Net Zero

[12gauge82]

What gets me with the charge towards green living is and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the population has ever been forced towards something in this manner before on such scale. Sure we've had the industrial revelation with the equal division of labour, which I'm sure was unpopular by many at the time, particularly if you were a skilled trade where factory line production replaced your job. But the overwhelming economics of a capitalist system meant ultimately resistance to change was futile. Take the push to eletric vehicles, it's not that they're currently a overwhelming advantage to mankind making ice vehicles obsolete, it's simply the government artificially attempting to ban a currently superior tech, it's all a bit communist for my liking.

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, amateur said:

That view is, of course, subjective.

It works well for my local driving and I certainly have no concerns about charging it on the move.

I find it pleasant to drive.

I wouldn’t use it on a longer trip, however.

My all electric Jag is business leased, no Ulez, no congestion charge etc (for now) and it’s very exciting to drive. Costs me £60 in electricity to run a month. I’ve had it now for approaching 2 years without a single complaint. 

I have zero interest in the environment knowing that whatever I do / we do as a nation (no matter how deep we want to cut our own throats or how poor we want to make ourselves) will make zero difference to whatever global environmental problems there are or aren’t. My car could run on Panda tears as far as I could care.

I’ll never go back to petrol / diesel because EV ticks all the boxes for me, my driving style, my daily commute and my inner accountant. EV’s are not for everyone but I do laugh when people who have never had an EV let alone driven one want to tell me how terrible they are. These people really do make me chuckle.

[Newbie to this]

25 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Take the push to eletric vehicles, it's not that they're currently a overwhelming advantage to mankind making ice vehicles obsolete, it's simply the government artificially attempting to ban a currently superior tech, it's all a bit communist for my liking.

Well put

[shaun4860]

6 hours ago, Mungler said:

My all electric Jag is business leased, no Ulez, no congestion charge etc (for now) and it’s very exciting to drive. Costs me £60 in electricity to run a month. I’ve had it now for approaching 2 years without a single complaint. 

I have zero interest in the environment knowing that whatever I do / we do as a nation (no matter how deep we want to cut our own throats or how poor we want to make ourselves) will make zero difference to whatever global environmental problems there are or aren’t. My car could run on Panda tears as far as I could care.

I’ll never go back to petrol / diesel because EV ticks all the boxes for me, my driving style, my daily commute and my inner accountant. EV’s are not for everyone but I do laugh when people who have never had an EV let alone driven one want to tell me how terrible they are. These people really do make me chuckle.

I have a self charging Hybrid and am actually well impressed with it.

Just did a 180 mile journey and according to the computer averaged over 80 mpg.

Its impractical for me to go full electric as having nowhere to charge it 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Robden]

I haven't read all this thread, but I assume that Net Zero refers to the money in our pockets.

If, and it's a big IF, we do go all eiectric, the government will lose a s$$t load in fuel duty. Where from, and how do you think they will get that money back? Answers on a postcard to....................

Edited September 25, 2023 by Robden

[London Best]

14 hours ago, amateur said:

That view is, of course, subjective.

It works well for my local driving and I certainly have no concerns about charging it on the move.

I find it pleasant to drive.

I wouldn’t use it on a longer trip, however.

And where would you put four labradors and three dead deer? 
It’s for going shopping in.

[discobob]

2 hours ago, Robden said:

how do you think they will get that money back?

Busking??? 🤣

[amateur]

49 minutes ago, London Best said:

And where would you put four labradors and three dead deer? 
It’s for going shopping in.

I don't have those carrying requirements.

I suspect that 90% of the population don't either.

I would not have gone electric, had I had a choice and recognise that they don't suit everyone. 

Perhaps those with "special needs" should be granted some exemption.

[12gauge82]

33 minutes ago, amateur said:

 

Perhaps those with "special needs" should be granted some exemption.

Or perhaps once the technology catches up and surpasses ICE technology normal market factors, like people buying up eletric vehicles through choice will force ICE vehicles to go obsolete like has always happened in a capitalist society. Rather than the government acting like a dictatorship and banning them for no sensible reason, forcing hardship on millions of people.

