Quality of new guns

[pux]

41 minutes ago, London Best said:

Fixed it for you.

So kind, thank you.

[Gerry78]

On 27/11/2023 at 14:46, BrowningDJC said:

Just wondered if anyone else thinks the quality of modern guns has gone down considerably. 
Friends of mine have had quality problems with both berettas and Caesar guerinis. I’ve always shot brownings and swapped my 425 I had for years for a 725, and the clearcote on the action came off in months. Bought a new A5 sixteen bore which had to go back for a refund as couldn’t get it to cycle, whereas my old B2000 is faultless. 
Gun shop racks seem to be full of guns with hefty price tags but the looks and finish don’t seem to justify them. 

I first bought the New A5 black synthetic years back New 12g for Wildfowling it was the worse gun I ever had regarding cycling and trigger sticking I sold it and bought a Aya S/S double trigger 40 years old and the gun works top class Me personally I think some manufacturers have let there standards Drop 

[JohnfromUK]

41 minutes ago, old'un said:

I realize a CNC machined gun will need some hand finishing but the question is….is a “hand made gun” better than a CNC machined gun?

 

That's difficult (for me anyway) to answer.  Both my new guns would (at the time I bought them) have been very much 'hand finished'.  The Beretta carefully so (it is an SO model), the Spanish rather less as it was a cheap gun.

The thing with hand finishing is that it is made to the standard the gunmaker applies.  That is 'to his satisfaction' and best ability.  There isn't a tolerance applied that must account for tool wear etc.  It can be done to 'exactly right'.  A CNC engineered design needs to account for tolerances, (i.e. to allow for temperature differences, tool wear, interchangeability of spares etc.).  The true hand made is made to be just right with one set of matched parts.  You don't need to allow for a barrel machined in the heat of summer with fresh tools to fit an action made in the cold of winter with tools nearing the end of their life.  Parts are fitted together as a dedicated pair.

It's expensive and spares need similar hand fitting ........... but you get the best a skilled man can do, not something that has to allow for tolerance.

My 100+ year old Henry Atkin (which is a genuine handmade London gun pre WW1) still feels slick with everything operating with exceptional smoothness and no 'slack' free movement.  It is fair to say it would have had maintenance over the years, but it is basically 'original'.  Would a modern machine made last so well?

[old'un]

14 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

That's difficult (for me anyway) to answer.  Both my new guns would (at the time I bought them) have been very much 'hand finished'.  The Beretta carefully so (it is an SO model), the Spanish rather less as it was a cheap gun.

The thing with hand finishing is that it is made to the standard the gunmaker applies.  That is 'to his satisfaction' and best ability.  There isn't a tolerance applied that must account for tool wear etc.  It can be done to 'exactly right'.  A CNC engineered design needs to account for tolerances, (i.e. to allow for temperature differences, tool wear, interchangeability of spares etc.).  The true hand made is made to be just right with one set of matched parts.  You don't need to allow for a barrel machined in the heat of summer with fresh tools to fit an action made in the cold of winter with tools nearing the end of their life.  Parts are fitted together as a dedicated pair.

It's expensive and spares need similar hand fitting ........... but you get the best a skilled man can do, not something that has to allow for tolerance.

My 100+ year old Henry Atkin (which is a genuine handmade London gun pre WW1) still feels slick with everything operating with exceptional smoothness and no 'slack' free movement.  It is fair to say it would have had maintenance over the years, but it is basically 'original'.  Would a modern machine made last so well?

The only reason guns were hand made in the day was because they never had CNC machines, modern CNC’s can produce thousands of components with repeated accuracy using the correct tooling, coolant and tool wear monitoring.

When I was an apprentice toolmaker back in the 60s I was asked as part of my training to cut a piece of mild steel from a bar and make a perfectly square block of 2”, the only tools I was given were a bench vice, a set square and a selection of files, the block needed to be flat and square on every face with a fine finish and no file lines showing, took bloody ages…..move forward to CNC machining and the job can be done much faster and with more precision and with a mirror finish if required.

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, old'un said:

The only reason guns were hand made in the day was because they never had CNC machines, modern CNC’s can produce thousands of components with repeated accuracy using the correct tooling, coolant and tool wear monitoring.

When I was an apprentice toolmaker back in the 60s I was asked as part of my training to cut a piece of mild steel from a bar and make a perfectly square block of 2”, the only tools I was given were a bench vice, a set square and a selection of files, the block needed to be flat and square on every face with a fine finish and no file lines showing, took bloody ages…..move forward to CNC machining and the job can be done much faster and with more precision and with a mirror finish if required.

I have not handled any 'new' best grade guns, but I have been left unimpressed by the smoothness and feel of a few new (modest budget) guns that I have handled.

[wymberley]

30 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I have not handled any 'new' best grade guns, but I have been left unimpressed by the smoothness and feel of a few new (modest budget) guns that I have handled.

Your previous post was spot on. 

