Steel explained, simply

[Centrepin]

 

 

[rbrowning2]

Stoped watching it when he went on about High Velocity but referencing shot size, clearly not someone to take advice from as its High Performance not velocity.

 

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

Stoped watching it when he went on about High Velocity but referencing shot size, clearly not someone to take advice from as its High Performance not velocity.

 

Surprised that you didn't mention that it's not steel. 

[Scully]

He hasn’t explained anything ‘simply’, he’s just one more whose claims are contrary to much of the info’ already out there, muddied already murky waters, opened yet another can of worms and created more questions than answers. Are we ever to get conclusive advice? 
Current ( or is it? ) advice contrary to his is that you can put standard steel through any choke in any gun, HP proofed or not. 
If his advice is to use nothing more than quarter choke EVEN through a HP proofed gun, then what is the point of buying a HP proofed gun, given that you can have your nitro proofed gun HP proofed? 
Given that this is true, ( and we know it is ) then logic therefore dictates that you can use HP steel through nothing tighter than quarter in your nitro proofed gun! There’s the bottom dropped out of the aftermarket choke business…..for anything tighter than quarter anyhow. 
RFD’s will currently give you a sob story about the poor trade in prices for your old multi choked gun that isnt HP steel shot proofed, but won’t give you a similar discount on one, but instead state that HP proofed chokes will ‘take care’ of the steel shot issue. Will it?  I was assured ( despite being one who isn’t worried )  it would, even though I wasn’t aware I had appeared sceptical. 
Anyone can buy those for my old nitro proofed gun too, so why the sob story? 
If you get Teague to open up your trap gun, their insurers will insist it is re-proofed, so you may as well have it HP proofed as there’s nothing to be gained by just having it proofed for standard ( I didn’t know that was possible, but someone on here told me they had 🤷‍♂️ ) because your nitro gun is already capable of using that, and then when you’ve had it HP proofed you’ll realise it was capable of that too, so you spent all that money for nowt! 🙂

Nevermind eh. 


 

[Rob85]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

He hasn’t explained anything ‘simply’, he’s just one more whose claims are contrary to much of the info’ already out there, muddied already murky waters, opened yet another can of worms and created more questions than answers. Are we ever to get conclusive advice? 
Current ( or is it? ) advice contrary to his is that you can put standard steel through any choke in any gun, HP proofed or not. 
If his advice is to use nothing more than quarter choke EVEN through a HP proofed gun, then what is the point of buying a HP proofed gun, given that you can have your nitro proofed gun HP proofed? 
Given that this is true, ( and we know it is ) then logic therefore dictates that you can use HP steel through nothing tighter than quarter in your nitro proofed gun! There’s the bottom dropped out of the aftermarket choke business…..for anything tighter than quarter anyhow. 
RFD’s will currently give you a sob story about the poor trade in prices for your old multi choked gun that isnt HP steel shot proofed, but won’t give you a similar discount on one, but instead state that HP proofed chokes will ‘take care’ of the steel shot issue. Will it?  I was assured ( despite being one who isn’t worried )  it would, even though I wasn’t aware I had appeared sceptical. 
Anyone can buy those for my old nitro proofed gun too, so why the sob story? 
If you get Teague to open up your trap gun, their insurers will insist it is re-proofed, so you may as well have it HP proofed as there’s nothing to be gained by just having it proofed for standard ( I didn’t know that was possible, but someone on here told me they had 🤷‍♂️ ) because your nitro gun is already capable of using that, and then when you’ve had it HP proofed you’ll realise it was capable of that too, so you spent all that money for nowt! 🙂

Nevermind eh. 


 

No matter when I think I've got it sussed the debate reopens. I thought "right ill give standard steel a go because that can go through my full chokes" I go to the RFD and ask for some to try.... oh you will split your barrels I've saw it happen! Buy this rusty barrelled but HP proof 3inch chamber Zoli for 600quid, its a great deal!  I smiled and declined his wonderful deal and went to another RFD and asked if they stocked standard steel and was told yep here you go 32gram 3s. According to this video these are actually HP cartridges?? Both my Yeoman and Sarasketa are still in one piece and no split barrels so far.

