Held at gun point

[Westley]

31 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I know youre playing devils advocate, but how can one extrapolate 'bad guy with a gun' from a report of some men shooting in a field/rural location ?
What would they think from the racket caused by a game, or clay pig shoot ? Terrorist training camp ?
Especially from the original report 'They spoke to the landowner and it transpired it was a nuisance call from a local resident he is in dispute with regarding noise complaints'

Well done Walked up for keeping cool and calm (must have been your attire !) but the FOs need to go off for some training in what people do in the countryside sometimes.

Hence BASC trying to do just that. Reading the OP, the Police only found out it was a nuisance call AFTER the conversation with WalkedUp  ?

[London Best]

1 hour ago, Westley said:

THAT is what happens when you take Bobbies out of the control rooms  !

🙄

Having said that, it was not armed response  ?

Correct, not ARU. 

Simply that the girl on the switch board at Telford South Control had only chosen to hear the word ‘shooting’ and a location and thought she ought to report it without the rest of the message.

edit:  every week!

Edited July 25, 2022 by London Best

[Rewulf]

29 minutes ago, Westley said:

Hence BASC trying to do just that. Reading the OP, the Police only found out it was a nuisance call AFTER the conversation with WalkedUp  ?

Thats fair enough.

[HantsRob]

Sorry, I really have to go against the majority here and say that this horrifically written misogynistic post is one side of the story. 

 

I am sure there may be lessons learned both sides, but the second you felt the need to mention nail polish and identify officers as female specifically, you lose so much credence. Comments such as you make about not pointing a weapon unless you're prepared to kill? I can assure you if they have raised their firearms, they would have put 2 (or more) shots center mass to stop a continuing threat if they felt their lives were in danger. Not to kill, but to stop a threat. 

For every person like you, there will have been someone with a hidden weapon or blade and it is for protection. All firearms teams will carry their sidearm at all time, the fact they have brought out a non-lethal option is actually really nice to hear that they were coming to resolve with the lowest form possible. Non-lethal won't help if you're in the car hence the long guns. 

I'd have loved to have read an unbiased report, and I assure you that your friendly dog didn't make this massive change from nasty police officers to everyone having tea and biscuits, it sounds like it had already de-escalated.

Also, not shooting for fun doesn't a bad firearms officer make. I cringe at all your assumptions.

Yes, I'm pro Police. Yes I am open to a good debate and to highlight bad practices. You seem to fail to see any of your actions that could have been seen from their eyes, such as "evading" by driving away from them or failing to comply with an order to exit with your hands up. I have read and understood your mitigation on both and genuinely both are 100% valid. But, you discredit yourself by only going with your side of the story. 

Sorry. Really think you turned a really great story into one that doesn't look good for a shooting community. Shame. As I think a good balanced post could have still made you look awesome.

[Walker570]

2 hours ago, Westley said:

Sorry I have to disagree, I too have been there, done that etc. etc.  BUT times are different now. In our day it is likely that we would have had to make back to the armoury to draw weapons in the first place. That all changed AFTER Hungerford. But today's Police Officer expects to be assaulted one way or another on average once a month. In ANY Police incident, you have to take control of the situation as soon as possible to try and avoid escalation. At the time that I was carrying a gun, it was during the IRA bombing campaign in England, we still had to return to the armoury to draw weapons AFTER the incident had occurred, AND it did. I was involved in an armed raid on an IRA cell in a highly built up and populated area which resulted in a Bobby being shot. Due entirely to our lack of training and equipment and, dare I say, leadership. With today's training (which is really military based) and level of equipment, including the necessary body armour, today's Police Officer has to expect to be facing a gun or knife at EVERY armed response they attend. They therefore have to take control immediately until they know what they are dealing with. Having a chat through a partially open car window is NOT an option. REMEMBER each of the major shooting incidents that have taken place, have unfortunately, involved legally held firearms. There are far more mentally disturbed people loose on our streets than ever before and it is not beyond the realms of possibility, that they have access to firearms. As such, I believe today's Police Officers have a job that I am thankful to be out of. Yes, I carried a gun on our streets, stood behind a riot shield in the Liverpool riots and suffered the occasional assault, but NEVER to the degree of hatred shown towards today's Bobby's. I went to the aid of a shop assistant being assaulted by a female shoplifter (at the age of 75 I should have known better). I got stuck in the hand with a hyperdermic needle. That followed 6 months of hospital blood tests for me. The threat of violence is far more prevalent today than ever before and the Police will act accordingly.  I shot for 40 plus years on the urban fringe of Liverpool and only had Police attend once. I would ALWAYS inform the local control room of my intention to shoot and where, creating a log and getting a log number. Saved a lot of hassle  !

