orgs to kill 50,000,000 pa ! And thats before you factor in predation from foxes , badgers and raptors, disease and starvation ect . This is the meat of my response so far. Im working on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 As @Rewulf , banning domestic cats would do far more good than banning lead ammunition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 Just now, London Best said: As @Rewulf , banning domestic cats would do far more good than banning lead ammunition. Thats if this thing was really about protecting birds.... Its not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said: I assume all the BASC bashers on here will be formerly responding to the UK's consultation with well-reasoned, evidence-backed, arguments against the proposals? Or will you just moan on internet forums? Hate on BASC all you like, I'm sure Conor's a big boy, but are you lot actually going to do anything yourself other than **** and moan like grumpy old men? basc pushed this non stop screaming toxic toxic the antis would be proud of them calling the truth bashing won’t change it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
udderlyoffroad Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 23 minutes ago, London Best said: As @Rewulf , banning domestic cats would do far more good than banning lead ammunition. Can we please all repress the urge to ban things? I'd ban visible tattoos, glitter, greengrocer's apostrophes and people who say 'should of'. 22 minutes ago, clangerman said: basc pushed this non stop screaming toxic toxic the antis would be proud of them calling the truth bashing won’t change it How's your response to the HSE consultation coming along Clangerman? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 21 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said: Can we please all repress the urge to ban things? I'd ban visible tattoos, glitter, greengrocer's apostrophes and people who say 'should of'. How's your response to the HSE consultation coming along Clangerman? even my response won’t change basc was the one pushing this rubbish screaming toxic toxic fact is a fact! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 (edited) 58 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said: I'd ban visible tattoos, glitter, greengrocer's apostrophes and people who say 'should of'. Instead of just moaning on t'net, you could be proactive and take a felt tipped pen and/or some Tippex the next time you go to said greengrocer. Edited May 25, 2022 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellors Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 Reading the the latest email from basc it looks like FACE are pushing to reopen the consultation. It's looking very likely that lead will go here before the eu with no chance of any input from the users here. Basc have obviously got an agenda what it could be I've no idea but there's obviously enough funds in the bank for redundancy and pensions so i assume that's why there not committing funds to a lost cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said: I'd ban visible tattoos, glitter, greengrocer's apostrophes and people who say 'should of'. With you on all that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said: I'd ban visible tattoos, glitter, greengrocer's apostrophes and people who say 'should of'. Don’t mind tattoos or glitter, but I’m with you on the rest, plus cyclists and personalised number plates. 🙂 Very few will respond. They’ll moan like hell but won’t respond. When shooting was faced with an even bigger threat after Bird in Cockermouth, less than 3% of UK shooters could be bothered to respond. Lethargic doesn’t even go far enough to describe the vast vast majority of UK shooters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellors Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 7 minutes ago, Scully said: Don’t mind tattoos or glitter, but I’m with you on the rest, plus cyclists and personalised number plates. 🙂 Very few will respond. They’ll moan like hell but won’t respond. When shooting was faced with an even bigger threat after Bird in Cockermouth, less than 3% of UK shooters could be bothered to respond. Lethargic doesn’t even go far enough to describe the vast vast majority of UK shooters. I responded. Also i have responded to the hse asking why lead shot is so toxic and dangerous to the public and wildlife. When they haven't even looked at why various outbreaks at hospitals with lead water mains haven't been investigated let alone the the amount of lead water mains going to houses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
udderlyoffroad Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 1 hour ago, wymberley said: Instead of just moaning on t'net, you could be proactive and take a felt tipped pen and/or some Tippex the next time you go to said greengrocer. 😂 34 minutes ago, mellors said: It's looking very likely that lead will go here before the eu with no chance of any input from the users here. This is except for viewers in Northern Ireland....where EU Reach still reigns supreme.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 17 minutes ago, mellors said: I responded. Also i have responded to the hse asking why lead shot is so toxic and dangerous to the public and wildlife. When they haven't even looked at why various outbreaks at hospitals with lead water mains haven't been investigated let alone the the amount of lead water mains going to houses. Jolly good. That’s four of us then! 🙂 1 hour ago, clangerman said: even my response won’t change basc was the one pushing this rubbish screaming toxic toxic fact is a fact! And there you have it! A mate says exactly the same ‘no point, it won’t change anything’. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 55 minutes ago, Scully said: Don’t mind tattoos or glitter, but I’m with you on the rest, plus cyclists and personalised number plates. 🙂 Very few will respond. They’ll moan like hell but won’t respond. When shooting was faced with an even bigger threat after Bird in Cockermouth, less than 3% of UK shooters could be bothered to respond. Lethargic doesn’t even go far enough to describe the vast vast majority of UK shooters. I will be responding after the NRA post their official response and recommendations on response. I will follow them and probably add some of my own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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