Proof house result!!

[old'un]

12 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I agree on hardened steel, but some hardenings are (I believe, though I'm no expert) a thin surface hardened layer.  I believe such types are used in bearing construction.  Case hardening may be of that type?  I have no idea if that could be done inside? 

Some barrels are internally hard chromed (Beretta for one).  Does this help in the event of wad failure?

You can with an electro-magnetic induction coil heat treat (harden) only the inside wall of the barrel, internal case hardening.

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, old'un said:

You can with an electro-magnetic induction coil heat treat (harden) only the inside wall of the barrel, internal case hardening.

OK, I wonder if that has been tried?

[old'un]

5 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

OK, I wonder if that has been tried?

yep...https://patents.google.com/patent/US4949758A/en

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, old'un said:

yep...https://patents.google.com/patent/US4949758A/en

OK, I was wondering really if it had been tried on gun barrels - and even more if it had (for example) been tried with steel shot in any form, possibly even without cup protection (not necessarily as a practical proposition, but to assess the real extent of damage in the event of wad failure).

[old'un]

4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

OK, I was wondering really if it had been tried on gun barrels - and even more if it had (for example) been tried with steel shot in any form, possibly even without cup protection (not necessarily as a practical proposition, but to assess the real extent of damage in the event of wad failure).

As I said and even with hardened walls, the big problem is one of lubrication to stop pickup, dry steel on dry steel, not good, ask anyone who forgot to refill with oil after an oil change.

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, old'un said:

As I said and even with hardened walls, the big problem is one of lubrication to stop pickup, dry steel on dry steel, not good, ask anyone who forgot to refill with oil after an oil change.

Yes, we used to get it badly especially on stainless threaded fasteners when used with nyloc inserts.  Possibly the shot could have a little graphite powder or similar added as a precaution?

[London Best]

My remark re hardened steel barrels was aimed at hardened steel. 
I am well aware that case hardened would likely solve the possibility of shattering.

[wymberley]

55 minutes ago, old'un said:

Spot on ...if a wad fails with steel you are likely to see signs on the inner and outer of the barrel, more so near the muzzle, even if there are no outward signs you may see metal pickup on the barrel wall.

Steel on steel travelling at those speeds is not good, did think about this a little and was thinking hardened steel barrels but you would still have the possibility of pickup unless there was some way of lubricating the shot/barrel wall.

I suppose we could use iron shot instead of steel although this would probably not remove the need for some form of barrel protecting wad. Lead would possibly be good. We could even harden that to improve its efficiency down the barrel and in flight. My OU at 6&1/2 lbs would have been steel proof - being superior proofed as it is at 1320 bar - had I not specified 3/4 choke in the one barrel.

[Scully]

3 minutes ago, wymberley said:

I suppose we could use iron shot instead of steel although this would probably not remove the need for some form of barrel protecting wad. Lead would possibly be good. We could even harden that to improve its efficiency down the barrel and in flight. My OU at 6&1/2 lbs would have been steel proof - being superior proofed as it is at 1320 bar - had I not specified 3/4 choke in the one barrel.

If you don’t want to put HP loads through that 3/4 you could use standard loads. 
I think Gamebore are pushing standard loads very fast for Scandinavian trap shooting which specifies non toxic. I can’t recall what the wad is though, may be plastic. 

[mudpatten]

Just to add to the barrel damage confusion.

[old'un]

43 minutes ago, London Best said:

My remark re hardened steel barrels was aimed at hardened steel. 
I am well aware that case hardened would likely solve the possibility of shattering.

Even that would not shatter with a low carbon tool steel and tempered to the correct Rockwell, obviously it would need some trials.

33 minutes ago, wymberley said:

I suppose we could use iron shot instead of steel although this would probably not remove the need for some form of barrel protecting wad. Lead would possibly be good. We could even harden that to improve its efficiency down the barrel and in flight. My OU at 6&1/2 lbs would have been steel proof - being superior proofed as it is at 1320 bar - had I not specified 3/4 choke in the one barrel.