Seems that we were both at the sharp end about the same time. In the West Mids we also had two other incidents going on at the same time as the Birmingham bombings. The Leslie Whittle case in question the heap of garbage who killed the lass had stated he would shoot any copper who came near him so every enquiry team that went out had to have an armed crew with them. Times where difficult then with a relatively small trained unit spread covering three locations. I worked 12hrs a day for just over 12 months and had about four days off.  In the case of the pigeon shooter it WAS a gross over reaction in my view.  Put a door in at a known criminal user then your response would be different and was. we didn't pee about.  Times and attitudes to police officers has without doubt changed and who's fault is that I wonder.

[HantsRob]

Just now, Walker570 said:

In the case of the pigeon shooter it WAS a gross over reaction in my view.  Put a door in at a known criminal user then your response would be different and was. we didn't pee about.  Times and attitudes to police officers has without doubt changed and who's fault is that I wonder.

I agree with this a lot, with regards to not messing around and needing to go with "robustness". 

I am not sure I fully agree with your first statement, a gross over reaction? no. An over reaction? Maybe. 5 cars? Definitely an over-deployment. But, depending on the intel "2 odd men firing shotguns around" vs "2 men shouting and only 1 has emerged" would need a robust approach

[Westley]

6 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

I agree with this a lot, with regards to not messing around and needing to go with "robustness". 

I am not sure I fully agree with your first statement, a gross over reaction? no. An over reaction? Maybe. 5 cars? Definitely an over-deployment. But, depending on the intel "2 odd men firing shotguns around" vs "2 men shouting and only 1 has emerged" would need a robust approach

Thank you. Heat does strange things to people, least of all a large consumption of alcohol and THAT affects some peoples actions.  I am presuming it was hot due to OPs attire. It was reasonable to suspect that the 2 men could have been firing guns after possibly consuming alcohol all morning. Until a lot of facts have been revealed, I believe the Police response to be reasonable. I do not recall any incidents where pigeon shooters have been shot by Police. However I can recall too many incidents of Police Officers killed on duty.

[Walker570]

Just shows the value of the old country bobby living on the patch. He knew everthing and everybody and certainly in my time would have been a first call.   I'm not suggesting they should have emulated the Sherrifs crew in the recent school shooting and sat on their hands but often there are better ways of doing things.   I've been there done that...sat 150yrds away from the action with a high powered rifle and it was my call if the centre of attention warranted a round in his direction, I've stood on parapets with potential suiciders, I have dealt with a totally mental person waving a large carving knife and by easing back and using calm common sense, no person got hurt.

If that innocent pigeon shooter in total ignorance had made a bad move, would he have been shot?

[B725]

About 5 year's ago on Boxing day we had just finnished our morning shoot and as we were chatting in the farm yard a police BMW drove past very slowly turned around and drove into the gateway blocking it off. Two fully armed police got out to talk to us both had one hand resting on the pistol in readiness, they were very polite and it turned out some horse folk had phoned them about us shooting claiming no one ever shot there ( been shooting there for 20 odd year's). It was all resolved calmly and even a few joke's from each side. I offered one of them £50 if they would tazer my mate but he declined, but initially I think this is how each situation should start off not screaming and shouting as that may escalate the situation into something else. 

[grahamch]

17 hours ago, williamwansbeck said:

Aye got that innocent Brazilian guy shot dead in London by about a half dozen 9mm rounds ,"the jitters'" hyped up officers.

completely different situation and not really relevant here. 

[HantsRob]

18 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Just shows the value of the old country bobby living on the patch. He knew everthing and everybody and certainly in my time would have been a first call.  

Drones are now with firearms teams in my county
High power scope rifles

There are opportunities for sure, but then with a car "evading" and driving away, there wouldn't be enough drone launch time or time to get out the scope. 

I do however fully agree a proper old school beat bobby would have sorted that out in no time. That said, many officers that are shot are local officers to "check in the first instance".

21 minutes ago, Westley said:

Thank you. Heat does strange things to people, least of all a large consumption of alcohol and THAT affects some peoples actions.  I am presuming it was hot due to OPs attire. It was reasonable to suspect that the 2 men could have been firing guns after possibly consuming alcohol all morning. Until a lot of facts have been revealed, I believe the Police response to be reasonable. I do not recall any incidents where pigeon shooters have been shot by Police. However I can recall too many incidents of Police Officers killed on duty.

