Strange sentencing

[Rewulf]

A prepper with legally held firearms and knives , with a clean record, has been jailed for having a sawn off shotgun, and some ammunition violations, being given 5 years 10 months. https://www.kentonline.co.uk/dover/news/inside-the-home-of-dad-of-five-preparing-for-end-of-society-278956/

The police tried very hard to make his prepper lifestyle sound like a crime in itself.

Now I'm not saying his sentence was unjust , it's just when you compare it to this one, a Glock, a pile of drugs and cash , and he gets the same ?

https://www.essex.police.uk/news/essex/news/news/2022/july/man-with-gun-jailed/

Both men will be out in 3 years, one stupid man out to a ruined life, the other , a hardened drug dealing,  violent criminal , straight back to his previous work ?

Where are the deterrents ?

 

[Jaymo]

I can see where your coming from but..

This is the minimum sentencing which has to be handed down. We cannot have one rule for one and one for another, otherwise it all gets a bit ‘grey’. 
 

As to the holding limit- I do wonder why we have these limits? 2000 .22lr really isn’t any less of a ‘threat’ than 2300, or 4000 even! 

[armsid]

theyRewulf, drug dealers are "accepted" as the norm in some areas but legal gun owners who are stupid are frowned on As Jaymo points out the law is the law but the holding limits wether it is 100 or 1000 the rifle can only hold so many in the mag

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by armsid

[ph5172]

I think Joymo has summed it up. He had an illegal firearm. Doesn’t really matter what that illegal firearm is. 
he may have stood a better chance if he had it in his cabinets but hiding it behind the freezer points to a man who holding shotguns knew this one was illegal, probably not helped he had applied for what appears to be a variation of some sort to hold a similar sized shotgun / firearm 

[enfieldspares]

This was a comment left by another on the news item in his local newspaper. 

Quote

He was just a chap who thinks the world will end has prepared for it, and who is a bit eccentric clearly. Clearly no different from the Swedish doom gobbling and the eco loons with all their doom mongering that we are in a climate emergency and the world is going to end in fire, famine and flood etc etc, so is he any more mad than those who believe in the new faux religion and cult of climate emergency, or whatever it's called this week, or the simpletons that believe paying the governments and the very rich lots of faux green taxes will magically make any difference to the earth climate, something so complex that no one on earth completely understands it.
At least this guy believes in something (Zombies) that is more likely to happen (I'm being sarcastic) than what millionaire Greta and billionaire Ali Gore shill, from their luxury beachfront mansions

 

[Walker570]

I have said it before but still fits this situation. My wife was about to apply for the Magistrates and a Magistrate friend of some years experience told her not to bother because she would tear her hair out at the restrictions placed upon them.  Same here I'm afraid.  Dealing drugs minimum 20yrs in my view. The other guy should have been given a lifetime suspended sentence.   

[Downforce]

I think that if you deliberately do something illegal with firearms then the law should apply, but I do think that the same application of “the law” generally does not apply these days. 
There seems to be certain topics that get the attention and probably quite rightly firearms is one of the things that’s vigorously pursued, whereas theft and drug offences could be seen to be less important by some forces with some reported offences not getting anything more than a crime number!

Having said that there are going to be firearms offences that should require an element of discretion or leniency just like speeding depending on the amount of transgression plus circumstances and I don’t think that same level of sensible-ness is always applied, it seems absolutely binary with firearms.

What should happen to someone who has a misfire on the range and picks up a single 22LR round off the floor puts it in their jacket pocket with the intent of disposal then forgets to dispose of it accidentally leaving it in the jacket for example. Personally I have a routine to prevent such things but it’s something that could happen to anyone with no intent.
That said there seems to be an argument for an aggravated offence where possession with intent to carry or use does attract a longer sentence and that should be associated to perceived public risk, so someone that’s carrying a glock on the street is potentially much more likely to pull it out and start using it, therefore potentially more public risk (on the face of what’s been reported).

D

Edited December 27, 2022 by Downforce

[team tractor]

You carry an illegal firearm and it’s what happens but as said on the amounts of allocated ammo I feel is silly . If you are intent on going crazy you’re not worrying about the law . You’d just stock a thousand in the loft . 

[Rewulf]

19 hours ago, ph5172 said:

I think Joymo has summed it up. He had an illegal firearm. Doesn’t really matter what that illegal firearm is. 

They both had illegal sec 5 firearms, they both deserve min 5 year terms, no argument from me there. 

However, one had a shed load of drugs, cash and drug dealing equipment, plus the use of a loaded sec 5 handgun to back his empire up? 

Who is the greater threat? 

[Dougy]

39 minutes ago, team tractor said:

You’d just stock a thousand in the loft . 

That's the 1st place I'd look. 