Still got the same problem steel on steel, pickup.

[wymberley]

20 minutes ago, Scully said:

If you don’t want to put HP loads through that 3/4 you could use standard loads. 
I think Gamebore are pushing standard loads very fast for Scandinavian trap shooting which specifies non toxic. I can’t recall what the wad is though, may be plastic. 

CIP and the fleur de lys is actually stamped on the lump but over-ridden by 'ne pas utliiser avec billes d'acier' on the barrels so I think I'll carry on with this lead stuff as it seems to work.

[Nuke]

1 hour ago, old'un said:

As I said and even with hardened walls, the big problem is one of lubrication to stop pickup, dry steel on dry steel, not good, ask anyone who forgot to refill with oil after an oil change.

Plate the shots in something softer.

/M

[Scully]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

CIP and the fleur de lys is actually stamped on the lump but over-ridden by 'ne pas utliiser avec billes d'acier' on the barrels so I think I'll carry on with this lead stuff as it seems to work.

As will I, until we no longer can. 👍

[old'un]

44 minutes ago, Nuke said:

Plate the shots in something softer.

/M

Lead

 

possible, but the plating would need to-be of a thickness that it would not allow the steel to brake through and come into contact with the barrel wall.

[RCB56]

4 hours ago, wymberley said:

I suppose we could use iron shot instead of steel although this would probably not remove the need for some form of barrel protecting wad. Lead would possibly be good. We could even harden that to improve its efficiency down the barrel and in flight. My OU at 6&1/2 lbs would have been steel proof - being superior proofed as it is at 1320 bar - had I not specified 3/4 choke in the one barrel.

I maybe mistaken  but I believe it is soft iron that is used but has been called steel for ease of terminology.

[Gordon R]

I don't know why they made the video. After limited shots, they found a score inside the barrel. A few thousand shots would have been a little more realistic.

[JohnfromUK]

27 minutes ago, RCB56 said:

I maybe mistaken  but I believe it is soft iron that is used but has been called steel for ease of terminology.

Yes, I'm pretty sure you are right.

[old'un]

1 hour ago, RCB56 said:

I maybe mistaken  but I believe it is soft iron that is used but has been called steel for ease of terminology.

correct, the shot is made from iron wire.

[neutron619]

12 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Some barrels are internally hard chromed (Beretta for one).  Does this help in the event of wad failure?

Re: this and the comment about shot being made from iron wire - yes, it ought to.

I'm not a materials scientist - although I did work for a company in that area at one point - but I do remember something about the Mohs scale of hardness (I know it's outdated) and I seem to recall that the way it defined hardness / softness was relative and based on whether one material could scratch another. E.g. only another diamond can scratch a diamond and all that.

Doesn't this mean that soft iron - with, one assumes, a lower hardness rating than super-hard chrome steel - ought not to scratch chrome barrels, even if the wad fails? In the sense that, rather than the shot scratching the barrel, it ought to be the barrel "scratching" the shot, much as is the case with (very soft) lead now?

I've never seen any scored barrels (although I note the link above). I'd have thought old guns made of softer steel could be susceptible to scoring, but I'd be very surprised if anything modern could have this problem since the development of new (barrel) steels has continued apace up to the present day and they ought all to be hard / flexible enough to be "immune" unless a manufacturer was doing something very odd...?

PS - In all of this steel stuff, I'd be more concerned about bulging of the chokes and forcing cones which are subjected (it's mathematically provable) to reasonably large outward-pushing forces (the sine of a small angle multiplied by a large force can still be a large resultant force), but I don't have any particular concerns and have decided to make the move early before I'm pushed - it's an excuse to offload some old guns and buy some new ones I fancy and get it past HQ....

