Pump action at a Clay ground

[London Best]

I have never fired a pump action shotgun. Come to think of it, I have never seen anyone using one either. 
But I have heard it said that, in the hands of a shooter who is well used to a pump, they are faster to cycle than a semi auto and less prone to jams. 
Any thoughts on this from someone who can really use one?

[Gordon R]

Quote

Oh, well if you don't see the need for it then I guess everyone else is wrong aren't they?

Well if you do see the need, then everyone else is wrong.

Opinions vary on this. Scully, whose opinion I respect, does not agree with me. That's life.

There are a few people on here who run / have run clay shoots. I would welcome their opinion.

[WalkedUp]

On 31/12/2022 at 07:27, TK421 said:

I think the issue only arises when you’re dealing with idiots hence the need to have a blanket ground rule for everyone, that way you cater for stupid,

100%

[TK421]

11 minutes ago, London Best said:

I have never fired a pump action shotgun. Come to think of it, I have never seen anyone using one either. 
But I have heard it said that, in the hands of a shooter who is well used to a pump, they are faster to cycle than a semi auto and less prone to jams. 
Any thoughts on this from someone who can really use one?

Maybe the one I watched in action was just plain garbage, as there’s not a chance in a million that you’d of hit the particular simo pair I watched him try to shoot at. It was only just possible with a O/U. In fact I didn’t witness him hit the second bird (or many first) on this particular ESP layout. Plus the thing kept jamming up. I’d be over the moon if I turned up to a CPSA comp and everyone else was shooting with pump actions 😂 

Edited January 2, 2023 by TK421

[WalkedUp]

7 minutes ago, London Best said:

I have never fired a pump action shotgun. Come to think of it, I have never seen anyone using one either. 
But I have heard it said that, in the hands of a shooter who is well used to a pump, they are faster to cycle than a semi auto and less prone to jams. 
Any thoughts on this from someone who can really use one?

My pal is a veteran and ex-Police firearms safety officer. He is very sensible and safety conscious, his first choice is a pump.

In terms of speed we put on an informal clay day on the syndicate. He is lighting quick with it, and as an exhibition he does three in the gun and one in the hand... to smoke two pairs.

He uses a side by side for game. 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, TK421 said:

I’ve since posting shot at a couple of other clay grounds and asked this exact question, all owners stated and in some cases pointed me to the notice stating 2 cartridges ‘ONLY’ as you simply can’t cater for stupidity. All owners had stories of issues and near missed with one guy shooting his toes off and another shooting his car door. They also made comment on the fact the clays come in pairs. 
The reason for this thread was more relating to pump action, as opposed to semi auto, but the rule still stands for both at the grounds I shoot. The semi is almost certainly capable of hitting both targets, whereas what I witnessed with the pump, you’d struggle every time to hit the second, let alone get a third off. Simo pairs you’d only get one shot off leaving 2 in the chamber. It Felt more square peg round hole and to me looked blooming awkward to say the least. 

for clarity, from my part this isn’t any form of snobbery at all, what I and many others witnessed on that particular day looked and was simply unsafe use, the fact it was a pump I think further added to this. Some of this was down to the owner, some due to the design and purpose of the pump. To be fair the rest of that particular squad seemed to be having more fun with their O/U as they were actually hitting stuff. 

This is an open debate guys to discuss this, I genuinely can’t see any need to take a 3 shot pump to a dedicated clay ground other than to tit about, this being the case follow ground rules and stick to 2, if not go to somewhere that allows it. it’s always going to attract attention and differing opinion especially if the ground rules aren’t being followed, from those stood in the queue behind waiting for the stand to become vacant and the gun to be unjammed. 

As I’ve said, the rule about only two is down to etiquette mostly, and although I can understand some stating it as a safety aspect, there’s no logic to it.
There is no need to load more than two unless it’s a ‘full use of the gun flush’, where in fact it’s still only practical to load two because of the time it takes to load more, dependant on the size of magazine and the number in the flush. 

