Another nail in the coffin!

[Dave at kelton]

Why are people putting our sport in more danger than ever? Irrespective of what you think of the paper it shows we are being watched in ways we don’t think about. For someone who constantly works too keep what we have this really pees me off!

https://www.wwt.org.uk/wetland-centres/caerlaverock/news/pollutants-on-the-merse/

Edited September 24, 2023 by Dave at kelton
Typo

[8 shot]

Boring ! these stories are just a waste of ink. There is not one person on in this country that hasn't littered at one time or another. I cut the grass verges around several villages in my area and you wouldn't believe the stuff people throw in ditches and roadside verges, even councils leave there rubbish in ditches after road works. Shooting doesn't really have much to answer for in the grand scheme of thing. I just wish people, shooting people wouldn't keep highlighting it.

[enfieldspares]

There is also no proof that these were discarded by shooters. They could indeed have been discarded by those seeking to have the area closed to shooters who have simply filled their pockets (to then empty here) with the contents of a bin on a clay ground or an area where lead shot is permitted.

[scobydog]

The maths don't add up, is it 33% or 52% or some number in between  of lead cartridges, if you have a set number of carts you can work out the exact percentage of the ones that are lead carts. I'm with Enfield on this one, total non story.

 

S

[holloway]

1 minute ago, scobydog said:

The maths don't add up, is it 33% or 52% or some number in between  of lead cartridges, if you have a set number of carts you can work out the exact percentage of the ones that are lead carts. I'm with Enfield on this one, total non story.

 

S

maybe they are taking into consideration that some of the cases were lead but have been reused for non toxic by reloaders .

Even if that is the case those plastic wads are a real embarrassment to wildfowling . 

[rbrowning2]

Prof. Rhys Green is a big player in the anti shooting agenda and a expert person on the HSE team considering the lead ban, so not surprised by the content of the article.

 

[Gas seal]

Hi some of the cases with no printing on them will be home loaded cartridges. We have had empty (lead shot) cases found on the foreshore some years back, the case were reloaded with non lead shot. I often reload Lead shot cases with steel shot. I still have lots of 10 gauge Winchester (lead) cases if they were reloaded with steel and the empty cases found on the marsh anyone would presume lead shot was used. Study on spend cartridges and wads were done in I think it was Denmark some years ago. We are watched more than we think. The answer to these people is we now have bio wads and bio cases. It’s not a problem if we have answers, it’s better when they don’t have answers. 

[rbrowning2]

3 minutes ago, holloway said:

maybe they are taking into consideration that some of the cases were lead but have been reused for non toxic by reloaders .

Even if that is the case those plastic wads are a real embarrassment to wildfowling . 

Plastic wad are a consequence of using steel shot until all cartridges use only the relatively new bio degradable wads but even some of them take many years to degrade.  

[aberisle]

When i was out wildfowling last week i found no empty cartridge cases but plenty of discarded tampon aplicators , there is a lot more than shooting plastic being dumped out there

 

[holloway]

Yes i know ,steel shot Tss etc awful for the environment full stop .

 

[Scully]

There’s nothing to stop wildfowlers from contacting the authors to point out to them that wildfowlers often load their own cases, and use any and all cases regardless of what they were originally loaded with.
So just because it doesn’t state ‘steel shot’ on the case doesn’t necessarily mean they contained lead shot. 
Unless the science can prove the cases contained lead rather than steel, it’s just a case of littering, and I seriously doubt wildfowlers have the monopoly on that. 
Even the use of a double ejector shotgun rather than a self loader doesn’t mean 100% of all cases are recovered, and the littering isn’t deliberate. 
Let us know how you get on, and what response you received. Don't forget to insist that your email is given as much exposure to the relevant parties they contacted with their missive. 👍

[Gas seal]

Hi l loaded plastic wads for lead wildfowl loads, when it was legal, and l have used bio cardboard wads for non lead about twenty years ago. Bio wads are not a new thing. It’s all about cost and convenience with cartridge manufacturers. I don’t think we have any choice regarding plastic wads, it didn’t take the manufacturers long to produce bio wads. Some will break up faster than others, if some take years it’s better than plastic. It’s not just shooting and plastic, it’s all single use plastic. 

