Steel + choke mods + .410

[Ultrastu]

5 minutes ago, London Best said:

So, despite saying that steel is not safe to use in .410 guns, you were really only referring to those with moderated/ported barrels?

That will be a very small percentage of .410 guns currently in use then.

Virtually everyone I know has a .410 of some description and I don’t know of a single moderated/ported one.

Really .  I think moderated .410s make up a very large percentage  of .410s sold  these days .

1 minute ago, Old farrier said:

Will your new 4.10 be proof for steel? 

I presume  . But is it relevant  if there are no cartridges available   

[Old farrier]

2 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

Really .  I think moderated .410s make up a very large percentage  of .410s sold  these days .

I presume  . But is it relevant  if there are no cartridges available   

I’m thinking that in the future there may well be available just wondering if by having a non ported gun you were future proofing 

 

[Ultrastu]

1 minute ago, Old farrier said:

I’m thinking that in the future there may well be available just wondering if by having a non ported gun you were future proofing 

 

I am best I can .yes .

But also because I find that the ports Rob too much energy from an already low power / limited cartridge .

The sound reduction from the porting isn't worth the loss of range in my opinion  . My unported. 410  will drop pige at 40 yds .when I'm on it .

My previous  .410s with ports seriously struggled past 25 yds .

[Windswept]

23 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

Which type of plastic wad  do you mean  ? They act very differently. 

Just plastic wads as that's what the instructions mention.

[Ultrastu]

1 minute ago, Windswept said:

Just plastic wads as that's what the instructions mention.

If you have a baikal hushpower .I agree don't use  plas wads of either kind .the plastic shards that get stripped by the porting  can migrate in your gun and build up under the action stopping the gun from closing properly and hence failing to fire  when you pull the trigger .or worse  cause an accidental discharge on closing the gun .

Ask me how I know . 

Unfortunately  fibre wads  in  ported 410s   have a less effective range that plaswads  as the wad often gets ripped apart reducing the pressure behind the shot even further .

I also find fibre a bit less effective in my non ported .410  than a plas wad but by only 5 yds or so .so not too bad and a worthy  trade off  if I shoot over cattle fields etc .

[Stonepark]

2 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

In a ported barrel ?   with 5mm holes drilled along it . What happens when those steel balls hit the edge of the steel ports ?  I know the lead shot gets a slice taken off it . 

Have you tried it ? 

If there is a full cup  plas wad it may separate  the steel shot from the ports somewhat .but many .410 plas wads are just bungs  so the shot runs up the bore in direct contact with the walls and any porting .

It's a concern of mine .maybe you know more and can enlighten us .

Until 3.5 inch 12b came along to equal it, 3 inch 410 was the highest pressure shotgun, the guns are built to take pressure.

If the steel is contained within a plastic TPS type was, it is never going to contact the ports. Loose lead pellets with fibre was may get a piece sliced off, but neither my 410 or my 12b Mossberg's (not any extended chokes) show any problems with this with steel type wads.

No one is going to use steel with piston type wads or fibre wads if they value their barrels.

Choke is relative to bore size, you are squeezing the shot column by the same percentage, therefore effects are the same no matter the bore. As noted above, choke is only really required for distance, due to the limits in range in 3\8oz steel is 25 yards, choke is not required, or at most only a limited amount (2 1\2 thou).

What is key is shot size, whilst CIP standard steel cartridges is restricted to 3.25mm in 12b, in 410 following the same precedent standard steel shot would only be 2.25mm maximum and therefore all steel cartridges in 410 will need to be HP steel rated to be useful. 3mm is the maximum shot size in steel that would be feasible without scoring due to wad penetration but as noted above 2.6mm is the sweet spot for pattern.

[Stonepark]

32 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

If you have a baikal hushpower .I agree don't use  plas wads of either kind .the plastic shards that get stripped by the porting  can migrate in your gun and build up under the action stopping the gun from closing properly and hence failing to fire  when you pull the trigger .or worse  cause an accidental discharge on closing the gun .

Ask me how I know . 

Unfortunately  fibre wads  in  ported 410s   have a less effective range that plaswads  as the wad often gets ripped apart reducing the pressure behind the shot even further .