Edited September 25, 2023 by 12gauge82

[amateur]

7 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Or perhaps once the technology catches up and surpasses ICE technology normal market factors, like people buying up eletric vehicles through choice will force ICE vehicles to go obsolete like has always happened in a capitalist society. Rather than the government acting like a dictatorship and banning them for no sensible reason, forcing hardship on millions of people.

I agree

[12gauge82]

50 minutes ago, amateur said:

I agree

👍

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Or perhaps once the technology catches up and surpasses ICE technology normal market factors, like people buying up eletric vehicles through choice will force ICE vehicles to go obsolete like has always happened in a capitalist society. Rather than the government acting like a dictatorship and banning them for no sensible reason, forcing hardship on millions of people.

Agreed.

EV cars are the visible face of the draconian quest for net zero nonsense.

If people don’t like EVs being foist upon them, and yes it should be a matter of choice, then they really won’t like what necessarily has to follow in pursuit of net zero. 

As my energy consultant client said - no one actually understands what net zero is, how impossible it is to achieve in the real world and the impact / cost it will have on their lives. Some accepted freedoms will be curtailed (most forms of travel that aren’t using a pedal bike or sail boat will be hit) and elsewhere the price of everything will sky rocket. Seriously, who thinks banning gas boilers was ever going to be a runner? Then there’s the vegetarian imposed diet as livestock farming goes into the net zero shredder etc etc.

I’m amazed it’s taken the conservatives this long to work it all out - indeed, it’s taken a conservative indian accountant.

And where are all the true conservatives - all politics now is beige left leaning virtue signalling woke nonsense. 

[Penelope]

1 minute ago, Mungler said:

all politics now is beige left leaning virtue signalling woke nonsense. 

And there in, lies the rub!

[Yellow Bear]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

And where are all the true conservatives - all politics now is beige left leaning virtue signalling woke nonsense. 

Sadly true, strand even vertical with no lean and get "cancelled by the bright red hard left  virtue signalling woke main stream media. as a Nazi. (they seem to have forgotten that the nazis were in fact a SOCIALIST party)

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Or perhaps once the technology catches up and surpasses ICE technology normal market factors, like people buying up eletric vehicles through choice will force ICE vehicles to go obsolete like has always happened in a capitalist society.

As Ive said , there isnt enough lithium in the world to replace ICE cars, trucks and buses, not even for this country , never mind the entire world.
Higher demand for lithium based EVs will just push the price of largely Chinese owned lithium ever higher as supplies dwindle. This puts China in a very good position, and thats not a good thing.

Then theres charging infrastructure, where massive investment is needed, and the simple fact that the greener we go with electricity production, the less we seem to have going spare.

Then there the toxicity of the vehicles themselves, and disposal of a heavily damaged EV is a complex and expensive process.

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

As Ive said , there isnt enough lithium in the world to replace ICE cars, trucks and buses, not even for this country , never mind the entire world.
Higher demand for lithium based EVs will just push the price of largely Chinese owned lithium ever higher as supplies dwindle. This puts China in a very good position, and thats not a good thing.

Then theres charging infrastructure, where massive investment is needed, and the simple fact that the greener we go with electricity production, the less we seem to have going spare.

Then there the toxicity of the vehicles themselves, and disposal of a heavily damaged EV is a complex and expensive process.

Absolutely, until battery's improve drastically, EVs are not a viable direct replacement for the vast majority of ICE vehicles.

[Rewulf]

24 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Absolutely, until battery's improve drastically

The mobile tech market has been trying to improve battery technology for 20 years, and so far has come up with nothing.

 

[Gordon R]

Mungler - my eldest has a Mercedes EQC 400 for staying relatively local and he loves it. I asked him for a straight opinion as to whether he would have another. His is two years old - he normally changes every three years. He said he wouldn't hesitate to get another.

 

 

[discobob]

@Gordon RA very expensive car for staying local - what does he use when he wants to go further then as that is what you have implied?

My wife would be ideal for an electric car but she wouldn't be seen dead in one!!

Indeed I might, except for long journeys that I do several time a year....

 

[Weihrauch17]

23 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

What gets me with the charge towards green living is and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the population has ever been forced towards something in this manner before on such scale. Sure we've had the industrial revelation with the equal division of labour, which I'm sure was unpopular by many at the time, particularly if you were a skilled trade where factory line production replaced your job. But the overwhelming economics of a capitalist system meant ultimately resistance to change was futile. Take the push to eletric vehicles, it's not that they're currently a overwhelming advantage to mankind making ice vehicles obsolete, it's simply the government artificially attempting to ban a currently superior tech, it's all a bit communist for my liking.