 

[Scully]

6 hours ago, Rob85 said:

No matter when I think I've got it sussed the debate reopens. I thought "right ill give standard steel a go because that can go through my full chokes" I go to the RFD and ask for some to try.... oh you will split your barrels I've saw it happen! Buy this rusty barrelled but HP proof 3inch chamber Zoli for 600quid, its a great deal!  I smiled and declined his wonderful deal and went to another RFD and asked if they stocked standard steel and was told yep here you go 32gram 3s. According to this video these are actually HP cartridges?? Both my Yeoman and Sarasketa are still in one piece and no split barrels so far.

 

Indeed. Twice now I’ve been told that HP steel shot proofed chokes will negate the need for proofing, once by a dealer. 
I’m assuming wildfowlers, who have had to use steel for some years now, have used it in their nitro only proofed guns, in bigger shot than 4’s? Or did they all make the change and buy HP proofed guns as soon as the legislation came into force? 
A dealer very recently told me he wouldn’t put ANY steel through a full choked trap gun….‘you’ll ruin your gun’,  regardless of what proofing it had, which steel and what choke, regardless of shot size. This leaves me ( if his advice is fact ) faced with the dilemma of opening up both guns to half (?) quarter (?) having to pay for reproofing but probably devaluing both guns in the process? 

 

[London Best]

4 minutes ago, Scully said:

Indeed. Twice now I’ve been told that HP steel shot proofed chokes will negate the need for proofing, once by a dealer. 
I’m assuming wildfowlers, who have had to use steel for some years now, have used it in their nitro only proofed guns, in bigger shot than 4’s? Or did they all make the change and buy HP proofed guns as soon as the legislation came into force? 
A dealer very recently told me he wouldn’t put ANY steel through a full choked trap gun….‘you’ll ruin your gun’,  regardless of what proofing it had, which steel and what choke, regardless of shot size. This leaves me ( if his advice is fact ) faced with the dilemma of opening up both guns to half (?) quarter (?) having to pay for reproofing but probably devaluing both guns in the process? 

 

Over the last 25 years I have used steel for all my duck and goose shooting. Never anything I understood to be ‘high performance’, but 32 gram 70mm in 4’s and occasionally 3’s. This all went through a 26 inch cheap Spanish SxS made in 1974. The barrels are still pristine (well, inside!). But I have to say the barrels are true cyl and quarter choke. I had them bored that way as soon as I bought the gun new. I find I shoot far more with open chokes.

[Poor Shot]

9 hours ago, Rob85 said:

No matter when I think I've got it sussed the debate reopens. I thought "right ill give standard steel a go because that can go through my full chokes" I go to the RFD and ask for some to try.... oh you will split your barrels I've saw it happen! Buy this rusty barrelled but HP proof 3inch chamber Zoli for 600quid, its a great deal!  I smiled and declined his wonderful deal and went to another RFD and asked if they stocked standard steel and was told yep here you go 32gram 3s. According to this video these are actually HP cartridges?? Both my Yeoman and Sarasketa are still in one piece and no split barrels so far.

 

The 3's are technically HP due to the shot size being a 3 or larger, this is despite them only reaching roughly the same pressures as the same cartridge in a shot size 4 or larger. Something to do with the inability of the larger shot sizes to compress sufficiently through a choke without an increase in pressure. 

Steel shot is a minefield and we're still relatively early days in its use and development. I can imagine that the same sort of issues and discussions took place when switching from BP to nitro proofing way back when. I can also imagine that a lot more people just carried on with nitro cartridges in BP only guns regardless. 

[London Best]

6 minutes ago, Poor Shot said:

I can also imagine that a lot more people just carried on with nitro cartridges in BP only guns regardless. 

I am certain that most did! 
I once went to buy a Damascus 20 bore hammer gun from an old chap in his 80’s. 
When I got there the gun was a conversion from a pin fire. 
He had no idea it was only Black Powder prod and had himself been firing nitro cartridges in it for over sixty years. 
Not uncommon I am sure. 
I have a Dickson of Edinburgh non-rebounding lock hammer gun which Dickson’s have confirmed was made in 1865. When I bought it it had been out that morning shooting clays with nitro cartridges.

