PeterHenry Posted February 24, 2023 Report Share Posted February 24, 2023 (edited) Dear Pigeon Watch, I have noted that there has of late been an awful lot of discussion regarding the potential lead ban / use of steel shot. In my experience, steel shot kills perfectly well. That said, I have decided (with the assistance of a working gunsmith) to do an experiment. The previously mentioned gunsmith has sourced a 2 3/4" Spanish Boxlock Non Ejector (a Zabala Spartan no less) and we have taken pictures inside the bores - with the view that I will shoot standard steel through it, and use it for pigeon and clays through the summer. I will post updates here - but if you want to follow on Instagram, my profile is https://www.instagram.com/jack_snipe_uk/ Best, Peter Edited February 24, 2023 by PeterHenry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted February 24, 2023 Report Share Posted February 24, 2023 what is the experiment....what are you looking for ?.........what are the chokings of the barell ...what are the internal diameters.......are you using fibre wad or plastic wad...?...what weight load ?...... all these need to be put to bed before you start ............. are you testing for damage to the barrel or the choke end...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted February 24, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2023 (edited) 18 minutes ago, ditchman said: what is the experiment....what are you looking for ?.........what are the chokings of the barell ...what are the internal diameters.......are you using fibre wad or plastic wad...?...what weight load ?...... all these need to be put to bed before you start ............. are you testing for damage to the barrel or the choke end...? I can't tell you the bore diameters - what we are looking for are scouring marks in the barrels, but we will also note any significant bulges. The chokes are tight 1/4 and 1/2. The barrels have been looked over and found to be free of defects. Regarding wads / loads - I am going to use whatever I come across in standard steel. I realise this isn't the most scientific of approches, but it does mimic what the average shooter will put through their gun in real life. Edited February 24, 2023 by PeterHenry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncher Posted February 24, 2023 Report Share Posted February 24, 2023 I can save you the time. It’ll be fine and nothing will happen. I and loads of others has been using old guns with steel for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted February 24, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2023 1 minute ago, muncher said: I can save you the time. It’ll be fine and nothing will happen. I and loads of others has been using old guns with steel for years. But won't it be nice to have something to point to, one way or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 24, 2023 Report Share Posted February 24, 2023 6 minutes ago, muncher said: I can save you the time. It’ll be fine and nothing will happen. I and loads of others has been using old guns with steel for years. This. I’ve also been using steel ( HP steel albeit through plastic wads ) in an old 1980’s Winchester 101 choked at 1/4 & 1/2. The gun has since been sold and there were no marks in the barrels at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiler23 Posted February 24, 2023 Report Share Posted February 24, 2023 Iv been putting hp loads and big steel through a tight choked sxs for years... Everything still looking like it should too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flippermaj Posted February 24, 2023 Report Share Posted February 24, 2023 Hi Peter, Not wishing to dampen your admirable aims but such tests have already been done by Nick Horton on the TGS you tube channel. Watch that before you start? best of luck. Flipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted February 24, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2023 (edited) 25 minutes ago, flippermaj said: Hi Peter, Not wishing to dampen your admirable aims but such tests have already been done by Nick Horton on the TGS you tube channel. Watch that before you start? best of luck. Flipper Thanks for that - I have watched the Nick Horton / TGS videos, but I noticed that he used HP Steel and the gun did develop bulges. I know he explained it as such, but I thought it would be good to do my own test, using only standard steel - and to provide photos of the inside of the barrels as well. Ideally, I would like to either put people's minds at rest, or alert them to a problem - I think photos are a good way to do that. There's a lot of hearsay / misunderstanding on the Internet, and a lot of things that aren't quite what they seem. I remember Nick Horton (in the TGS videos) pointing out that the attached photo wasn't actually a shotgun barrel at all - yet it keeps cropping up as such in Google searches for 'steel shot damage to barrels'. (Personally, and for the avoidence of doubt, I don't doubt NH is correct re that picture) I would like to do a completely above board thread (and I'm not suggesting TGS / Nick Hortons video wasn't) documenting what (if anything) standard steel will do to an old gun. Edited February 24, 2023 by PeterHenry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted February 24, 2023 Report Share Posted February 24, 2023 What’s the weight of the gun? Barrel wall thickness bore measurement if this is to be a proper experiment this is a minimum requirement also choke to bore different just my thoughts of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted