Manchester police

[Loki]

Hi

May I suggest leaving a copy of any Certificate in the glovebox risque - leaves your address and what kit in the hands of someone who may be chancing/pilfering in your vehicle.....

I keep copies in every slip, so naer a chance not to have on hand. Having said this it is for Feds (who have access to National Firearms Licencing Management System?) to accept a copy or not........just saying.

L

 

[old'un]

22 minutes ago, Loki said:

Hi

May I suggest leaving a copy of any Certificate in the glovebox risque - leaves your address and what kit in the hands of someone who may be chancing/pilfering in your vehicle.....

I keep copies in every slip, so naer a chance not to have on hand. Having said this it is for Feds (who have access to National Firearms Licencing Management System?) to accept a copy or not........just saying.

L

 

I never carry any certs with me, but if you feel the need to why not just take a photo of your certs, only ever had one encounter with the police whilst out shooting and they knew I was a gun/cert owner before they approached me.

As you say they have access to all the info they need about you from your car registration number.

[marsh man]

2 hours ago, old'un said:

I never carry any certs with me, but if you feel the need to why not just take a photo of your certs, only ever had one encounter with the police whilst out shooting and they knew I was a gun/cert owner before they approached me.

As you say they have access to all the info they need about you from your car registration number.

I have also only had the police come to see me once whilst out shooting and that was because the horse owner was worried the gunfire was frightening her horse that was 300 yards plus away from where I was shooting , the policeman asked if I had my s g c with me and at the time I didn't , he told me it was against the law not to have it with me even though he called the firearm dept to make sure I was the owner of the gun I was using , ever since then I have had a photo copy of it in the glove box .

[JohnfromUK]

Personally I don't carry my SGC - and on purpose.  IF the police want to check up, it is a matter of seconds for them to do so via their radio/comms.  IF they choose to be awkward (and it happens) having an SGC won't help much.

However, IF the SGC (or copy) was to get lost and fall into the wrong hands, it contains far too much information - including full postal address and a list of guns present.

In the times I have had unexpected meets with the police (usually as a callout when I was then a keyholder for some business premises), they knew all about me before they even arrived.

[marsh man]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Personally I don't carry my SGC - and on purpose.  IF the police want to check up, it is a matter of seconds for them to do so via their radio/comms.  IF they choose to be awkward (and it happens) having an SGC won't help much.

However, IF the SGC (or copy) was to get lost and fall into the wrong hands, it contains far too much information - including full postal address and a list of guns present.

In the times I have had unexpected meets with the police (usually as a callout when I was then a keyholder for some business premises), they knew all about me before they even arrived.

I can fully understand what you are saying and it would be very helpfull if someone with far more knowledge than me can tell us what is the law in having your s g c on you when out shooting as I was told by the police it was against the law in not having it 

[JohnfromUK]

9 minutes ago, marsh man said:

I can fully understand what you are saying and it would be very helpful if someone with far more knowledge than me can tell us what is the law in having your s g c on you when out shooting as I was told by the police it was against the law in not having it 

I have to admit to being both unsure on the law (as I think most are) and also behaving slightly inconsistently myself.

First 'the law'.   As I understand it the police may 'seize' your firearm if they believe that you (1) are 'unlawfully in possession' or being in possession or (2)  'constitutes a danger to ..... '.  Showing the certificate covers off the 'unlawfully in possession', but NOT the 'constitutes a danger to ..... ' - so even with certificate, they could say there was a 'danger to' safety and seize.  As far as I am aware nothing in law says you must carry your certificate when carrying a gun, but I accept there is a marginally higher risk of the inconvenience of seizure, however it is (or should be) easy enough for the police to check up instantly that you are a licensed person..

Second - the practicality.   IF I am around/near home and out for the day or part thereof, and will be using my vehicle around on a shoot, with guests in it, dogs etc.  - I don't carry the certificate.  It is (or should be) easy enough for the police to check up instantly that you are a licensed person.  I do have my certificate number with my at all times.  IF my gun was seized, being local, sorting it out should be relatively easy taking the SGC to the police station.  Rather inconsistently, IF I am away and staying for a few days (for example a Scottish sporting trip) I do take my SCG, but keep it very safely a locked case in my room (private house).  There are various reasons for this - one being that I might need to purchase ammunition, the other being that retrieving a 'seized' gun from the other end of the country could be a real pain!

