HSE final lead ammunition consultation launched

[Centrepin]

27 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC update here:

www.basc.org.uk/new-consultation-launched-on-lead-ammunition/

Links broken Conor

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Thanks. Link working for me off various devices but here is the full text in any case.

Summary

Following a Health and Safety Executive (HSE) consultation in 2022, the revised restriction proposals for the outdoor recreational use of lead ammunition in England, Wales and Scotland are as follows:

• Lead airgun pellets – no restrictions proposed.
• Lead shot for live quarry and target shooting – proposed ban within five years or less, depending on consultation outcome.
  Rifle ammunition for live quarry shooting – no restrictions proposed, but this could change depending on consultation outcome.
  Rifle ammunition for target shooting – can continue on approved ranges where mitigation measures for lead removal are in place, with a  two-year grace period.

Socio-economic consultation

The above proposals are subject to a HSE public consultation which opened this week and will run for 60 days, closing on 10 December 2023. You can find a brief explanation of each proposal below:

Lead airgun pellets

It is positive news that the previous proposal to restrict the outdoor use of lead airgun pellets has been dropped and there are now no restrictions proposed within the current consultation. BASC pushed hard on this issue, submitting two technical reports to evidence our call for the proposals to be removed. 

Lead shot for live quarry and target shooting 

The consultation proposes a ban within five years or less, depending on the consultation outcome. BASC’s position is that clay pigeon shooting with lead shot could continue where grounds have the correct risk measures in place, and they can ensure lead removal, as per the HSE guidance for target shooting with rifles.

BASC continues to support the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics in shotgun ammunition for live quarry shooting. As such, we believe that further regulation is not required in this area. 

In any case, BASC will be recommending to the HSE that any transition time for cartridges used in live quarry shooting must take into account the world shortage of components due to the war in Ukraine, and the need for manufacturers and assemblers to source new machinery to produce steel cartridges with biodegradable wads. 

Rifle ammunition for live quarry shooting 

No restrictions are proposed currently, but this could change depending on consultation outcome. The evidence of secondary poisoning through rifle ammunition is not conclusive and if restrictions were put in place, it would be a precautionary measure.

Rifle ammunition for target shooting

Under the proposals, the use of lead ammunition could continue at approved ranges where mitigation measures for lead removal are in place, with a two-year grace period allowing alternative ranges to adapt. 

 

How to respond to the consultation

The online survey form that the HSE has provided for consultation responses contains mostly technical and confusing questions. Instead, you can submit your response via the general comments section at the end of the HSE survey response form. If you would like to write more than the word limit of 2,500 characters then you can upload your comments as a Word document.

Respond to the consultation here.

[Penelope]

On 11/10/2023 at 13:23, rbrowning2 said:

shooting will die a death

Which is the planned outcome.

[wymberley]

This is going to be a riot. Fortunately, I will have nothing to do with it. If we take our foreshore 'fowlers out of the equation, hardly anyone else is going to have a clue which way is up. The first question which begs an answer is what is the shooting knowledge base within the HSE? The only way that shooters will be able to fully understand the capabilities of NTS is for the information supplied by the cartridge manufacturers to be consistent. What is 'speed', what is 'velocity', what is 'MV', what diameter are FE3s. is the residual energy level for your FE  3s really 2.5 ftlbs at 50 yards? You get my drift. We can't rely on these folk now and it'll only get worse in the fight to obtain the lions' share of the market. If they can't sort it out amongst themselves complying with CIP where necessary, then perhaps there should be legislation to ensure that they do. One could make a case for DEFRA to revitalise the Ballistic Research laboratory if all else fails.

[Keith 66]

What happens to Muzzleloaders? You cant use steel in an original & surely the number in use compared to modern new fangled breechloaders renders their contribution to pollution insignificant, Will they be exempt?

[Old farrier]

2 minutes ago, Keith 66 said:

What happens to Muzzleloaders? You cant use steel in an original & surely the number in use compared to modern new fangled breechloaders renders their contribution to pollution insignificant, Will they be exempt?