[Downforce]

Well the criminal justice system as a whole fails to offer “fair” sentences. It happens all over the place.
Some would have seen “24 Hours in police custody” where the guy got prison for pursuing burglars and causing an unintended accident whereas the burglars were deliberately theiving got no custodial sentence seemingly as a result of being hard done by as a result of the accident. 
I think that intent should play a bigger part in both the prosecution and sentencing but obviously establishing intent can be difficult.
It does appear that professionals that know how the system works and to just give a no comment interview are just too difficult to deal with so get away with much more. 
D

Edited December 27, 2022 by Downforce

[Dougy]

9 minutes ago, Downforce said:

Well the criminal justice system as a whole fails to offer “fair” sentences. It happens all over the place.
Some would have seen “24 Hours in police custody” where the guy got prison for pursuing burglars and causing an unintended accident whereas the burglars were deliberately theiving got no custodial sentence seemingly as a result of being hard done by as a result of the accident. 
I think that intent should play a bigger part in both the prosecution and sentencing but obviously establishing intent can be difficult.
It does appear that professionals that know how the system works and to just give a no comment interview are just too difficult to deal with so get away with much more. 
D

The problem with the incedent you mentioned it was beyond reasonable force. Uncontrolled anger was the force behind that. Don't get me wrong, been there done very similar. It's not where we need to be. 

Fair treatment for the prepper ?   No I don't think it was, but I don't sit in the judges seat, and a good job too or the crems would be burning 24-7

[Downforce]

21 minutes ago, Dougy said:

The problem with the incedent you mentioned it was beyond reasonable force. Uncontrolled anger was the force behind that. Don't get me wrong, been there done very similar. It's not where we need to be. 

Fair treatment for the prepper ?   No I don't think it was, but I don't sit in the judges seat, and a good job too or the crems would be burning 24-7

But how does a deterrent act in the case of unintended consequence 

It doesn’t 

If you don’t intend to do something you are not going to rationally evaluate the potential legal outcome 

So the only value in a deterrent is in the case of an intended action.

If (and I really mean IF) the people that are intent on committing crime assess that the chance of getting caught is low, the chance of being charged is very low and the chance of getting convicted is minimal but even if they do get convicted there’s a good chance they can argue that they are the victim are they going to stop?

 

D

 

[old man]

Just an illustration of society, start off tight then allow access for others to create scenarios whereby a state of supposed disadvantage of others gives leeway?

Result? what we have now, a system not fit for purpose?

[Gordon R]

I think they should both have got at least double.

In the case of the drug dealer, it is hardly rocket science to understand why he had weapons. He admitted his offences.

The "prepper" was dishonest and gave a pathetic explanation as to why he had the sawn off. 

Personally, I am glad neither are free to roam the streets. I just wish it had been for much, much longer.

[Genghis]

50 minutes ago, Dougy said:

That's the 1st place I'd look. 

I think his point was that if someone genuinely intends on committing a despicable offence then the 5 year sentence won’t be much of a deterrent to them.
 

It’s the same reason why the restrictions on carrying knives haven’t cut down on knife crime. If someone has the idea to go out and stab someone to death (life sentence, serve minimum of 17 years), then why would the 5 year sentence (out in 3) from carrying a knife scare them off? They’ve already committed to carrying out a crime that carries a far harsher punishment.  If 17 years doesn’t scare them, I doubt that an extra 3 would.

[Jaymo]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

They both had illegal sec 5 firearms, they both deserve min 5 year terms, no argument from me there. 

However, one had a shed load of drugs, cash and drug dealing equipment, plus the use of a loaded sec 5 handgun to back his empire up? 

Who is the greater threat? 

Both. 
Historically any major ‘event’ in the UK has had some back story to it. Ryan, Hamilton, Moat and the more recent Incell guy- all had some ‘odd’ character traits. 
 

Prepping for an event that may or may not happen, is one thing, this was another level and rather ‘sad’ 
The level of ‘practice’ that guy was achieving within the home made me wince a bit. 
Don’t mind a game of ‘arrows’ ( never ever got 180 btw), but I don’t usually use knives to do so. 
 

I know we shouldn’t judge a person by their home, but in this case! 

If he needed a sawn off during the apocalypse, then why didn’t he just buy a hacksaw and tape it to the barrel for when it happens - dump the ‘pistol cylinder’ as that’s useless without a barrel/frame. 
Had he done this then, the slight over allowance of ammo would probably just been revocation of his certs and not jail time.  
 

 

Agree with Gordon, they both needed removing from society and for longer too. 
 

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

Historically any major ‘event’ in the UK has had some back story to it. Ryan, Hamilton, Moat and the more recent Incell guy- all had some ‘odd’ character traits

Broadly, I would agree, however being odd isn't illegal, and the police went to great lengths to make this an aggravating factor in his crime, and failed. So it really shodnt be considered in his sentencing. 

 

7 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

Don’t mind a game of ‘arrows’ ( never ever got 180 btw), but I don’t usually use knives to do so. 