To misquote a well known shooting 'name' (which applies to any industry manufacturing products which are to be sold), 'gunmakers don't make guns, accountants do'. Even if you paid a bunch of highly skilled artisans nothing more than the minimum wage, the necessary asking price to clear a profit when selling a fully hand made gun would render the company unviable. Currently, the quality of any product is a function of tolerances - the lower the + or - percentages the better the product. As we're told, perfection takes ages and in any industry is unaffordable. Working as a tool maker in the finishing department with nothing but some diamond paste and a little hickory stick and although very fine, tolerances were still applied to my work. Given quality raw materials, close tolerance tooling machinery and a skilled finishing team should produce a gun 'built to last' - less so when the tolerances are relaxed.

[London Best]

1 hour ago, old'un said:

The only reason guns were hand made in the day was because they never had CNC machines, modern CNC’s can produce thousands of components with repeated accuracy using the correct tooling, coolant and tool wear monitoring.

When I was an apprentice toolmaker back in the 60s I was asked as part of my training to cut a piece of mild steel from a bar and make a perfectly square block of 2”, the only tools I was given were a bench vice, a set square and a selection of files, the block needed to be flat and square on every face with a fine finish and no file lines showing, took bloody ages…..move forward to CNC machining and the job can be done much faster and with more precision and with a mirror finish if required.

I, too, was an apprentice toolmaker in the ‘60’s. I had the same task. My cube was 1”.

Today, the best gunmakers use C.N.C. for roughing out, albeit very close. The finest finishing is still done by hand.

[wymberley]

24 minutes ago, London Best said:

I, too, was an apprentice toolmaker in the ‘60’s. I had the same task. My cube was 1”.

Today, the best gunmakers use C.N.C. for roughing out, albeit very close. The finest finishing is still done by hand.

Just half the job, then: 

RAF Halton Tribute (87thhalton.org.uk)

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by wymberley

[London Best]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Just half the job, then:

 

 

Probably only 1/8.

[wymberley]

13 minutes ago, London Best said:

Probably only 1/8.

Ah! With you.   But I was referring to the test piece having 2 parts.

[London Best]

Just now, wymberley said:

Ah! With you.   But I was referring to the test piece having 2 parts.

Gotcha! 
I remember making both parts, but cannot recall which was done first. 
Probably the plate I would guess.

[Gordon R]

My friend Mark bought a Beretta Teknys Gold auto, which was allegedly a step up in Beretta autos. The receiver corroded and was changed by Beretta. The gun refused to cycle properly - a couple of instances every week. The cure was to retro fit a lifter from a previous model, which was stiffer. Progress - not in my book.

[London Best]

Can’t remember exactly when, but probably about 7/8 years ago now, an RFD friend of mine, a Beretta main dealer, had a factory visit/tour around the Beretta factory. He was far from impressed by the Silver Pigeon production line and told me it was his opinion that each gun could not have been costing Beretta more than £150 to turn out. One thing I remember him saying was that the stocks were finished by hanging on a wire continuously running through a spray booth.

[button]

I do wonder how many of the posters criticising the quality of new Browning, Beretta, CG etc have actually owned one? Or is it a case of “my mate told me” 

My FIL bought a new BMW top of the range and has nothing but issues? Does that make all BMWs bad? I don’t think so I think he was just unlucky

[Dave at kelton]

Hmmm, what goes around comes around. I sort of think the same discussion was had in the 50s and 60s when Spanish guns by the likes of AYA started coming into the U.K. Traditional gunmakers banging their gums and yet now we see they are still going fine.

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

yet now we see they are still going fine.

Don't think that's so.  Yes, the Purdeys and 'top of the range' names are still being made and (presumably) doing OK albeit many are owned by larger overseas gunmakers/luxury good groups, but the vast Birmingham (mainly) industry for everyday mass market guns has gone.  Many of the 'English names' are made overseas now.

Like the motor industry, the 'top of the range' names like Rolls Royce, Bentley are still being made and (presumably) doing OK, but all the everyday mass market Austin, Morris, Rover, and many many others have gone.

[Old farrier]

17 minutes ago, button said:

I do wonder how many of the posters criticising the quality of new Browning, Beretta, CG etc have actually owned one? Or is it a case of “my mate told me” 

My FIL bought a new BMW top of the range and has nothing but issues? Does that make all BMWs bad? I don’t think so I think he was just unlucky

Funny you should say that 😊😂

tend to agree 

there’s going to be good and bad in anything that’s made operating errors with cnc/program errors 

man error with hand made it’s bound to happen with all things 

sometimes you’re just unlucky other times especially when buying second hand lack of routine maintenance previously can increase the chances of problems 

I bought a new browning of a lad (he bought it new) he had had nothing but trouble with it he sent it back under warranty a few times but the problem persisted 

good internal clean and dry out the massive amount of oil in the action caused by storing it butt down and it hasn’t missed a beat since 

he’s now having problems with his new cg? 

 

[button]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

Don't think that's so.  Yes, the Purdeys and 'top of the range' names are still being made and (presumably) doing OK albeit many are owned by larger overseas gunmakers/luxury good groups, but the vast Birmingham (mainly) industry for everyday mass market guns has gone.  Many of the 'English names' are made overseas now.