The potential worry of having a missing list of guns held at my address means that I am very careful about the SGC (or any copies) and don't like to leave it anywhere it could get accidentally mislaid or lost (car, guncase etc.)

[Rewulf]

33 minutes ago, marsh man said:

I can fully understand what you are saying and it would be very helpfull if someone with far more knowledge than me can tell us what is the law in having your s g c on you when out shooting as I was told by the police it was against the law in not having it 

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/carry-my-shotgun-certificate-23493

[marsh man]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

I have to admit to being both unsure on the law (as I think most are) and also behaving slightly inconsistently myself.

First 'the law'.   As I understand it the police may 'seize' your firearm if they believe that you (1) are 'unlawfully in possession' or being in possession or (2)  'constitutes a danger to ..... '.  Showing the certificate covers off the 'unlawfully in possession', but NOT the 'constitutes a danger to ..... ' - so even with certificate, they could say there was a 'danger to' safety and seize.  As far as I am aware nothing in law says you must carry your certificate when carrying a gun, but I accept there is a marginally higher risk of the inconvenience of seizure, however it is (or should be) easy enough for the police to check up instantly that you are a licensed person..

Second - the practicality.   IF I am around/near home and out for the day or part thereof, and will be using my vehicle around on a shoot, with guests in it, dogs etc.  - I don't carry the certificate.  It is (or should be) easy enough for the police to check up instantly that you are a licensed person.  I do have my certificate number with my at all times.  IF my gun was seized, being local, sorting it out should be relatively easy taking the SGC to the police station.  Rather inconsistently, IF I am away and staying for a few days (for example a Scottish sporting trip) I do take my SCG, but keep it very safely a locked case in my room (private house).  There are various reasons for this - one being that I might need to purchase ammunition, the other being that retrieving a 'seized' gun from the other end of the country could be a real pain!

The potential worry of having a missing list of guns held at my address means that I am very careful about the SGC (or any copies) and don't like to leave it anywhere it could get accidentally mislaid or lost (car, guncase etc.)

 

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/carry-my-shotgun-certificate-23493

Many THANKS to you both for clarifying the situation , I dare say it could be a case of who stop you on the day and what actions they would take .    MM

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, marsh man said:

 

Many THANKS to you both for clarifying the situation , I dare say it could be a case of who stop you on the day and what actions they would take .    MM

Thanks; as a slight discourse, what I would like to see is a two part document;

1. A card like a driving license to carry with you and having FAC/SGC number(s), issuing force, validity date(s) and designating as SGC, FAC, or both, BUT NOT a list of guns held, or any address.
2. A back up paperwork - much as now and to be used when buying and selling guns, and for FAC items, ammunition.  This would i.nclude the holder's address and list items held, but could be kept at home safely except when purchasing guns, of listed ammunition.

Driving licenses used to be done this way with the paper copy having endorsements etc.  They have now dropped the paper copy as police can (allegedly) access records on line, but for SGC/FAC, and sale/purchase transaction and FAC ammunition would need access to the paper copy.

[Bigbob]

On 27/07/2023 at 09:22, old'un said:

what a waste of police time, totally over the top reaction to hearing the sound of shooting in the countryside, thats why I have the name and phone number of every farm I shoot on.

Same here but despite having a folder with written permissions dated in the car the police take great delight in phoning a farmer in the wee hours if they see you lamping .

I now never carry any of my certs with me if they want to check they can radio it in , If they check out your car you often hear the reply back that you have firearms 

One time a mate and i where parked in the entrance to a gate glassing a hill and a police car pulled in beside us and asked what we where doing my mate explained and said would you like to see my certificate ?. the officer took it out the wallet opened it up never looked at it and handed it back ,My mate said you not going to fold it back up ?, Nope was the reply i am off for my tea LOL 

[old'un]

25 minutes ago, Bigbob said:

Same here but despite having a folder with written permissions dated in the car the police take great delight in phoning a farmer in the wee hours if they see you lamping .