I don’t get the fire two and you’ve still a live one in the gun being a risk, because the same applies if you kill the first and the second is a no bird. Even if you only loaded two, you’ve still a live one either in the mag’ or the chamber, and it still requires a reload. 🤷‍♂️

If I had come across this scene, I would have gently reminded them that it was against shooting ground rules to load more than two, and would have offered to help with the problematic pump. 
I often take my S2 self loader to a clay ground, and my mate takes his S1, and sometimes I take a pump.  Like I’ve said , they’re as slick as snot if you know how to use one. Neither of us loads more than two. We aren’t ‘titting about’, we are enjoying our day out. 
It is NEVER a gun issue; safety is the responsibility of the person doing the shooting. If a person isn't safe with one type of mechanism then why would they be safer with another. 
As always, It’s all down to muzzle awareness and ensuring that gun is empty before you leave the stand. 
Comments such as ‘titting about’ just reinforce the snobbery issue, and I can’t see how loading only two in any type of mechanism is catering for stupidity. 

Edited January 2, 2023 by Scully
Grammar

[Westley]

Can I add to those who doubt the efficiency of a pump action that the local ground where I shoot has a young man who can operate a pump action almost as quickly as a semi auto and his proficiency with it outshoots most of those with more conventional guns. No doubt about it, the pump action in the RIGHT hands, is a very effective gun. However, they more often than not portray the John Wayne or Dirty Harry in a lot of people, as we have almost all witnessed. I certainly do not decry them, I just do not want to own one.

As an ex ground owner, I would welcome them, but keep a close eye on the user, until they proved their ability to use one. Ask yourself WHY it is the chosen weapon to accompany most USA Police Officers in a vehicle. They can hold various amounts of ammunition in the magazine, the gun is stored upright in the passenger side with the breech open, it is a simple matter of grab the gun, rack it once, and yer good to go  !

Edited January 2, 2023 by Westley

[Westley]

32 minutes ago, Westley said:

Can I add to those who doubt the efficiency of a pump action that the local ground where I shoot has a young man who can operate a pump action almost as quickly as a semi auto and his proficiency with it outshoots most of those with more conventional guns. No doubt about it, the pump action in the RIGHT hands, is a very effective gun. However, they more often than not portray the John Wayne or Dirty Harry in a lot of people, as we have almost all witnessed. I certainly do not decry them, I just do not want to own one.

As an ex ground owner, I would welcome them, but keep a close eye on the user, until they proved their ability to use one. Ask yourself WHY it is the chosen weapon to accompany most USA Police Officers in a vehicle. They can hold various amounts of ammunition in the magazine, the gun is stored upright in the passenger side with the breech open, it is a simple matter of grab the gun, rack it once, and yer good to go  !

Anyone who attends our local ground will recognise our group. We are the ones shouting 'PUMP' between shots, when one of our Senior members is giving his pump action an airing  !  😄

[TK421]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

Comments such as ‘titting about’ just reinforce the snobbery issue,

Why take this statement personally? It wasn’t directed at you? If some one is acting like a tit, they’re acting like a tit, no snobbery comes into it. if you were stood next to me along with the other 20 or so others waiting, you’d of agreed along with the rest of us that they were indeed acting like tits.  I’m certainly not calling you a tit or insinuating that you’re a tit for owning a pump action? although you’re reply to this and lack of understanding with regard to the context in which my statement was made is edging ever so slightly towards titardary 😉  I’m also far from a snob and no offence taken. 

as mentioned these chaps were loading 3 then shooting or attempting to shoot a 2 bird ESP pair, they rarely got one round off, then came the awkwardness of ‘send me another pair’.  as you state there’s simply no logic to doing that,  plus they couldn’t even hit one, ergo acting like a tit or as you said titting about.   

joking aside, I mentioned early on the issue only arises when dealing with idiots (tits) hence the need to have a blanket ground rule for everyone as you can’t cater for stupid. 
nobody should really take any offence by that statement, that is unless they are both an idiot and or stupid. This also applies to the use of any shotgun of course.  