I also find fibre a bit less effective in my non ported .410  than a plas wad but by only 5 yds or so .so not too bad and a worthy  trade off  if I shoot over cattle fields etc .

410 Mossberg Hushpower with opened choke from full to IC. Pellet count went up from less than 90 to 120 on average as gun was overchoked and blowing fibre pattern previously.

Below Eley 18g no7 fibre at 35 yards

[Ultrastu]

Thats a very  good  pattern at 35 yds .it's interesting  as the best patterning guns ,my mate and I have found are our current ylidiz folders with  what appears to be a very tight  full choke (having measured them at being slightly more constricted than a standard full .) 

Previous  guns with  3/4 and 1/2 chokes have patterned less well . I also read often people preferring to use full or extra full chokes in there guns (walker ) 

The new gun I have on order is a single barrel but with 5 screw in chokes so I will able to test and find what's best for the carts I like .

I appreciate  your imput . Again as has been suggested  . Multi choke incase I do need to shoot steel .

It will be interesting  to see if some of the chokes are marked  - not for steel .

[Old farrier]

It’s a personal thing choice of chokes and they can be gun / cartridge specific I’ve found 4and5 thou work best in my browning with hull fibre wad 

the beretta likes a little more to get the best from it with fiochie plastic wad

im not going to mention express 🙄

Edited October 25, 2022 by Old farrier

[Fellside]

Just patterned a 410 today with 3” 19 gram Hull cart’s. Really surprised how good a 22 yard pattern was with cylinder choke. It would have perhaps been good for another couple of yards too. The quarter choke (10 thou on my particular gun) was too tight at that range to be of any real use….dinner plate size. 

[Ultrastu]

That's my favourite  cartridge .

They pattern very well generally and hit hard .

[London Best]

11 hours ago, Stonepark said:

 

Choke is relative to bore size, you are squeezing the shot column by the same percentage, therefore effects are the same no matter the bore. As noted above, choke is only really required for distance, due to the limits in range in 3\8oz steel is 25 yards, choke is not required, or at most only a limited amount (2 1\2 thou

Correct.

Most people do not realise that .010 to .020 thou is a very tight choke in a .410.
As you say, squeezing the shot column by the same percentage as a larger bore.

[Fellside]

10 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

That's my favourite  cartridge .

They pattern very well generally and hit hard .

My main field cart’ now also. 👍

The only other 410 cart’ I use is the Eley Trap 14 gram, shot size 7 1/2 for clays. 

[London Best]

2 hours ago, Fellside said:

 

The only other 410 cart’ I use is the Eley Trap 14 gram, shot size 7 1/2 for clays. 

I find them dynamite on farmyard corvids.

[Scully]

16 minutes ago, London Best said:

I find them dynamite on farmyard corvids.

I found them excellent for branchers. I really rate Eley cartridges. They are my go to manufacturer for all my shooting except SIPE for driven. I’ll probably end up using Eley for that too, given time and a lead shot ban. 

[neutron619]

17 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

Again I'd love to  know .there used to be a fella on this forum called neutrino  I believe ,he was super smart and did loads of cartridge  tests especially  in .410 . 

He still occasionally comes by and clicks on threads about .410s to find something interesting(!) - thank you for your kind words.

I never tested any steel cartridges for .410, by my guess would be that the same general rules as for other gauges apply.

Beyond that, a few thoughts related to the discussion:

I've always assumed that nominal choke constriction should be a proportion of bore size (e.g. as Briley: https://www.briley.com/c-448-bore-sizes-and-constrictions.aspx) rather than the english way of 0.010", 0.020" etc. irrespective of the bore size; 0.040" for full is extremely tight in a .410 and hasn't ever, to my knowledge, resulted in a usable pattern at any distance. Even the 0.025" "Full" on my multichoke .410 is essentialy useless and blows patterns for pretty much every cartridge I ever tried.