[wymberley]

43 minutes ago, Poor Shot said:

The 3's are technically HP due to the shot size being a 3 or larger, this is despite them only reaching roughly the same pressures as the same cartridge in a shot size 4 or larger. Something to do with the inability of the larger shot sizes to compress sufficiently through a choke without an increase in pressure. 

Bridging?

[rbrowning2]

I have yet to see the U.K. proof houses publish recommendations on using steel shot, all so far looks to have originated from the cartridge manufactures. If I am wrong please post a link.

[wymberley]

50 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

I have yet to see the U.K. proof houses publish recommendations on using steel shot, all so far looks to have originated from the cartridge manufactures. If I am wrong please post a link.

Any help?

CIP/SAAMI Regulations (steel-shot.com)

[rbrowning2]

47 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Any help?

CIP/SAAMI Regulations (steel-shot.com)

 

Not as such, that’s just BASC repeating what’s on C&G/ Steel shot company advice, I would like to see that or similar written by the proof houses or even CIP.

 But thanks for posting.

 

[Scully]

5 hours ago, London Best said:

Over the last 25 years I have used steel for all my duck and goose shooting. Never anything I understood to be ‘high performance’, but 32 gram 70mm in 4’s and occasionally 3’s. This all went through a 26 inch cheap Spanish SxS made in 1974. The barrels are still pristine (well, inside!). But I have to say the barrels are true cyl and quarter choke. I had them bored that way as soon as I bought the gun new. I find I shoot far more with open chokes.

I have done similar on ducks through an old Winchester 101 Diamond Grade, choked at quarter and half. I used Gamebore Super steel 3’s and 4’s, totally unaware I was doing anything remotely dodgy……by todays advice that is. 
If it did the gun harm then I couldn’t see where, and the person I eventually sold it to was perfectly happy with it. 

[Dave at kelton]

Yep Wildfowlers are happily using full, aftermarket, chokes with big shot. A number of my pals use T shot. All are still alive and kicking with a full hand of fingers and no split barrels or chokes. I have also said this before. Our North American brothers have been using big shot at faster speed and higher pressure in precisely the same modern guns as us (best English aside). No issues and a simpler life. What’s our problem? Well it’s CIP rules that classify anything bigger than 4 as high pressure and limit velocity.

if you want to get hung up with all of this steel stuff that’s up to you but many of us are just getting on with it to no ill effect to ourselves or our guns as Scully says.

The only point I would make on choke is that you need a lot less choke with steel and in general I do not go above half, even in my wildfowling guns, based on pattern.

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

 

Not as such, that’s just BASC repeating what’s on C&G/ Steel shot company advice, I would like to see that or similar written by the proof houses or even CIP.

 But thanks for posting.

 

This link any better?

https://pdf4pro.com/amp/view/cip-regulations-on-steel-shot-chircu-prod-impex-4f6ec3.html

[GingerCat]

1 hour ago, Dave at kelton said:

Yep Wildfowlers are happily using full, aftermarket, chokes with big shot. A number of my pals use T shot. All are still alive and kicking with a full hand of fingers and no split barrels or chokes. I have also said this before. Our North American brothers have been using big shot at faster speed and higher pressure in precisely the same modern guns as us (best English aside). No issues and a simpler life. What’s our problem? Well it’s CIP rules that classify anything bigger than 4 as high pressure and limit velocity.

if you want to get hung up with all of this steel stuff that’s up to you but many of us are just getting on with it to no ill effect to ourselves or our guns as Scully says.

The only point I would make on choke is that you need a lot less choke with steel and in general I do not go above half, even in my wildfowling guns, based on pattern.

This. 

I bought an al390 3in chamber a number of years ago. I didn't and still don't plan on using steel or 3in loads but I asked the question "can I fire hp 3 inch steel thru this". The reply was "all day long". He went on for some time about it but to summarise the yanks have been firing exactly that thru the same guns made in the same place, in America for years with no issue. Saami and cip differ somewhat but I can't believe a mass produced (civilian) firearm is built differently to cater for those differences. 