About as exempt as the small bores and short chambered guns 

rendered useless by the stroke of a pen 

these historical guns are a very small minority obviously bigger than the elite athletes that they are catering for but sadly we will be cast aside into the obsolete pile 

 

[Weihrauch17]

15 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

About as exempt as the small bores and short chambered guns 

rendered useless by the stroke of a pen 

these historical guns are a very small minority obviously bigger than the elite athletes that they are catering for but sadly we will be cast aside into the obsolete pile 

 

Yep sums it up.

[quentyn]

well i have replied essentially stating that whilst i accept that phasing out lead in 5 years is possible ther need to be exceptions for .410, 16 bore etc shooters as well as people shooting subsonic shotguns 

lets see if it gets anywhere - from the questions it seems to be fairly loaded in 1 direction i fear 

 

If they get rid of .410's how many kids simply wont get into shooting as by the time they can use a 12 bore they just wont be interested ? 

[yickdaz]

Thing is with this people are not gearing themselves up for whats coming, and they are going to shoot lead to the very last  so when the time comes  to move over to non toxic mainly steel they won't have a clue what's best to use gun and cart wise 

On 11/10/2023 at 21:17, grahamch said:

Why don't folk move with the times and accept change is coming and get on with it?

They have used steel shot on the continent for years for clays and game without too many issues. 

If we want the sport to survive then maybe we have to move on and evolve?

The three Wigeon and a Pintail I got on the shore on Friday were shot at a sporting range with steel 4s through my 690-3 and stone dead.

 

 

 

I shot a driven day last sat using 32g 4s  steel all day  after one drive  I shot 6 stone dead in air at 45 to 50 yards ok not a high bird shoot but a 50 yard pheasant or anything is a good bird in my opinion one picker up asked what shell's I was using after I told him and handed him one of them he said I wouldn't of believed that had I not seen it also asked what chokes i was using 1/2 and 3/4 then asked and have you had any issues using those chokes non whatsoever I've been using steel for everything since 2018 so I'm well used to them by now and know the capability of them the guy who asked has never used steel so he will be a little bit more informed  

[wymberley]

10 minutes ago, yickdaz said:

Thing is with this people are not gearing themselves up for whats coming, and they are going to shoot lead to the very last  so when the time comes  to move over to non toxic mainly steel they won't have a clue what's best to use gun and cart wise 

I shot a driven day last sat using 32g 4s  steel all day  after one drive  I shot 6 stone dead in air at 45 to 50 yards ok not a high bird shoot but a 50 yard pheasant or anything is a good bird in my opinion one picker up asked what shell's I was using after I told him and handed him one of them he said I wouldn't of believed that had I not seen it also asked what chokes i was using 1/2 and 3/4 then asked and have you had any issues using those chokes non whatsoever I've been using steel for everything since 2018 so I'm well used to them by now and know the capability of them the guy who asked has never used steel so he will be a little bit more informed  

I'd have thought that eminently qualified as a high bird shoot.

[HantsRob]

3 hours ago, yickdaz said:

Thing is with this people are not gearing themselves up for whats coming, and they are going to shoot lead to the very last  so when the time comes  to move over to non toxic mainly steel they won't have a clue what's best to use gun and cart wise 

I disagree.

As soon as manufacturers are making steel their main shot and only do lead in small batches, and the price points flip, most shooters will move to what's financially more economical. 

[Scully]

Having used HP steel on and off for well over 15 years I have absolutely no qualms about making the change completely when the time comes, but until it does I will continue to buy and use lead for the vast majority of my shooting. 
No doubt those who disapprove of what we do will gnash their teeth and wave their arms about at seasons end when they buy a load of dead birds and discover they’re full of lead shot! Why wouldn’t they be? 🤷‍♂️

[London Best]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Having used HP steel on and off for well over 15 years I have absolutely no qualms about making the change completely when the time comes, but until it does I will continue to buy and use lead for the vast majority of my shooting. 
🤷‍♂️

Same here. 
Been using steel (not HP) for duck and geese since about 1998. 
No problems whatsoever.

[wymberley]

13 minutes ago, London Best said:

Same here. 
Been using steel (not HP) for duck and geese since about 1998. 
No problems whatsoever.

There's many folk who were using steel on clays some 10 years earlier but didn't know it.

[TRINITY]

On 17/10/2023 at 13:12, HantsRob said:

I disagree.