February 24, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2023 (edited) Photos to provide a little more background into why I have decided to do the test 2 hours ago, ditchman said: what is the experiment....what are you looking for ?.........what are the chokings of the barell ...what are the internal diameters.......are you using fibre wad or plastic wad...?...what weight load ?...... all these need to be put to bed before you start ............. are you testing for damage to the barrel or the choke end...? 1 hour ago, Old farrier said: What’s the weight of the gun? Barrel wall thickness bore measurement if this is to be a proper experiment this is a minimum requirement also choke to bore different just my thoughts of Both points noted - I will get back to you when I have had it mesured Edited February 24, 2023 by PeterHenry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrepin Posted February 25, 2023 Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 According to teague chokes, speaking at a review on the BSS stated, never fire any steel through anything tighter than 1/4 choke regardless of type of barrel. He then explained why. I'll try and re find the clip, think it might have been Lloyd Patterson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted February 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 10 minutes ago, Centrepin said: According to teague chokes, speaking at a review on the BSS stated, never fire any steel through anything tighter than 1/4 choke regardless of type of barrel. He then explained why. I'll try and re find the clip, think it might have been Lloyd Patterson. I've heard that in relation to superior steel cartridges - I think attributed to the London Proof House? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishop Posted February 25, 2023 Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 9 minutes ago, Centrepin said: According to teague chokes, speaking at a review on the BSS stated, never fire any steel through anything tighter than 1/4 choke regardless of type of barrel. He then explained why. I'll try and re find the clip, think it might have been Lloyd Patterson. For all the thousands of older guns with tighter chokes out there that have ,and continue to fire steel shot, to find one that's been genuinely damaged would be difficult --unless it was through a negligent owner using poorly loaded cartridges .I have heard about bulges since the start of this debate but never have i came across a gun that's been damaged by firing properly loaded steel shot. And if i did im sure i could also find a gun damaged by firing lead shot if the owner had ,again ,used poorly loaded rounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrepin Posted February 25, 2023 Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 For some unknown reason my phone refuses to allow me to reply to the post by Peter Henry. I'll add it here and hope a moderator can merge it. The statement about chokes and steel starts at 46:05 and is made decisively at 50:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted February 25, 2023 Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 Thank you for posting the video. It was very worthwhile watching the part you mention about steel shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted February 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Centrepin said: For some unknown reason my phone refuses to allow me to reply to the post by Peter Henry. I'll add it here and hope a moderator can merge it. The statement about chokes and steel starts at 46:05 and is made decisively at 50:00 Very interesting - especially about the rippling at more than 1/4 choke re high performance steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrepin Posted February 25, 2023 Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 It makes interesting listening when someone as respected as Teague makes such a statement and explains why. I'm certainly reviewing the fact I use 3/8th 3/8th in my guns but with lead only at present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B B Posted February 25, 2023 Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 The steel shot not to be put through tight choke thing should have died a death 20 +years ago, but here we are still hearing it today from people who really should no better. There are Thousands of older full and extra full shotguns that have shot steel for decades with no ill effect. add to this multi chokes made with even tighter restrictions for steel shot that are screwed in to older guns made pree 1999 and steel in wildfowling in the uk and before that in some other countries. Its just not a problem, any issues that have ever been seen around a few of these aftermarket chokes as been associated with less than tight factory accepted Tolerance control on barrels often running old mobil choke systems or similar. Even the prof house here has no restriction on choke constriction with standard steel shot loads. I think its time to just move on, steel is what it is if it has to be used just use it there is nothing scary hidden round the corner not even skeletons in any cupboards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted February 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, B B said: The steel shot not to be put through tight choke thing should have died a death 20 +years ago, but here we are still hearing it today from people who really should no better. There are Thousands of older full and extra full shotguns that have shot steel for