Edited to add he was an gun actual smith and not a retailer. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by GingerCat

[8 shot]

6 hours ago, Scully said:

This leaves me ( if his advice is fact ) faced with the dilemma of opening up both guns to half (?) quarter (?) having to pay for reproofing but probably devaluing both guns in the process? 

I think HP Proof will soon become the standard proof mark on all NEW guns, hence devaluing any that aren't. 

[Scully]

2 hours ago, Dave at kelton said:

Yep Wildfowlers are happily using full, aftermarket, chokes with big shot. A number of my pals use T shot. All are still alive and kicking with a full hand of fingers and no split barrels or chokes. I have also said this before. Our North American brothers have been using big shot at faster speed and higher pressure in precisely the same modern guns as us (best English aside). No issues and a simpler life. What’s our problem? Well it’s CIP rules that classify anything bigger than 4 as high pressure and limit velocity.

if you want to get hung up with all of this steel stuff that’s up to you but many of us are just getting on with it to no ill effect to ourselves or our guns as Scully says.

The only point I would make on choke is that you need a lot less choke with steel and in general I do not go above half, even in my wildfowling guns, based on pattern.

At last! A post of logic and sanity!

1 hour ago, 8 shot said:

I think HP Proof will soon become the standard proof mark on all NEW guns, hence devaluing any that aren't. 

I totally agree. I just hope those who have them ( the devalued guns ) keep on using them. 

[Fargo]

Steel is very simple just people like to get all funny about it.

 

[rbrowning2]

4 hours ago, wymberley said:

This link any better?

https://pdf4pro.com/amp/view/cip-regulations-on-steel-shot-chircu-prod-impex-4f6ec3.html

Spot on thanks, interesting very last paragraph.

 

[Scully]

23 hours ago, wymberley said:

This link any better?

https://pdf4pro.com/amp/view/cip-regulations-on-steel-shot-chircu-prod-impex-4f6ec3.html

Anyone know if the ‘decisions’ arrived at during this ‘plenary’ meeting are based on actual tests? 
As the proof house determines a gun is safe to use via a determined level of proof, wouldn’t it be logical for that establishment to conduct tests of steel shot through each commonly available constriction?
As far as I know this may already have been done, but if so, why all the conjecture, contradictory information and confusion? If it hasn’t been done, why not?  
I’m assuming it’s in the vested interests of all cartridge manufacturers, gun makers and shooting organisations? 
 

[Dave at kelton]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Anyone know if the ‘decisions’ arrived at during this ‘plenary’ meeting are based on actual tests? 
As the proof house determines a gun is safe to use via a determined level of proof, wouldn’t it be logical for that establishment to conduct tests of steel shot through each commonly available constriction?
As far as I know this may already have been done, but if so, why all the conjecture, contradictory information and confusion? If it hasn’t been done, why not?  
I’m assuming it’s in the vested interests of all cartridge manufacturers, gun makers and shooting organisations? 
 

You can see where this is going. Just like mobile phones, manufacturers reinventing the wheel just to be able to sell new ones by declaring the last model as out of date. You must have HP Steel Proof to be safe so come and buy our latest……blah blah blah. Trading on fear. Well, having shot standard steel in an old thin walled SxS English sidelock, in a modern but not steel proof OU, and HP steel in standard proofed semi auto with tight choke, I won’t be upgrading! None of the aforesaid have suffered any adverse side effects and nor have I.

[flippermaj]

Agree totally with Dave above and have used steel for fowling just asDave has.

interesting article in the latest basc mag, the chap fired steel out of a muzzle loader without using any wad cup at all,   No damage to the barrel at all.  Not sure I am ready for that yet!

[Sweet11-87]

On 09/11/2023 at 18:54, rbrowning2 said:

Stoped watching it when he went on about High Velocity but referencing shot size, clearly not someone to take advice from as its High Performance not velocity.

 

yeah he said anything bigger than a steel 4 is "high velocity" ive got a slab of eley vip eco steel  32g 3s at 1230fps that are neither high velocity or high performance.

each to their own but for me its painfully simple  fleur de lis- high performance, anything else -standard steel.  as for chokes ive found it starts to make no diffrence or blows the pattern out worse after half choke so i just use  half maximum across the board.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Sweet11-87