I now never carry any of my certs with me if they want to check they can radio it in , If they check out your car you often hear the reply back that you have firearms 

One time a mate and i where parked in the entrance to a gate glassing a hill and a police car pulled in beside us and asked what we where doing my mate explained and said would you like to see my certificate ?. the officer took it out the wallet opened it up never looked at it and handed it back ,My mate said you not going to fold it back up ?, Nope was the reply i am off for my tea LOL 

I have only ever had the police approach me once in all the years I have been shooting.

I was parked on a stubble field about 100 yards from the gate, I then noticed a BMW X5 in the gateway to the field, it stopped there for about 5 minutes or so then drove down the field and pulled up next to me, he asked if I had permission to be on the field, I said yes, I have the farmers number if you wish to call, he said not necessary, can you confirm your name and address, which I did, he said ok thank you, enjoy your shooting and off he went.

I never mentioned shooting to him but he knew I possibly had a gun/s in the car by what he said.

[Newbie to this]

46 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Thanks; as a slight discourse, what I would like to see is a two part document;

1. A card like a driving license to carry with you and having FAC/SGC number(s), issuing force, validity date(s) and designating as SGC, FAC, or both, BUT NOT a list of guns held, or any address.
2. A back up paperwork - much as now and to be used when buying and selling guns, and for FAC items, ammunition.  This would i.nclude the holder's address and list items held, but could be kept at home safely except when purchasing guns, of listed ammunition.

Driving licenses used to be done this way with the paper copy having endorsements etc.  They have now dropped the paper copy as police can (allegedly) access records on line, but for SGC/FAC, and sale/purchase transaction and FAC ammunition would need access to the paper copy.

Far too sensible 

[bluesj]

I always have my fac and sgc with me at work, but fully expect to sped time in the cells if stopped by the old bill during the day.

If I my certificates with their bosses signature on them what more can i do!? 

[marsh man]

1 hour ago, Bigbob said:

Same here but despite having a folder with written permissions dated in the car the police take great delight in phoning a farmer in the wee hours if they see you lamping .

I now never carry any of my certs with me if they want to check they can radio it in , If they check out your car you often hear the reply back that you have firearms 

 

Like many others no doubt , I thought it was acceptable to leave your s g c locked safely away in your gun cabinet and if asked to produce them if you were stopped by the police whilst out shooting you would have so many days to take all the paper work up to the police station to be checked over , this I have now learnt is not the case and when stopped a few years ago I was told by the village policeman you must have it with you , I dare say there are police officers about who are tottally against blood sports the same as many members of the public , if I , or anyone else had been stopped by one of these police officers , would they been as lenient ?. I very much doubt it .

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 hours ago, marsh man said:

Many THANKS to you both for clarifying the situation , I dare say it could be a case of who stop you on the day and what actions they would take .    MM

Whoever stops you has to abide by the law and have good reason.

[HantsRob]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Thanks; as a slight discourse, what I would like to see is a two part document;

1. A card like a driving license to carry with you and having FAC/SGC number(s), issuing force, validity date(s) and designating as SGC, FAC, or both, BUT NOT a list of guns held, or any address.
2. A back up paperwork - much as now and to be used when buying and selling guns, and for FAC items, ammunition.  This would i.nclude the holder's address and list items held, but could be kept at home safely except when purchasing guns, of listed ammunition.

Driving licenses used to be done this way with the paper copy having endorsements etc.  They have now dropped the paper copy as police can (allegedly) access records on line, but for SGC/FAC, and sale/purchase transaction and FAC ammunition would need access to the paper copy.

The idea of a card and paper counterpart will not particularly do anything to help in this situation. In this clip they had their certificates, so it wouldn't have helped them.

I get your point is a photo identity card without details, but this really wouldn't help. The Police would have a firearms flag against your PNC record, which is a nationally held record. If you were stopped and you had no proof, then simply a PNC check using photo ID such as a driving licence could be used (or even your details can be used to bring up the photo on your driving licence to help), and this will verify if you're a valid SGC holder. If it's a simple shotgun, then they would have to believe you had borrowed the gun for longer than 72 hours or that the gun wasn't yours, I do not believe PNC holds granular detail. The firearms database is also locked down more, I am unsure if the gunnies have access to this outside of 9-5, however either way the new system you propose would only really help with buying ammo IMO.