Hull High Pheasant 18g/#6 is the most effective cartridge I've ever used in the field. It's reliable to about 30-32 yards, and usable to 38-40 yards or so. 44 yards (e.g. 40m) is pushing it. When I tested it, it was the only cartridge in my gun that performed close to the nominal choke (e.g. a 65% pattern using an Improved Modified choke), notwithstanding the comment above about "Full" being too tight. Everything else I ever tested was shooting patterns that were significantly looser than the nominal choke, although generally, up to about .020" constriction, the more choke, the tighter the pattern.

My own feeling is that without lead, the .410 is obsolete. With the exception of the Eley Trap brand, all 2" and most 2½" cartridges performed too poorly for me to want to use them for birds. A surprising number of the 3" cartridges likewise. The old problems of shot sizes that were generally too large and over-choked guns didn't help, but there were only a handful that could throw (marginally) usable patterns at 30 yards and none, really, that were acceptable at 40.

Shooting the equivalent of less than the standard 2½" lead load (3/8oz = c. 10.6g) in steel #6 might just about be appropriate for small, static game (e.g. rats feeding - although I wouldn't want to shoot around buildings or in sheds made of corrugated iron, for example) but the likelihood of it being suitable for moving game / birds at any range seems pretty small to me.

Obviously I'm hoping for some kind of derogation for .410s, but I don't expect it. My own plan is to buy a slab or two of the Hull cartridges at some point in the next few months and retire the gun once they're used up or the ban comes in. I'm also moving my boy and I over to using 12's and 20's more consistently, because I don't believe there'll be a market for anything else in steel. I haven't shot a 20ga regularly, so that'll be an interesting diversion when I find one.

I suppose the 28 gauge might make a brief comeback as a beginners gun, but again I don't expect it. Someone registered the 28/76 cartridge specifications with the CIP in 2010 - https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-vii/tabvii-28-eng-2.pdf - so perhaps someone will make one and stuff it full of steel, but it's obscure before it starts and there aren't a ready supply of guns, unlike .410 which might (because there are) justify some commercial effort.

Meanwhile, the 3" 20 gauge case is still effectively un-used in the UK - I wonder whether stuffing 28g of steel #4/#5 into one might make a usable cartridge. I suspect that gauge, between the standard 24g 2¾" cartridge and perhaps a heavier 3" loading, is where the future of "small bore" shooting lies in this country. Meanwhile, I've found I quite like 32g/#4 for pigeons through a 0.020" choke in a 12 gauge, so if all else fails, I'll just have to shoot a "normal-sized" gun...

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Good to see you posting again Mate.

I reckon a 16 bore steel load would be a good way forward.

Edited October 26, 2022 by TIGHTCHOKE

[Dave at kelton]

20 hours ago, Walker570 said:

I have gone straight to bismuth. OK it is expensive but in the full cost of my annual pilgimage to a few driven bird estates each year it is irrelevant. Just have to cut back on the other uneeded items to cover it.   410s are a different breed to other gauges and pressures rise very quickly, that is why when reloading you need to be very precise.

I would not consider shooting steel at all.

You have just hit the nail on the head. In the scheme of things the cost of cartridges is a minimal part of the cost of a driven day, particularly this season.

[London Best]

25 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Good to see you posting again Mate.

I reckon a 16 bore steel load would be a good way forward.

Especially if you own a 16 bore.

 

 

I have a friend who has loved and used his Edwinson Green for thirty years.

In desperation of 16 bore politically correct ammunition appearing in the next few years he has bought a 20 bore with vertical barrels (the like of which he has never fired nor fancied in his life).

[wymberley]

2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Good to see you posting again Mate.

I reckon a 16 bore steel load would be a good way forward.

[Ultrastu]

Nice to hear form an authority  on the subject  .we very much appreciate  you posting and again welcome  back neutron 619 ,  please post more often .

Cheers . 

 

[Walker570]

21 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

Thats a very  good  pattern at 35 yds .it's interesting  as the best patterning guns ,my mate and I have found are our current ylidiz folders with  what appears to be a very tight  full choke (having measured them at being slightly more constricted than a standard full .) 

Previous  guns with  3/4 and 1/2 chokes have patterned less well . I also read often people preferring to use full or extra full chokes in there guns (walker ) 

The new gun I have on order is a single barrel but with 5 screw in chokes so I will able to test and find what's best for the carts I like .