Like the motor industry, the 'top of the range' names like Rolls Royce, Bentley are still being made and (presumably) doing OK, but all the everyday mass market Austin, Morris, Rover, and many many others have gone.

But surely that’s a case of how they do business rather than issues with the product, because your costs increase, you can’t just keep raising the selling price but leaving the product essentially the same, hence the demise of W&S as an example who found it hard to compete against the likes of AYA

[Dave at kelton]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

Don't think that's so.  Yes, the Purdeys and 'top of the range' names are still being made and (presumably) doing OK albeit many are owned by larger overseas gunmakers/luxury good groups, but the vast Birmingham (mainly) industry for everyday mass market guns has gone.  Many of the 'English names' are made overseas now.

Like the motor industry, the 'top of the range' names like Rolls Royce, Bentley are still being made and (presumably) doing OK, but all the everyday mass market Austin, Morris, Rover, and many many others have gone.

Sorry poor composition I meant the AYAs etc are doing fine. I agree with your point on the English trade. The imports were the start of the end for many.

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, button said:

But surely that’s a case of how they do business rather than issues with the product, because your costs increase, you can’t just keep raising the selling price but leaving the product essentially the same, hence the demise of W&S as an example who found it hard to compete against the likes of AYA

My intention was that I disagree "They are still going fine" as I assumed the post referred to the businesses.  Most of the British gunmaking industry (e.g. the huge Birmingham manufacturing operation) had no issues with the product ............ but have gone because of lower cost competition.  Same for the British motor industry.

However both have retained business at the very top of the market.

[JohnfromUK]

13 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

Sorry poor composition I meant the AYAs etc are doing fine.

No problem ......... although in fact now, AyA have much reduced their range - all the 'lower end' stuff has gone (Yeoman and No 3 and No 4 boxlocks) - I believe they only offer two boxlocks, the Best Quality Boxlock  (£13,500 list price) and 4/53 (which now has an eye watering list price of almost £11,000).

Not sure how much the volume of sales has declined but with the cheapest boxlock at almost £11K and a No 2 at over £13K and a No 1 nudging at £27K (list prices inclusive of VAT) - I can't believe sales are huge.  I do wonder if they are actually doing OK at those prices.

The guns themselves are were nicely made as priced originally ............ but my No 1 I would be disappointed in if I'd paid £27K (I paid around 12% of that second hand).

Edited November 30, 2023 by JohnfromUK

[button]

7 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

No problem ......... although in fact now, AyA have much reduced their range - all the 'lower end' stuff has gone (Yeoman and No 3 and No 4 boxlocks) - I believe they only offer two boxlocks, the Best Quality Boxlock  (£13,500 list price) and 4/53 (which now has an eye watering list price of almost £11,000).

Not sure how much the volume of sales has declined but with the cheapest boxlock at almost £11K and a No 2 at over £13K and a No 1 nudging at £27K (list prices inclusive of VAT) - I can't believe sales are huge.  I do wonder if they are actually doing OK at those prices.

The guns themselves are were nicely made as priced originally ............ but my No 1 I would be disappointed in if I'd paid £27K (I paid around 12% of that second hand).

Bang on, and they will go the same way as very few could justify that kind of money on a boxlock, especially when you can get a very good used example for sub £800

[matone]

54 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

No problem ......... although in fact now, AyA have much reduced their range - all the 'lower end' stuff has gone (Yeoman and No 3 and No 4 boxlocks) - I believe they only offer two boxlocks, the Best Quality Boxlock  (£13,500 list price) and 4/53 (which now has an eye watering list price of almost £11,000).

Not sure how much the volume of sales has declined but with the cheapest boxlock at almost £11K and a No 2 at over £13K and a No 1 nudging at £27K (list prices inclusive of VAT) - I can't believe sales are huge.  I do wonder if they are actually doing OK at those prices.

The guns themselves are were nicely made as priced originally ............ but my No 1 I would be disappointed in if I'd paid £27K (I paid around 12% of that second hand).

I would think that they`re slowly dying the death of many gunmakers before them . Who is buying their product ? Very,very few here and from what I`ve read,similar in the USA . Sad but irreversible I`d think.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, matone said:

I would think that they`re slowly dying the death of many gunmakers before them . Who is buying their product ? Very,very few here and from what I`ve read,similar in the USA . Sad but irreversible I`d think.

Agreed

[enfieldspares]

OPM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_People's_Money

Sadly. But I agree. Webley & Scott as it was when on Weaman Street. I wish I didn't. But then again the British Government, Thatcher, also did the job on Royal Ordnance. Sold to her cronies as a going concern (and as part of that the British Army saddled with SA80) for something like £6 Million, the site then closed by said cronies and sold as building land for £36 Million. 

Anyway...OPM:

Quote

In his rebuttal, Garfield compares New England Wire & Cable to the last buggy whip manufacturer, arguing that even though the company's product may be high quality, changing technology has rendered it obsolete. Rather than running a failing business into the ground, he contends that the shareholders should follow his lead and get what value they can from the stock before the company's inevitable demise. At least when this company is liquidated, he says, they'll end up with a few dollars in their pocket.

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by enfieldspares