2 hours ago, marsh man said:

 

Many THANKS to you both for clarifying the situation , I dare say it could be a case of who stop you on the day and what actions they would take .    MM

Yes, absolutely is the case. Some police officers will have limited firearms knowledge, and others in more rural areas will have more exposure and knowledge. Hampshire and IOW Constabulary have a dedicated countrywatch department, and they would be as knowledgeable. Often the case will be local officers will attend and guided by their Sergeant or senior officers. 

Don't forget, if the decision is made they may be unlawfully held, no certificate will help you. It will be a seizure until it can be proved otherwise. 

3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I have to admit to being both unsure on the law (as I think most are) and also behaving slightly inconsistently myself.

First 'the law'.   As I understand it the police may 'seize' your firearm if they believe that you (1) are 'unlawfully in possession' or being in possession or (2)  'constitutes a danger to ..... '.  Showing the certificate covers off the 'unlawfully in possession', but NOT the 'constitutes a danger to ..... ' - so even with certificate, they could say there was a 'danger to' safety and seize.  As far as I am aware nothing in law says you must carry your certificate when carrying a gun, but I accept there is a marginally higher risk of the inconvenience of seizure, however it is (or should be) easy enough for the police to check up instantly that you are a licensed person..

 

I think in this situation you are hitting the nail on the head. I do not believe this is a case they didn't believe they had licences, nor that they owned the guns. I don't even believe it's an issue with permission on the land. 

Whilst just my belief.... I believe under S47 of the firearms act, section 3 and 4:

If a constable has reasonable cause to suspect a person of having a firearm with him in a public place, or to be committing or about to commit, elsewhere than in a public place, an offence relevant for the purposes of this section, the constable may search that person and may detain him for the purpose of doing so.

If a constable has reasonable cause to suspect that there is a firearm in a vehicle in a public place, or that a vehicle is being or is about to be used in connection with the commission of an offence relevant for the purposes of this section elsewhere than in a public place, he may search the vehicle and for that purpose require the person driving or in control of it to stop it.

The offences it may be relevant in S19:

Carrying firearm in a public place.

A person commits an offence if, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on him) he has with him in a public place

[F1(a)a loaded shot gun,

or S20 (2):

 

A person commits an offence if, while he has a firearm with him, he enters or is on any land as a trespasser and without reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on him).

 

With the landowner apparently giving permission it would lead to believe that S19 is where the offence lays, as I suspect the burden of proof placed on the shooters and not the police didn't satisfy them sufficiently that they had lawful authority or reasonable excuse. I think either they didn't explain their case enough and they were seen as a danger in a public place, or, the officers in attendance have other information that is not present on a one sided pro-shooting video.

Whilst I have no reason to believe the shooters and they have every sympathy of mine, it is only one side. I do hope they get it resolved quickly and get their firearms returned swiftly and without damage.

 

 

21 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Whoever stops you has to abide by the law and have good reason.

Agreed, but a public complaint of men with guns in a field is good enough reason. Also the interpretation of the law, whilst absolute, can be interpreted differently by different humans. If it wasn't, we wouldn't need courts or lawyers!

This won't be a random stop for sure. I don't agree with the outcome based on the information provided though.

[marsh man]

28 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Whoever stops you has to abide by the law and have good reason.

For how many times I have had contact with the police ( once ) in a lifetime of shooting , they would have had a reason to come out , good or bad well that I can't say but the police are very busy people and I don't think they would come out if they had no reason.

With more and more town people entering the strange world of the countryside , the police get called out a lot more than they ever used to , a chap I know had the police come and saw him because a member of the public said he was using live birds as decoys , when they saw he was using a magnet and a flapper they wished him well and left him to get on with it . 

[Bigbob]

When i worked at the university i was allowed to shoot the rabbits i had to go to the control room log on and i was often asked to call the police my self and get a job number as the supervisors seemed scared to do so , even after doing that the police used to turn up i think i had the record they came 8 times the other guy that used to shoot there gave up after 6 times , There was nearly 500 acres there and i always said i didn't have a mobile phone so only  the guys that knew me could phone me and say Bob the police are here looking for you and i would say fine i will meet them at the control room .I never really had any bother with the apart from the odd one who would put the blues on ?hoping to scare the rabbits ?> , they always said you have a few can we see your gun then they would fire a shot and be off i think they where checking it wasnt fire arms rated , i always asked can i see your guns and have a shot and they usually said f off . one time i was lamping a verge  on a straight bit of road with a roundabout at each end and my son says you got the police behind you so i went round the roundabouts 3 times lamping the verges till the blue lights come on and after i stopped the passenger wpc comes out and asks what are you doing i said lamping the rabbits job number from your control room todays date and 1234 , she replied sorry they never tell us anything i said total waste of time calling in then ?. After that when i was logged in i would go speak to a bus driver and he would say thanks mate i will radio the garage and tell them and despite buses coming onto the campus every 15 minutes i never really had any bother , it was a great place and if i drove round every road and changed the filter from red , amber ,blue then green at the end of a cycle and did four cycles i was shooting nearly 100 rabbits a fortnight , But after that i never phoned the police to say i was going lamping on any of my other permissions 