Throwing knives can be great fun, Hatchet Harry's, an axe throwing experience is an experience open in many cities as of now. 

Not illegal, or even considered 'odd' 

There are many who consider legal firearms ownership as being odd? 

10 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

If he needed a sawn off during the apocalypse, then why didn’t he just buy a hacksaw and tape it to the barrel for when it happens - dump the ‘pistol cylinder’ as that’s useless without a barrel/frame. 
Had he done this then, the slight over allowance of ammo would probably just been revocation of his certs and not jail time

Agreed, but prepping in countries like the US, isn't considered all that wild... 

[enfieldspares]

What surprises me in fact is that the guy was lawfully allowed a holding of two thousand rounds of .22LR as I'd thought that such large amounts were long gone and the usual limit was around six hundred (plus a few more) to about a thousand to allow a brick of five hundred to be bought as the other one is used up. Especially as none of his pictured rifles appear to be specialised small bore target rifles which might...although not as current guidance...have permitted holding a large amount of a specially accurate "batch" of the same cartridge.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1116230/Firearms_guide_November_2022.pdf

Quote

12.54 Chief officers of police should also consider the “good reason” for possession of ammunition quantities for target shooting. Allocations of 1,000 rounds, to possess, purchase or acquire, are not unreasonable for most regular shooters. A serious target shooter (for example in a county or national squad) may reasonably wish to possess up to 6,000 rounds to ensure consistency in performance between batches. In exceptional circumstances greater amounts may be required. These figures should be used as guides only and should not be interpreted as absolute limits. This is normally applicable to .22RF rather than full-bore target shooting. Economy of purchase (‘bulk buying’) is not considered satisfactory as “good reason”.

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Jaymo]

53 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Broadly, I would agree, however being odd isn't illegal, and the police went to great lengths to make this an aggravating factor in his crime, and failed. So it really shodnt be considered in his sentencing. 

 

Throwing knives can be great fun, Hatchet Harry's, an axe throwing experience is an experience open in many cities as of now. 

Not illegal, or even considered 'odd' 

There are many who consider legal firearms ownership as being odd? 

On the first point. Whilst being ‘odd’ isn’t illegal ( many of us are odd in many ways). 
The sum of the parts in this case, makes him out to be an oddity that maybe in most peoples perception including mine.

Had I entered his place on another other occasion than to execute the warrant, I would have come away saying that he was one to watch. 
 

Second point- knife throwing, it is fun and I have done so, just not in my own bloody house. Wife refuses to be place on a spinning disc with balloons strategically place- can’t for the life of me reason why she doesn’t trust me? 
 

I do understand what your saying but come on, I’ve seen your decor and it ain’t like that and we both like ‘black guns’ 

[Mungler]

It’s always a worry when the police and reporting go out of their way to over cook the facts.

Every time you see the headline ‘Arms cache’ or a police report that a dozen weapons have been seized but when you zoom in on the photos there’s the BSA Meteor, there’s the Scorpion slingshot, there’s the crappy Trident cross bow, there’s the CO2 PPK BB gun and so on….

 

[Jaymo]

9 minutes ago, Mungler said:

It’s always a worry when the police and reporting go out of their way to over cook the facts.

Every time you see the headline ‘Arms cache’ or a police report that a dozen weapons have been seized but when you zoom in on the photos there’s the BSA Meteor, there’s the Scorpion slingshot, there’s the crappy Trident cross bow, there’s the CO2 PPK BB gun and so on….

 

Always makes me wonder why so many ‘crappy’ pieces, when only one decent springer would do. 
plus to make sure you have plenty of pellets of course. 

[Downforce]

15 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

On the first point. Whilst being ‘odd’ isn’t illegal ( many of us are odd in many ways). 
The sum of the parts in this case, makes him out to be an oddity that maybe in most peoples perception including mine.

Had I entered his place on another other occasion than to execute the warrant, I would have come away saying that he was one to watch. 
 

Second point- knife throwing, it is fun and I have done so, just not in my own bloody house. Wife refuses to be place on a spinning disc with balloons strategically place- can’t for the life of me reason why she doesn’t trust me? 
 

I do understand what your saying but come on, I’ve seen your decor and it ain’t like that and we both like ‘black guns’ 

Odd is in the eye of the beholder 

Some people think anyone that shoots is odd

 

[Jaymo]

2 minutes ago, Downforce said:

Odd is in the eye of the beholder 

Some people think anyone that shoots is odd

 

True. 
But take away the firearms element from the story and imagine you’re an estate agent or landlord going round to carry out an inspection/ valuation. 
 

To walk through that place and not come away thinking ‘oddball’ would be highly unlikely. 
 

Please tell me that you all don’t think him and his behaviour is ‘normal’ ( even for shooting folk)? 

[Rewulf]

32 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

I do understand what your saying but come on, I’ve seen your decor and it ain’t like that and we both like ‘black guns’

I prefer 'assault rifle' 😂