decades with no ill effect. add to this multi chokes made with even tighter restrictions for steel shot that are screwed in to older guns made pree 1999 and steel in wildfowling in the uk and before that in some other countries. Its just not a problem, any issues that have ever been seen around a few of these aftermarket chokes as been associated with less than tight factory accepted Tolerance control on barrels often running old mobil choke systems or similar. Even the prof house here has no restriction on choke constriction with standard steel shot loads. I think its time to just move on, steel is what it is if it has to be used just use it there is nothing scary hidden round the corner not even skeletons in any cupboards. Did you watch the Teague bit in the video above? Its interesting - especially when you combine it with the statement on Westley Richards website about lead / steel shot (Westley Richards, I think I am correct in saying, now own Teauge). I don't doubt what you are saying regarding having to use steel in the future - and I'm not against it. I would far rarther loose lead than loose shooting, if that's the way the winds are blowing. In another gun, I have marks down the inside of the barrel that I only noticed after using standard steel. I'm not bold enough to say they were caused by the use of steel - only that my noticing them coincided with me using steel with that gun (a gun that meets all the recommended requirements to use standard steel). So, if perhaps there is a line to be toed with older guns and the use of certain types of non toxic shot, its worth looking into and documenting. Non toxic shot is the future - but if an informed decision let's someone decide to use Bio Ammo Blue or Bismuth in a dearly loved older gun, than accidentally damage it with steel, I think that's worth while. Edited February 25, 2023 by PeterHenry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted February 25, 2023 Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 could it be that older shotguns have longer less progressive choke constritions...so the shot ball has longer to assume the shape of the internals of the barrell... where-as newer screw in chkes could be a problem as the shot ball has a very short time to assume the sudden change in barrel internal dimension........ just a thought / theroy ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrepin Posted February 25, 2023 Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 Quite possibly, also nobody really knows the quality of the steel barrels made years ago, which may or may not be stronger than those of today's finer tolerances and machined to death newer guns. Most of the older guns have already outlived the original owners and the better ones will outlive most of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave at kelton Posted February 25, 2023 Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 But the point is that Teague is talking about HP steel. There is no reason to use anything other than standard steel in older game guns. I am perfectly happy with the Eley Ecosteel, as I have said a number of times in the past. Use this and the likelihood is you will have no issues with your barrels, particularly at half choke or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted February 25, 2023 Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 21 hours ago, PeterHenry said: Thanks for that - I have watched the Nick Horton / TGS videos, but I noticed that he used HP Steel and the gun did develop bulges. I know he explained it as such, but I thought it would be good to do my own test, using only standard steel - and to provide photos of the inside of the barrels as well. Ideally, I would like to either put people's minds at rest, or alert them to a problem - I think photos are a good way to do that. There's a lot of hearsay / misunderstanding on the Internet, and a lot of things that aren't quite what they seem. I remember Nick Horton (in the TGS videos) pointing out that the attached photo wasn't actually a shotgun barrel at all - yet it keeps cropping up as such in Google searches for 'steel shot damage to barrels'. (Personally, and for the avoidence of doubt, I don't doubt NH is correct re that picture) I would like to do a completely above board thread (and I'm not suggesting TGS / Nick Hortons video wasn't) documenting what (if anything) standard steel will do to an old gun. Shame you did not find an old gun with 65mm chambers. Looking down that barrel, it appears your above board thread has already started ! Later this year I plan to take my Westley Richards back to the makers and ask their opinion on my using the gun with steel shot. I shall report the outcome in due course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted February 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Westley said: Shame you did not find an old gun with 65mm chambers. Looking down that barrel, it appears your above board thread has already started ! Later this year I plan to take my Westley Richards back to the makers and ask their opinion on my using the gun with steel shot. I shall report the outcome in due course. I do have a couple of old, quite plain 65mm English guns, but my heart would not let me use them - it would be a sin in my estimation. I can though save you the time re Westley Richards - https://www.westleyrichards.com/theexplora/westley-richards-recommends-bismuth/ Edited February 25, 2023 by PeterHenry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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