[old'un]

13 hours ago, marsh man said:

I dare say there are police officers about who are tottally against blood sports the same as many members of the public , if I , or anyone else had been stopped by one of these police officers , would they been as lenient ?. I very much doubt it .

There's also a lot of police officers and members of the public who think the only people who should have guns are the police and members of the armed forces.

[Gas seal]

Not a lot of information just police stop (legal ) pigeon shoot on a u tube film. No reason why the guns were confiscated. Was ammunition, other guns or certificates confiscated. Did they borrow buy or use another shot gun to carry out the legal pigeon shooting. The field looks out in the sticks to me away from the public. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I would hope that a FORMAL COMPLAINT is submitted to the Chief Constable requesting a proper explanation.

[Scully]

Anyone know if any of our shooting ‘representatives’ have responded to this in any way? 

[old'un]

13 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I would hope that a FORMAL COMPLAINT is submitted to the Chief Constable requesting a proper explanation.

The only place I can find anything about this is the short video on the Fieldsports Channel and that is very short on detail, even had a look on Manchester police website and no mention of it, could do with more detail on this, anyone?

 

Just now, Scully said:

Anyone know if any of our shooting ‘representatives’ have responded to this in any way? 

I emailed BASC and as yet no reply, bit disappointing.

[HantsRob]

1 hour ago, old'un said:

There's also a lot of police officers and members of the public who think the only people who should have guns are the police and members of the armed forces.

Yes I don't disagree with that statement. Education and understanding is required. 

17 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I would hope that a FORMAL COMPLAINT is submitted to the Chief Constable requesting a proper explanation.

Based on the information provided, I completely agree.

Is it possible there is more to this story? Possibly. Could it be naive officers and comms room inspector who have made the wrong decision? Absolutely. 

 

I wonder if we aren't helping ourselves though. Would a quick call to the police stating "I have permission from landover xyz and will be shooting at location abc on this date and time. My name is.... my number is.... I plan on shooting at 10am tomorrow, if you have any concerns please do call me before I attend site with my shotguns and ammunition".
That way if they get a 999 call, they are not only aware but also have an opportunity to intervene if they think it's not lawful or inappropriate. Whilst some may argue we shouldn't need to do this, why would we not want to enjoy a legal sport without interruption?

[marsh man]

1 hour ago, old'un said:

There's also a lot of police officers and members of the public who think the only people who should have guns are the police and members of the armed forces.

You are a 100% percent correct , we are in a ever changing world and find it hard to keep pace with the constant changes that are going on all around us , take the s g c for instance , when we first had to fill forms in after they done away with the 10 bob licence from the post office we thought that was bad enough , now every time it come for renewal there are a lot more boxes to fill in and quite a bit dearer .

We are not as bad as some areas and still fairly rural but the amount of complaints the estate office get when they put gas gas on is unreal , on a shoot day it isn't to bad but we still get the odd police car come past but very rarely stop , we did have a scare on one of our beaters days when the ole head keeper put out the guns on the other side of the road that we were doing back to front as the ole cock birds were getting wise with it being the end of the season , all was going well when a police car came around the corner and stopped , he asked who was in charge and the head keeper walked over to see what the problem was , they said we were shooting to near the road and they had a complaint , when told the distance was perfectly legal and the guns had there backs to the road and were not shooting towards it then there was very little they could do about it .

What was noticable , the drive started off with about 9 guns on the field and when the police pulled up this number dwindeled down to 2 or 3 as these were the only ones with a game licence which you needed at the time , all the others thought you had to be rich to have a game licence and those beaters were certainly far from being rich