 

maybe I should of called the thread ‘tits and clay grounds’ but this could of caused not only excitement for some, confusion for others. As you were chaps

Edited January 2, 2023 by TK421

[Scully]

1 hour ago, TK421 said:

Why take this statement personally? It wasn’t directed at you? If some one is acting like a tit, they’re acting like a tit, no snobbery comes into it. if you were stood next to me along with the other 20 or so others waiting, you’d of agreed along with the rest of us that they were indeed acting like tits.  I’m certainly not calling you a tit or insinuating that you’re a tit for owning a pump action? although you’re reply to this and lack of understanding with regard to the context in which my statement was made is edging ever so slightly towards titardary 😉  I’m also far from a snob and no offence taken. 

as mentioned these chaps were loading 3 then shooting or attempting to shoot a 2 bird ESP pair, they rarely got one round off, then came the awkwardness of ‘send me another pair’.  as you state there’s simply no logic to doing that,  plus they couldn’t even hit one, ergo acting like a tit or as you said titting about.   

joking aside, I mentioned early on the issue only arises when dealing with idiots (tits) hence the need to have a blanket ground rule for everyone as you can’t cater for stupid. 
nobody should really take any offence by that statement, that is unless they are both an idiot and or stupid. This also applies to the use of any shotgun of course.  

 

maybe I should of called the thread ‘tits and clay grounds’ but this could of caused not only excitement for some, confusion for others. As you were chaps

I haven’t taken it personally.
Like you say, you could have called the post ‘Tits and guns’, but you didn’t, you called it ‘Pump action at a clay ground’, then went on to complain about the use of pumps at clay grounds when really the mechanism is secondary to the issue of tittery. 
As it’s about a certain type of gun which I own being used at a clay ground, which it is obvious by the comments you’ve made you disapprove of, then I felt compelled to respond in their defence. I wasn’t the only one. Should no one respond? 
 

[TK421]

17 minutes ago, Scully said:

I haven’t taken it personally.
Like you say, you could have called the post ‘Tits and guns’, but you didn’t, you called it ‘Pump action at a clay ground’, then went on to complain about the use of pumps at clay grounds when really the mechanism is secondary to the issue of tittery. 
As it’s about a certain type of gun which I own being used at a clay ground, which it is obvious by the comments you’ve made you disapprove of, then I felt compelled to respond in their defence. I wasn’t the only one. Should no one respond? 
 

Again you seem to be digressing from the point I made in my last point for some reason. This isn’t about you or your gun, it was about the tits using the gun and more so a question on ground etiquette.  I’ll reiterate it again,  I have no issue with anyone using any type shotgun responsibly, safely  and considerately.  
There is also no need to defend something that isn’t under attack, shoot whatever the fk you want, just see my comment above on how to best do so. 
It appears through semantics you have misinterpreted my comments on the pump action. 
again for clarity and as we’re talking about Pump actions in this thread, I have no issue whatsoever with the pump action shotgun, i take issue when it’s in the hands of a tit. 

[Scully]

31 minutes ago, TK421 said:

Again you seem to be digressing from the point I made in my last point for some reason. This isn’t about you or your gun, it was about the tits using the gun and more so a question on ground etiquette.  I’ll reiterate it again,  I have no issue with anyone using any type shotgun responsibly, safely  and considerately.  
There is also no need to defend something that isn’t under attack, shoot whatever the fk you want, just see my comment above on how to best do so. 
It appears through semantics you have misinterpreted my comments on the pump action. 
again for clarity and as we’re talking about Pump actions in this thread, I have no issue whatsoever with the pump action shotgun, i take issue when it’s in the hands of a tit. 

No, I’m not digressing at all. You entitled your post ‘pump action at a clay ground’ and not ‘tits at a clay ground’. You’ve made it apparent throughout your comments, that you think pumps are unsuitable for clay grounds due to an ability to cope with sim’ pairs. Maybe you should read back through your own comments? 
I would think ‘tits’ would struggle with any type of mechanism. 
You also asked for ‘thoughts and experiences’, which you’ve got, regarding ‘tits’ and the suitability of pumps at clay grounds, but seem unhappy about some of them. 

[TK421]

37 minutes ago, Scully said:

No, I’m not digressing at all. You entitled your post ‘pump action at a clay ground’ and not ‘tits at a clay ground’. You’ve made it apparent throughout your comments, that you think pumps are unsuitable for clay grounds due to an ability to cope with sim’ pairs. Maybe you should read back through your own comments? 
I would think ‘tits’ would struggle with any type of mechanism. 
You also asked for ‘thoughts and experiences’, which you’ve got, regarding ‘tits’ and the suitability of pumps at clay grounds, but seem unhappy about some of them. 