[Dave at kelton]

On 24/09/2023 at 17:04, Scully said:

There’s nothing to stop wildfowlers from contacting the authors to point out to them that wildfowlers often load their own cases, and use any and all cases regardless of what they were originally loaded with.
So just because it doesn’t state ‘steel shot’ on the case doesn’t necessarily mean they contained lead shot. 
Unless the science can prove the cases contained lead rather than steel, it’s just a case of littering, and I seriously doubt wildfowlers have the monopoly on that. 
Even the use of a double ejector shotgun rather than a self loader doesn’t mean 100% of all cases are recovered, and the littering isn’t deliberate. 
Let us know how you get on, and what response you received. Don't forget to insist that your email is given as much exposure to the relevant parties they contacted with their missive. 👍

I have put this in BASC hands for now and we will discuss whether our wildfowling club makes an official comment. The purpose of the post was to demonstrate two things. Firstly how simple things are being used against us and secondly to highlight how some of our number are potentially putting our sport at risk. This is right on my doorstep so is a very sensitive subject if the allegations of illegal use of lead shot are true. I am less concerned about plastics than I am about illegal actions in a very sensitive area that is under pressure to stop wildfowling.

[enfieldspares]

On 24/09/2023 at 16:42, holloway said:

Maybe they are taking into consideration that some of the cases were lead but have been reused for non toxic by reloaders .

 

Good point well made.

[flippermaj]

The problem with all of those who think this is a non story is that sadly these non stories find there way in front of influential people and committees etc who have the power to change rules, regs and laws.  So to just dismiss it as a non story may be a bit short sighted.

Sadly my personal experience of shooting on the fore shore in Scotland suggests that there are many who do not stick to the non toxic rules so from that point of view we are our own worst enemy.  If we cant be compliant we will be forced to be compliant, I believe this is what happened in Denmark when shooters continued to use lead when they should not have?

Yes some of the empties may be home reloads with non toxic but I would suspect that these will be a minority as most fowlers I know use shop purchased carts.  

Someone said that there are bio degradeable cartridges now (Bio Ammo?), however getting hold of them is difficult or impossible if you want steel wildfowling loads.  I think they are the only manufacturer?

Eley and Gamebore do eco wads with steel fowling loads but if you have a semi there is the problem of picking the empties up anyway so there will always be some plastic littering however hard you try if you have a semi.

Plastic wads, they were about way before fowlers had to use steel shot, the magnum lead loads all had plastic wads so this is not a new problem due to the use of steel carts.

If you home load your own carts (from what I see) there are no eco wads, all you can buy are plastic wads for steel.

Dave, thank you for a good post and raising the issue.   Best of luck keeping your local wildfowling rights.

 

 

[Scully]

On 25/09/2023 at 18:04, Dave at kelton said:

I have put this in BASC hands for now and we will discuss whether our wildfowling club makes an official comment. The purpose of the post was to demonstrate two things. Firstly how simple things are being used against us and secondly to highlight how some of our number are potentially putting our sport at risk. This is right on my doorstep so is a very sensitive subject if the allegations of illegal use of lead shot are true. I am less concerned about plastics than I am about illegal actions in a very sensitive area that is under pressure to stop wildfowling.

I’m not really sure how anyone could prove or disprove the use of lead, which is why the WWT shouldn’t have made the accusation. 
They have assumed guilt whereas no proof is possible. 

[flippermaj]

Scully, Technically you are 100% right, very difficult to prove what the contents of the empty carts was.  However the probability is that many held lead.

[Smudger687]

2 hours ago, flippermaj said:

The problem with all of those who think this is a non story is that sadly these non stories find there way in front of influential people and committees etc who have the power to change rules, regs and laws.  So to just dismiss it as a non story may be a bit short sighted.