Totalitarian is the word to describe the 650 woke imbeciles sat in Westminster although given most of them don't attend very often that is too kind.  95% simply cannot afford what is being forced on them, something has to give.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Weihrauch17

[Gordon R]

Quote

A very expensive car for staying local - what does he use when he wants to go further then as that is what you have implied?

V-Class Mercedes for longer trips or holidays.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Gordon R

[Mungler]

I had someone come down from Doncaster to Essex in one go in a Tesla 3 long range with no drama or stress at all. 

The next generation of EV out of China is what the European car markets are frightened of : 700 km range, fast charging and for a fraction of the EVs prices in Europe.  China has a 10 year head start on EV tech and the like for cost comparables are keeping the Euro manufacturers awake at night.

It’s not about right now, it’s about what’s coming over the near horizon.

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/08/22/catl-unveils-ev-battery-enabling-a-400-km-driving-range-on-a-10-minute-charge/#:~:text=CATL announced a new fast,range on a full charge.

and 

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/chinas-ev-makers-face-cost-consumer-challenges-conquer-europe-2023-08-18/#:~:text=The average price of an,as cheaply as at home.

 

But what we as consumers will see is the protectionist EU put massive tariffs on Chinese imports in order to stop us from buying them.

The ‘average’ brand new on the road price of an EV in China is £28k. That’s average - so imagine what’s less than / more than £28k.

Check out the ‘Seagull’ 190-250 mile range, £8,000 price tag (in China) and a 0-60 of 4.9 seconds 😆  Now that’s a cheap EV everyone will want.

https://news.yahoo.com/chinese-company-releasing-ultra-cheap-104500309.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAK1Abd3t8BkgaSQ-FGPO8wNYVAIZ-aulBcGM0BFiQRnWlF1rDLHdDhKbVVExw7oDw04Fwm3pgUPLiTivzRn8XvpHIdlAyM0W2VfczOGxYAIg138Nf1KI7nRz0KzqLc8gJuvkVqT86mAV9gI68QPYP4qZ0WZTDK58s2InQbasMx-y

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Seagull#:~:text=All three models are powered,km%2Fh of 13 seconds.

In Europe we get far to het up on what we see happening in Europe and perhaps even in the states - guess where the most cars and the most modern cars are all being built and sold right now?

We’ve all seen this, right?

.

Edit

Have a look at the review of this car - the Dolphin. Interesting to see what the reviewer says in the last minute…

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Mungler

[armsid]

Rewulf you are correct on battery grade lithium but as i explained in an earlier post we had the technology to use induction power for electric vehicles in 1961 and i think the cable may still be buried under lane 1 of the m4 This technology can still be used but does theov. want to? Also if you have heart pacemaker  or electric insulin pump fitted you cannot go in or near an EV just the same as going through airport scanner 

[shaun4860]

Mungler,

That car would suit an awful lot of people 👍

Will be interesting to find out how it drives and price.

I would probably have to charge it twice a month on normal usage 

[Mungler]

5 hours ago, shaun4860 said:

Mungler,

That car would suit an awful lot of people 👍

Will be interesting to find out how it drives and price.

I would probably have to charge it twice a month on normal usage 

Whilst writing that long post I fell down the rabbit hole of what EVs are coming out of China.

Apart from some really daft car names (I’m guessing literal translations from Mandarin don’t scan in the West) the Seagull and the Dolphin look like cracking cars.

If I could get the Seagull for £8k on the road  I’d be down the car dealers tomorrow- 250 miles range and a 0-60 of 4.9 seconds; that is absolutely perfect for my daily commute which is a stream of traffic lights (2 lanes to 3 lanes back to 2 lanes) and roundabouts on A roads. A nippy EV commuter car brand new on the road for £8k and currently Ulez and congestion charge free  (not unlike the BMW i3 but with a better spec and 1/3 of the price).

We’ll never see one here or rather by the time it arrives here with all the protectionist trade tariffs slapped on it will be more expensive than its nearest European rival.

However, the change is coming…