Agree with two thumbs up. 
I'd rather justify decisions of going in "hot" rather than being nonchalant and being shot. As the saying goes, I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

4 minutes ago, B725 said:

About 5 year's ago on Boxing day we had just finnished our morning shoot and as we were chatting in the farm yard a police BMW drove past very slowly turned around and drove into the gateway blocking it off. Two fully armed police got out to talk to us both had one hand resting on the pistol in readiness, they were very polite and it turned out some horse folk had phoned them about us shooting claiming no one ever shot there ( been shooting there for 20 odd year's). It was all resolved calmly and even a few joke's from each side. I offered one of them £50 if they would tazer my mate but he declined, but initially I think this is how each situation should start off not screaming and shouting as that may escalate the situation into something else. 

Nice story! 
I'd suggest you not being in a car may have helped, but definitely a really positive response with good engagement from both sides!

[scarecrow243]

some police do over react i was out shooting a few years ago with my 12 year old niece  we were just leaving the farm when a police sargent  shouted asking were we would be leaving the field i told him when we got out two young officers were there they asked if i had permission and what gun was in the slip i should them my permission and certificate they were fine and said ok no problem then the sargent turned up he was not happy that the two officers had checked my gun and permission he was shouting and swearing i stayed cool and told him he can check my permission even though i did not need too  if he would calm down and say sorry to my niece he did after a while  the two officers asked if i wanted to make a complaint and they would also make a complaint i said no just let it go

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, chilly1981 said:

So if you were a bad guy wanting to test fire or train where would you do it it would be in a rural location not out the back of your house. 
just because it’s the countryside don’t mean bad things don’t happen it’s not all creatures great and small 

Well , thats an assumption isnt it ?
2 men shooting in a rural location are criminals/terrorists 'test firing ' their illegal weapons, is that what the phone call to ops said ?

I think you need to calm down a bit, Im fully aware that its not 'All creatures great and small' in the countryside, I spend enough time in it, doing various shooting activities, and nothing like this has ever happened to me.
If the police attended every time someone heard a gunshot, and got the  screaming paranoid ideas of gangland enforcers, and foreign terrorists doing weapons training in yonder field, I would imagine they wouldnt get much else done !

1 hour ago, chilly1981 said:

And again they could not see his hands so had no idea what he had to hand so weapons will be trained on you until they are sure your not a threat to them or there colleges and as stated once he was cleared the situation de escalated  

You tend not to be able to see someones hands when they are inside a car driving it, again, you can assume they are reaching for the bomb trigger, or rocket launcher until you can.

48 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

Sorry, I really have to go against the majority here and say that this horrifically written misogynistic post is one side of the story. 

Jesus christ !
How can he give the other parties side ?

Perhaps he should have given them a full debrief at the time so he had their thoughts and opinions on record , so he could report it properly to your satisfaction ?

[HantsRob]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

Jesus christ !
How can he give the other parties side ?

Perhaps he should have given them a full debrief at the time so he had their thoughts and opinions on record , so he could report it properly to your satisfaction ?

 

I don't think he attended that job..... 
Of course he can't give the other side, but he was very happy to make assumptions for the other side. 

Due to the nature of his post I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask them once they were so happy petting the dog to why they went in so hot. However, including non-salacious or sensible tactics would have taken away the power of his story. But then, that's me guessing also.

The story isn't the issue, it was how it was presented I found highly distasteful. I will re-itterate I'd have liked to have still read it from his side, but without the misogyny for starters.

[London Best]

Still no need to arrive screaming and yelling.

They have been watching far too many American cop programmes.

Edited July 25, 2022 by London Best

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, London Best said:

Still no need to arrive screaming and yelling.

They have been watching far too many American cop programmes.

But that is done to suppress the possible wrong doer, they would not go in to a possible life threatening situation speaking softly.

The whole point of the process is to control, if you stay calm and do as you are told it is over relatively quickly.

You CANNOTT have it any other way!

[London Best]

7 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

But that is done to suppress the possible wrong doer, they would not go in to a possible life threatening situation speaking softly.

The whole point of the process is to control, if you stay calm and do as you are told it is over relatively quickly.

You CANNOTT have it any other way!

I think the screaming and yelling is more likely to panic people or incite a reaction.

[Dave-G]

Why shouldn't the OP relate stuff he had noted: red nail varnish and women screaming demands, how he was supposed to keep hands in sight while opening a door, and its fair to note finger action and muzzle awareness. 

Its reasonable to assume femininely made up girlies may not react the way strapping grit men would.

HantsRob sounds like a fully paid up member of the 'how dare you feel women are different to men' brigade, but ordinary, especially country active people, won't be thinking that way.

[oowee]

2 hours ago, HantsRob said:

Sorry, I really have to go against the majority here and say that this horrifically written misogynistic post is one side of the story. 