Edited November 29, 2022 by neutron619

[wymberley]

12 hours ago, neutron619 said:

Re: this and the comment about shot being made from iron wire - yes, it ought to.

I'm not a materials scientist - although I did work for a company in that area at one point - but I do remember something about the Mohs scale of hardness (I know it's outdated) and I seem to recall that the way it defined hardness / softness was relative and based on whether one material could scratch another. E.g. only another diamond can scratch a diamond and all that.

Doesn't this mean that soft iron - with, one assumes, a lower hardness rating than super-hard chrome steel - ought not to scratch chrome barrels, even if the wad fails? In the sense that, rather than the shot scratching the barrel, it ought to be the barrel "scratching" the shot, much as is the case with (very soft) lead now?

I've never seen any scored barrels (although I note the link above). I'd have thought old guns made of softer steel could be susceptible to scoring, but I'd be very surprised if anything modern could have this problem since the development of new (barrel) steels has continued apace up to the present day and they ought all to be hard / flexible enough to be "immune" unless a manufacturer was doing something very odd...?

PS - In all of this steel stuff, I'd be more concerned about bulging of the chokes and forcing cones which are subjected (it's mathematically provable) to reasonably large outward-pushing forces (the sine of a small angle multiplied by a large force can still be a large resultant force), but I don't have any particular concerns and have decided to make the move early before I'm pushed - it's an excuse to offload some old guns and buy some new ones I fancy and get it past HQ....

Good luck with that. Second aim is a piece of doddle at the moment - buyers' market - but currently the first is even more difficult that the notoriously dodgy third.

[Sweet11-87]

id be confident that if you wanted to save money the cost saving in reloading  steel shot directly onto standard fibre wads and nitro cards  put through a robust gun the money youd save over buying eco wads would heavily outweight having a barrel resleeved as wen and if barrel scouring happened. i think it would take multi thousands of shouts through a heavy duty chrome lined barrel

[Cosmicblue]

On 29/11/2022 at 10:41, Rob85 said:

Regarding the wad situation, has anyone attempted to make their own biodegradable shot cup to handle steel shot rather than fork out the money for the market available ones? 

Yes - already available.  

https://bioammo.es/

The biodegradable wad completely encapsulates the shot and I really like these carts too - quite 'sharp' in the shoulder, I'm shooting 24grm 7.5 lead at the moment and one of my regular shooting group bought 1500 Bioammo steel load form, tried them in my now departed F3 Vantage and truthfully couldn't tell the difference.

Tried burying a couple of case/wads in the garden, after 6 months only the metal bases were left.

 

[Rob85]

1 hour ago, Cosmicblue said:

Yes - already available.  

https://bioammo.es/

The biodegradable wad completely encapsulates the shot and I really like these carts too - quite 'sharp' in the shoulder, I'm shooting 24grm 7.5 lead at the moment and one of my regular shooting group bought 1500 Bioammo steel load form, tried them in my now departed F3 Vantage and truthfully couldn't tell the difference.

Tried burying a couple of case/wads in the garden, after 6 months only the metal bases were left.

 

I know there are ones that can be bought but I meant has anyone tried to make there own at home out of paper/card etc? From what I see the clay game ones are some sort of tough fibre based thing. Was just wondering if it was possible for the home gamer to make something similar. With there being only a small number of manufacturers this will keep prices up. 

I haven't gotten into the reloading game as of yet but as a known tinkered I'm wondering if it would be worth experimenting with sometime

[old'un]

On 30/11/2022 at 20:17, Sweet11-87 said:

id be confident that if you wanted to save money the cost saving in reloading  steel shot directly onto standard fibre wads and nitro cards  put through a robust gun the money youd save over buying eco wads would heavily outweight having a barrel resleeved as wen and if barrel scouring happened. i think it would take multi thousands of shouts through a heavy duty chrome lined barrel

it wasn't so much the scouring of the barrels I was thinking of, but metal on metal pickup.