Sadly my personal experience of shooting on the fore shore in Scotland suggests that there are many who do not stick to the non toxic rules so from that point of view we are our own worst enemy.  If we cant be compliant we will be forced to be compliant, I believe this is what happened in Denmark when shooters continued to use lead when they should not have?

Yes some of the empties may be home reloads with non toxic but I would suspect that these will be a minority as most fowlers I know use shop purchased carts.  

Someone said that there are bio degradeable cartridges now (Bio Ammo?), however getting hold of them is difficult or impossible if you want steel wildfowling loads.  I think they are the only manufacturer?

Eley and Gamebore do eco wads with steel fowling loads but if you have a semi there is the problem of picking the empties up anyway so there will always be some plastic littering however hard you try if you have a semi.

Plastic wads, they were about way before fowlers had to use steel shot, the magnum lead loads all had plastic wads so this is not a new problem due to the use of steel carts.

If you home load your own carts (from what I see) there are no eco wads, all you can buy are plastic wads for steel.

Dave, thank you for a good post and raising the issue.   Best of luck keeping your local wildfowling rights.

 

 

Bioammo's aren't biodegradeable. The only factory biodegradeable options are the gamebore and eley water soluble wads. Of those two, the gamebore 3 inch seems like a better option for the foreshore as they offer loads in 1's, 2's and 3's vs eley only offering 3's. 

[captainhastings]

Bet his been collecting them for months just to get a little pile and knock up a story. I can't beleave there is many that leave empties around other than the odd lost one from a semi 

[Pushandpull]

It's worth following the link in the original post and reading the complete paper (7 pages). It is not, regrettably, just about Caerlaverock and it does not make comfortable reading.

PM sent to OP.

[Scully]

16 hours ago, flippermaj said:

Scully, Technically you are 100% right, very difficult to prove what the contents of the empty carts was.  However the probability is that many held lead.

And as it states on some of the cases in the photos’, some held steel. 
It needs pointing out to the trust that an agenda is no basis for making accusations they have no means of proving. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Scully

[rbrowning2]

16 hours ago, Smudger687 said:

Bioammo's aren't biodegradeable. The only factory biodegradeable options are the gamebore and eley water soluble wads. Of those two, the gamebore 3 inch seems like a better option for the foreshore as they offer loads in 1's, 2's and 3's vs eley only offering 3's. 

Bioammo claim their wads and cases are biodegradable, however UNE-EN 13432 is an interesting standard and just be cause the bio polymer meets that standard does not mean the product made from it will, plus it refers to industrial composting at high temperatures.

https://bioammo.es/sostenibilidad/

Gamebore had their cardboard wads out years ago, they are biodegradable but the cases are not.

[macca2017]

The bottom line is whatever was in them or how long they have been there, these cartridges were discarded by shooters. Whether on the fore shore, on a rough shoot or driven day..... just pick your bloody cartridges up and take them home to disposed of correctly. Its indefensible leaving empty carts anywhere, others may litter the environment but 2 wrongs don't make a right, and we,  more others shouldn't give ammunition to those apposed to what we do.   

[stockybasher]

43 minutes ago, macca2017 said:

The bottom line is whatever was in them or how long they have been there, these cartridges were discarded by shooters. Whether on the fore shore, on a rough shoot or driven day..... just pick your bloody cartridges up and take them home to disposed of correctly. Its indefensible leaving empty carts anywhere, others may litter the environment but 2 wrongs don't make a right, and we,  more others shouldn't give ammunition to those apposed to what we do.   

Exactly  👍

[Scully]

You can’t avoid losing the odd case, it’s inevitable. The only thing is they hang about for donkies years. 
I’ve found them in the flotsam and jetsam in Carrick Bay, Morecambe Bay, Silloth, Bamburgh etc etc etc. So old their tin base has long perished and all that remains is the tube. 

For as long as they are made from plastic then it will continue.