Ok mate whatever you say. You’re right I’m wrong and all again is well in the world  f f s. 

Edited January 2, 2023 by TK421

[humperdingle]

Aah, the pump-action. If a film maker wants a “menacing weapon”, the pump-action will be there… and probably chambered three times before any shots are fired.

I rather enjoy shooting a pump action, although (more due to my forgetting to cycle the action for a quick second shot) I’m not great at hitting targets with them!

[Newbie to this]

Last time I saw someone using a pump action on clays, he was very competent with it, we were following them from stand to stand, and he must've hit 80-90 out of 100. He was shooting all stands as sim pairs while others in his group were shooting the stands on report.

I didn't see any safety reason to worry about him shooting with a pump. He was only loading 2 as per the grounds rules.

It was a pleasure to watch.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Newbie to this

[Scully]

29 minutes ago, TK421 said:

Ok mate whatever you say. You’re right I’m wrong and all again is well in the world  f f s. 

It’s not about being right or wrong though is it; it’s about tolerance….even for ‘tits’ with guns we don’t approve of. 
We’re all supposed to be in this together.
You never know, you may have made some good friends if you’d offered to lend a hand and give advice. Chances are the user was ‘short stroking’, a common fault by an unfamiliar user with that type of firearm. Easily remedied. 
 

Edited January 2, 2023 by Scully

[HantsRob]

On 31/12/2022 at 09:32, Westley said:

How are people going to get into our sport if we do not encourage them and I was always led to believe that Christmas is a 'Family' time  ?

Great comments  I agree that it is a good family time and plenty that just want to enjoy a day out. I was at Bisley today and when a stand was super slow we just skipped it and came back later. Simples. Ironically the one stand that seemed to take forever was the simplest of pairs, but they were careful and cautious and not a bother.

 

9 hours ago, Gordon R said:

I have shot at many, many clay shoots all over the country. I have only ever seen singles and a pair, other than a flush. Why would anyone want to load more than two for a pair is beyond me.  Whilst some obviously disagree, I believe it is unsafe. Ask any ground owner if they are happy with you loading more than two. I suspect I know the answer. Most have a sign up telling shooters specifically not to load more than two.

There are plenty of clay grounds near me that have a stand with up to 8 birds off the one stand. Whilst it doesn't say you have to shoot only in pairs, it fits perfectly for a three shot round. I don't disagree with ask the ground owner, and I'd usually only do it on a stand with multiple birds to add to my enjoyment as a paying and safe customer. I have done it on a pair of birds for an ABA or BAB set, but again usually just check at reception. I know of at least 3 grounds close to me that don't mind 3 shots, for 3 birds, if you use a flag between stands. 

Spitfire locally specifically only allows 2 shots. I have asked for permission and was politely told no, so stuck to pairs.

No drama, llama.

As for 3 shot, my example I've just realised is what a TGS video did at Lains, Hampshire (near Thruxton) with 3 shots off of a tower with 8 birds. 2:20 with Dave. Down side to that ground is you can only use carts you've bought from them!:

On 31/12/2022 at 12:04, London Best said:

No, of course not. It’s just that when I’ve been clay shooting you pay for what  is counted on the gismo afterwards and shoot what you fancy.

LB, I think the missing piece here is some sites don't have promatic or a count up system, and just have buttons without any traceability. So, the example used was for a shoot where it just has a button and no mechanism to stop you once your card runs out. 

If it was promatic then I would totally agree it doesn't matter if they do 100 clays on 1 stand if they are respectful to other shooters to allow a chance to shoot it.

7 hours ago, London Best said:

I have never fired a pump action shotgun. Come to think of it, I have never seen anyone using one either. 
But I have heard it said that, in the hands of a shooter who is well used to a pump, they are faster to cycle than a semi auto and less prone to jams. 
Any thoughts on this from someone who can really use one?