As soon as manufacturers are making steel their main shot and only do lead in small batches, and the price points flip, most shooters will move to what's financially more economical. 

That makes perfect sense, but will the prices flip ? In theory steel is far cheaper than lead but I have heard the production methods to make it into shot is more difficult. We also know how our industry likes to make an healthy profit. If prices do flip I would be ecstatic, however remaining around the same is probably the best I am hoping for.

[HantsRob]

Just now, TRINITY said:

That makes perfect sense, but will the prices flip ? In theory steel is far cheaper than lead but I have heard the production methods to make it into shot is more difficult. We also know how our industry likes to make an healthy profit. If prices do flip I would be ecstatic, however remaining around the same is probably the best I am hoping for.

Good point.

I'd suggest if we look at plastic vs fibre wad, there was a price shift a year or so ago. Whilst I appreciate your point, it surely must flip. BUT, it won't be price flipping, I'd suggest steel will stay as it is and lead would become costly annoyingly.

Then we will have the plaswad debate come up again....

[rbrowning2]

2 hours ago, TRINITY said:

That makes perfect sense, but will the prices flip ? In theory steel is far cheaper than lead but I have heard the production methods to make it into shot is more difficult. We also know how our industry likes to make an healthy profit. If prices do flip I would be ecstatic, however remaining around the same is probably the best I am hoping for.

it’s not our industry, apparently all steel shot is manufactured in China, let’s hope we as a nation do not fall out with them.

Then does steel shot have a future without using only biodegradable wads.

[Scully]

Cartridge manufacturers have a vested interest in developing a biodegradable wad, and possibly a fully recyclable case, as the next thing we will be faced with is the matter of littering and single use plastic. 
I’m confident they are on the ball, although being dependant on another country for a major component ( steel )  isn’t good business sense. 

[Dave at kelton]

On 16/10/2023 at 21:22, Old farrier said:

About as exempt as the small bores and short chambered guns 

rendered useless by the stroke of a pen 

these historical guns are a very small minority obviously bigger than the elite athletes that they are catering for but sadly we will be cast aside into the obsolete pile 

 

Yep it’s going to make life difficult for us! Guessing we will have to go over to bismuth mores the pity.

[Centrepin]

49 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

it’s not our industry, apparently all steel shot is manufactured in China, 

In my experience ALL steel made in China is made from cheese. Sooner we stop buying their muck the better.

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, Dave at kelton said:

Yep it’s going to make life difficult for us! Guessing we will have to go over to bismuth mores the pity.

Or tss it’s getting the components that I find a problem with 

happy to reload and the time spent doing it just can’t get what I need to do it 

[Dave at kelton]

43 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Or tss it’s getting the components that I find a problem with 

happy to reload and the time spent doing it just can’t get what I need to do it 

I wouldn’t go near tss it’s far too hard for our barrels. I have been playing with some loads for a modern 28 bore using plastic wads plus a .410 case inside that to avoid barrel damage. Yet to use them in anger.

Components are a problem but if you do a bit of digging you can get what you need. I have a stock of bismuth although older shot so probably not as good as the current stuff which is less prone to shattering.

[rbrowning2]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

Cartridge manufacturers have a vested interest in developing a biodegradable wad, and possibly a fully recyclable case, as the next thing we will be faced with is the matter of littering and single use plastic. 
I’m confident they are on the ball, although being dependant on another country for a major component ( steel )  isn’t good business sense. 

I’m confident they are not.

We have been dependant on another country for years for propellant and primers and cases and only one u.k. cartridge manufacture, makes some lead shot and wads.

 

2 hours ago, Centrepin said:

In my experience ALL steel made in China is made from cheese. Sooner we stop buying their muck the better.

what steel industry do we as a country have left? 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

I’m confident they are not.

 

Fair enough. I’m not concerned by any means; the situation that already exists will continue to do so. I can’t think of a reason why it wouldn’t. 

[rbrowning2]

53 minutes ago, Scully said:

Fair enough. I’m not concerned by any means; the situation that already exists will continue to do so. I can’t think of a reason why it wouldn’t. 

Would you sooner be dependant on several suppliers in Europe and one in the U.K. for lead shot or China for all your steel shot?