 

I am sure there may be lessons learned both sides, but the second you felt the need to mention nail polish and identify officers as female specifically, you lose so much credence. Comments such as you make about not pointing a weapon unless you're prepared to kill? I can assure you if they have raised their firearms, they would have put 2 (or more) shots center mass to stop a continuing threat if they felt their lives were in danger. Not to kill, but to stop a threat. 

For every person like you, there will have been someone with a hidden weapon or blade and it is for protection. All firearms teams will carry their sidearm at all time, the fact they have brought out a non-lethal option is actually really nice to hear that they were coming to resolve with the lowest form possible. Non-lethal won't help if you're in the car hence the long guns. 

I'd have loved to have read an unbiased report, and I assure you that your friendly dog didn't make this massive change from nasty police officers to everyone having tea and biscuits, it sounds like it had already de-escalated.

Also, not shooting for fun doesn't a bad firearms officer make. I cringe at all your assumptions.

Yes, I'm pro Police. Yes I am open to a good debate and to highlight bad practices. You seem to fail to see any of your actions that could have been seen from their eyes, such as "evading" by driving away from them or failing to comply with an order to exit with your hands up. I have read and understood your mitigation on both and genuinely both are 100% valid. But, you discredit yourself by only going with your side of the story. 

Sorry. Really think you turned a really great story into one that doesn't look good for a shooting community. Shame. As I think a good balanced post could have still made you look awesome.

Very true. ^^^^^

 

7 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Why shouldn't the OP relate stuff he had noted: red nail varnish and women screaming demands, how he was supposed to keep hands in sight while opening a door, and its fair to note finger action and muzzle awareness. 

Its reasonable to assume femininely made up girlies may not react the way strapping grit men would.

HantsRob sounds like a fully paid up member of the 'how dare you feel women are different to men' brigade, but ordinary, especially country active people, won't be thinking that way.

Oh please. 

[Rewulf]

44 minutes ago, chilly1981 said:

It is an assumption and it’s one they will make until proven otherwise to preserve there own life. 

45 minutes ago, chilly1981 said:

the call was of people shooting not chance are it’s not terrorists or anything sinister and they know that but when your life is on the line you don’t take chances. 

So do they assume every time some townie reports hearing gunfire in rural areas, that someone is up to no good, and go in with weapons levelled ?

45 minutes ago, chilly1981 said:

and I think you will find that any report of shooting is looked into by the police 

Absolute rubbish.
Certainly not in rural areas, and even in city areas , highly unlikely unless someone reports seeing a gun.
Where I live it sounds like WW3 most nights, the sound of 'gunfire' can be incessant , its modded cars popping and banging as they drive about.
We dont have ARVs chasing them up and down as they investigate these 'drivebys' 😆

26 minutes ago, London Best said:

I think the screaming and yelling is more likely to panic people or incite a reaction.

Exactly.

5 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Why shouldn't the OP relate stuff he had noted: red nail varnish and women screaming demands, how he was supposed to keep hands in sight while opening a door, and its fair to note finger action and muzzle awareness. 

Again , exactly , he related what he saw , and someone has decided its misogynistic ?
Im lost for words.

[oowee]

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

Again , exactly , he related what he saw , and someone has decided its misogynistic ?
Im lost for words.

I thought there was nothing more grating that the sound of women screeching, or women nagging you to do something that can’t be done, but it turns out that a screeching woman giving you orders 

 

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, oowee said:

I thought there was nothing more grating that the sound of women screeching, or women nagging you to do something that can’t be done, but it turns out that a screeching woman giving you orders 

Personally I didnt take that literally, but as an attempt at humour ?!

But if literal , are you saying you like the sound of a woman screeching at you ?

[oowee]

16 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Personally I didnt take that literally, but as an attempt at humour ?!

But if literal , are you saying you like the sound of a woman screeching at you ?

[Westley]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

I think the screaming and yelling is more likely to panic people or incite a reaction.

It's sole purpose is disorientation.  Hence the yelling at offenders when a vehicle is brought to a halt, or the breaking of the glass with batons. This literally frightens the Sh 1 T out of the offender allowing those vital few seconds to get them out of the vehicle and onto the ground.

 

[clangerman]

19 minutes ago, Westley said:

It's sole purpose is disorientation.  Hence the yelling at offenders when a vehicle is brought to a halt, or the breaking of the glass with batons. This literally frightens the Sh 1 T out of the offender allowing those vital few seconds to get them out of the vehicle and onto the ground.

 

so people who wouldn’t hesitate to put you in a coma if need be are supposed to be bothered by a bit of broken glass and shouting obviously didn’t run that one past real criminals first 

Edited July 25, 2022 by clangerman
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