I have used one and don't like it. I believe you can cycle it pretty quickly, but for me there's a fair amount of muzzle movement and harder to get back on the bird. But yes, absolutely rarely jam as you don't need gas or inertia.

I haven't seen one used in practical shotgun which IMHO means they can't be as fast as a semi

[Catamong]

I'm surprised to see the words "snobbery" and "etiquette" in replies to this post, as if this was a post about shooting game with a pump..?

I'm also very surprised that some posters can't see what's wrong with loading 3 shells on a clay stand where only 2 birds are thrown, they obviously don't have much experience in clay shooting.?

The fact is that pumps are not used by clay shooters in the UK, as you need a very high degree of skill to use one properly.

There are, I believe, a few shooters in the US who are regular pump users, but they are experts, and mainly sponsored trick shooters.

I'm not aware of anybody in the UK who uses a pump in Registered Sporting events, I've never seen it, and doubt I ever will.

Most shooters that turn up at straw bale shoots with pumps have very little experience in shooting and safe gun handling and are consequently considered a danger to themselves and others, that's why most grounds have sensibly banned their use.

I well remember back in the mid '80's at a 50 bird open re-entry competition at a ground local to me, a group of young lads in front of us on one stand were sharing a pump, the gun was passed from one guy to the next, who loaded it, called "pull" on a simmo going away pair, he only fired one shot and was clearly struggling to cycle the next round, to my horror he swung round with the gun at waist height, pointing it straight towards me, with his finger on the trigger and at the same time trying to crank it, whilst calling to his mates, "I can't get this to work.?"

Fortunately, one of his mates pushed the muzzle up into the air before I had time to grab the gun, but it could have been a very nasty incident for all concerned.

Cat.😎

[HantsRob]

16 minutes ago, Catamong said:

Fortunately, one of his mates pushed the muzzle up into the air before I had time to grab the gun, but it could have been a very nasty incident for all concerned.

Cat.😎

would have left only 8 lives left, eh?

I've always wondered what the recoil is like on a sawn off shotgun, shooting from the hip. It was quite the rage in movies in the 80's, and has certainly fallen out of favour by the baddies. John Wick had a nice Benelli M4, but not cut down! 

[Windswept]

36 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

I haven't seen one used in practical shotgun which IMHO means they can't be as fast as a semi

Plenty of people use them for PSG, they even have their own class. I wouldn't say there's much difference in speed.

[terence]

9 hours ago, TK421 said:

I’ve since posting shot at a couple of other clay grounds and asked this exact question, all owners stated and in some cases pointed me to the notice stating 2 cartridges ‘ONLY’ as you simply can’t cater for stupidity. All owners had stories of issues and near missed with one guy shooting his toes off and another shooting his car door. They also made comment on the fact the clays come in pairs. 
The reason for this thread was more relating to pump action, as opposed to semi auto, but the rule still stands for both at the grounds I shoot. The semi is almost certainly capable of hitting both targets, whereas what I witnessed with the pump, you’d struggle every time to hit the second, let alone get a third off. Simo pairs you’d only get one shot off leaving 2 in the chamber. It Felt more square peg round hole and to me looked blooming awkward to say the least. 

for clarity, from my part this isn’t any form of snobbery at all, what I and many others witnessed on that particular day looked and was simply unsafe use, the fact it was a pump I think further added to this. Some of this was down to the owner, some due to the design and purpose of the pump. To be fair the rest of that particular squad seemed to be having more fun with their O/U as they were actually hitting stuff. 

This is an open debate guys to discuss this, I genuinely can’t see any need to take a 3 shot pump to a dedicated clay ground other than to tit about, this being the case follow ground rules and stick to 2, if not go to somewhere that allows it. it’s always going to attract attention and differing opinion especially if the ground rules aren’t being followed, from those stood in the queue behind waiting for the stand to become vacant and the gun to be unjammed. 

A pump can be shot as quick as any in the right hands my best score is 40 with pump and 42 with o/u out of 50 only load 2 in pump may not be great scores but im happy with them

[Westley]

Poor gun handling and lack of muzzle awareness is most certainly NOT confined to none break open guns. Week in and week out I see idiots waving their guns around in an effort to eject empties into the bins provided. Their muzzle awareness leaves a lot to be desired. One day they will get a 'no bird', fire just 1 shot and then be waving a gun around, with a live round up the spout.