I appreciate  your imput . Again as has been suggested  . Multi choke incase I do need to shoot steel .

It will be interesting  to see if some of the chokes are marked  - not for steel .

My Yilditz ...both of them, same model throw as tight if not tighter patterns than that at 35yrds(measured) both with lead and bismuth. Interestingly a firend tried his Browning full choke recently with one of my shells and with the same result. That was fibre wad.  I honestly cannot see why the need for discussing the use of steel in a 410 when the alternatives work so well.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Walker570

[neutron619]

 

3 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Good to see you posting again Mate.

I reckon a 16 bore steel load would be a good way forward.

Thank you. It's been a while - not a lot of time for it lately TBH - but it's nice to be back.

 

32 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

Nice to hear form an authority  on the subject  .we very much appreciate  you posting and again welcome  back neutron 619 ,  please post more often .

Likewise, thank you for the welcome and kind words. Total chance that I stumbled on this post really but I can't resist a good natter about .410 and it caught my interest.

3 hours ago, London Best said:

Especially if you own a 16 bore.

I have a friend who has loved and used his Edwinson Green for thirty years.

In desperation of 16 bore politically correct ammunition appearing in the next few years he has bought a 20 bore with vertical barrels (the like of which he has never fired nor fancied in his life).

The reason I landed on this post was really because I was here checking whether the advert I currently have posted for my 16 bore had received any interest. Unsurprisingly, it hadn't - but I don't know whether I should be sad of happy about that. On the one hand, it's the most capable gun I ever owned which throws 80%+ 40-yard patterns with the right cartridge; on the other, I see no future for it in a world of shooting steel and...

30 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

I honestly cannot see why the need for discussing the use of steel in a 410 when the alternatives work so well.

...since even as a moderately well-off person these days, I have no intention of paying £40/box cartridges (e.g. Eley Bismuth) when I can shoot a more capable gun for 25% of the cost (e.g. Gamebore Super Steel 32g/#4 in a 12-gauge), it will most likely have to follow the 28 bore out of the door or onto the wall.

Ultimately, although I enjoy the unusual, the interesting and sometimes, the downright obscure, I want to kill and eat birds and I have to have an affordable, reliable way of doing that which keeps me fed and the farmers happy. Perhaps if I had a title, 10,000 acres and no care about money, I'd find a way to keep them going, but with the boy now shooting a 20 and me mostly steel through a 12, it makes sense to consolidate on those two and forget the rest.

Or we need some of these loaded with steel....

[London Best]

For me, a gun which throws 80%+ patterns at 40 yards would not be the most capable gun. 
It must be utterly useless at less than about 35 yards by a) missing because the pattern is too small and b) worse still smashing game beyond being edible. That would be no use to me for any form of shooting.

[neutron619]

52 minutes ago, London Best said:

For me, a gun which throws 80%+ patterns at 40 yards would not be the most capable gun. 
It must be utterly useless at less than about 35 yards by a) missing because the pattern is too small and b) worse still smashing game beyond being edible. That would be no use to me for any form of shooting.

Well, yes, granted it's not good for very short range although I never found it "smashed" much at normal ranges.

But when you're pass shooting pigeons in 250 acre Cambridgeshire fields with no cover in high winds, where getting underneath the birds is a matter of luck and every other shot is 45-yards-plus, it's quite useful.

What I actually meant, of course, is that, with the exception of subsonic cartridges (which are in a class of their own), any gun and cartridge throwing an 80% pattern at 40 yards is highly unusual and has a longer range than most other examples. Ergo, more capable, in the same way that a .25-06 is more capable than a .257 Roberts. That doesn't mean I wouldn't choose the 'Bob in preference.

What I didn't say is that it was more practical which of course, depends on what situation you're in. I imagine I'd shoot something else for pheasant / partridge, for example.

PS - Of course, there's always the ½ choke barrel which does nicely for 15-35 yards - and I don't shoot a lot other than pigeons currently.

Edited October 26, 2022 by neutron619