[London Best]

35 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

I've always wondered what the recoil is like on a sawn off shotgun, shooting from the hip. 

Shooting doves in South Africa, one farmer decided to join me for the afternoon. He could not find the keys to his gun cabinet (which he told me contained 67 guns), so he turned out with his ‘under the bed burglar protection gun’. This was a Harrington & Richardson single barrel 12 bore, sawn off at the fore end tip, and also at the pistol grip. It certainly looked to have fierce recoil, but the old chap could fairly consistently hit doves with it, shot two handed from the hip!

 

1 hour ago, Catamong said:

There are, I believe, a few shooters in the US who are regular pump users, but they are experts, and mainly sponsored trick shooters.

 

Cat.😎

The pump action has always been considered the standard shotgun in the U.S.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Catamong said:

I'm surprised to see the words "snobbery" and "etiquette" in replies to this post, as if this was a post about shooting game with a pump..?

I'm also very surprised that some posters can't see what's wrong with loading 3 shells on a clay stand where only 2 birds are thrown, they obviously don't have much experience in clay shooting.?

The fact is that pumps are not used by clay shooters in the UK, as you need a very high degree of skill to use one properly.

There are, I believe, a few shooters in the US who are regular pump users, but they are experts, and mainly sponsored trick shooters.

I'm not aware of anybody in the UK who uses a pump in Registered Sporting events, I've never seen it, and doubt I ever will.

Most shooters that turn up at straw bale shoots with pumps have very little experience in shooting and safe gun handling and are consequently considered a danger to themselves and others, that's why most grounds have sensibly banned their use.

I well remember back in the mid '80's at a 50 bird open re-entry competition at a ground local to me, a group of young lads in front of us on one stand were sharing a pump, the gun was passed from one guy to the next, who loaded it, called "pull" on a simmo going away pair, he only fired one shot and was clearly struggling to cycle the next round, to my horror he swung round with the gun at waist height, pointing it straight towards me, with his finger on the trigger and at the same time trying to crank it, whilst calling to his mates, "I can't get this to work.?"

Fortunately, one of his mates pushed the muzzle up into the air before I had time to grab the gun, but it could have been a very nasty incident for all concerned.

Cat.😎

Etiquette is simply another term for being polite as far as I know, and snobbery exists throughout any and all shooting disciplines in my experience. 
Your near miss experience with the pump gunner was down to the individual and not the mechanism, although I have to admit I witness the best safety practises amongst dedicated/experienced clay shooters. Saying that, it never fails to surprise me how many of those I would expect to know, ( from whatever discipline ) who are absolutely clueless when it comes to safely withdrawing or returning a gun to its slip. 

[HantsRob]

1 hour ago, Windswept said:

Plenty of people use them for PSG, they even have their own class. I wouldn't say there's much difference in speed.

I stand corrected. I've just never seen it at the local ground then

50 minutes ago, Westley said:

Poor gun handling and lack of muzzle awareness is most certainly NOT confined to none break open guns. Week in and week out I see idiots waving their guns around in an effort to eject empties into the bins provided. Their muzzle awareness leaves a lot to be desired. One day they will get a 'no bird', fire just 1 shot and then be waving a gun around, with a live round up the spout.

Yup. There seems to be a growing number of people that start to break OU barrels and twist the gun to "fire"/eject the empties into the bin, and like you say sometimes with only 1 shot and then sweep a crowd with barrels.

I wouldn't call it bad etiquette, it just looks wrong to me to unload that way and doesn't seem to be gun safe.

49 minutes ago, London Best said:

Shooting doves in South Africa, one farmer decided to join me for the afternoon. He could not find the keys to his gun cabinet (which he told me contained 67 guns), so he turned out with his ‘under the bed burglar protection gun’. This was a Harrington & Richardson single barrel 12 bore, sawn off at the fore end tip, and also at the pistol grip. It certainly looked to have fierce recoil, but the old chap could fairly consistently hit doves with it, shot two handed from the hip!

How did you shoot with it?