Bobba Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 A friend has applied for a SGC and is now in the queue…….. meanwhile, he would like to try various shotguns shooting clays. Am I right in my thinking that provided we carried our shotguns into and out of the clay ground - so that he does not become in possession of a shotgun without a SGC, that he may shoot clays under the clay shooting ground licence? Advice welcomed. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 (edited) The clay ground will likely have a police issued section 11(6) exemption that will allow your friend to shoot artificial targets on a clay ground, provided he is not a banned person to own a firearm which given he has applied for a SGC is unlikely. Just check with the ground first. Edited February 17 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyb Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 I’ve shot a few times with non SGC holders. The grounds are fine with it as long as you’re supervising and ensuring safe procedure is followed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_b_wales Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 As above. 👌 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 He can also buy ammunition at the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 3 hours ago, Westley said: He can also buy ammunition at the ground. But only for use at that ground on that day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 So what is there to prevent them from taking the cartridges home ? There is no offence of being in possession of shotgun ammunition without a Certificate, only purchasing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munst Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 (edited) Every place is different, some ground require staff supervision for non license holders. Assume nothing, check with the ground, preferably before you turn up. Edited February 17 by Munst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goo1 Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 1 hour ago, Westley said: So what is there to prevent them from taking the cartridges home ? There is no offence of being in possession of shotgun ammunition without a Certificate, only purchasing it. So he can’t leave the ground with cartridges he’s purchased there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 (edited) 51 minutes ago, goo1 said: So he can’t leave the ground with cartridges he’s purchased there Yes, he can. There is no offence of being in possession of shotgun ammo. without a Certificate. You can GIVE shotgun ammo to a none certificate holder, you just can't sell it to them. The shooting ground with a Sec. 11(6) in place can sell it to them. I omitted to say the person in possession of the ammunition MUST be over 18. Edited February 17 by Westley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 13 hours ago, Bobba said: A friend has applied for a SGC and is now in the queue…….. meanwhile, he would like to try various shotguns shooting clays. Am I right in my thinking that provided we carried our shotguns into and out of the clay ground - so that he does not become in possession of a shotgun without a SGC, that he may shoot clays under the clay shooting ground licence? Advice welcomed. Thank you. Check with the clay ground. The one South of Bristol is very relaxed and shouldn’t be an issue, but check as you never know they have have tightened up. The ones North of Bristol are strict and won’t let non SGC shoot unless with an instructor (one of theirs) which obvs makes it costly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 There are a few grounds following the must have a 'safety lesson' first. They quote Insurance purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 He should be required to do some paperwork and make a declaration that he’s not a prohibited person iv taken many over the years and things have changed from laid back to sign the sheet to more formal paperwork something I don’t have a problem with it there ground there rules as far as taking leftover cartridges home why would you 🤔 buy 50 shoot 50 simple no point in causing possible problems for your application Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 10 hours ago, Westley said: So what is there to prevent them from taking the cartridges home ? There is no offence of being in possession of shotgun ammunition without a Certificate, only purchasing it. As an unlicensed user of a firearm he is allowed to buy what he needs for the day, no more and not allowed to take them from the ground. If he buys too many he can give them back or give them to a SGC holder at the ground. Really VERY simple and certainly not worth pushing the boundaries. One would hope that in order to encourage new shooters grounds would go out of their way to accomodate them. BUT, within the law and if they choose to insist upon a safety lesson as the starting point then take the safety lesson. We have all seen people shooting who need reminding about their poor behaviour, why not start off properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 I believe that the law was passed in that way to allow loaders etc. to be in possession of ammunition without being a Certificate holder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 15 minutes ago, Westley said: I believe that the law was passed in that way to allow loaders etc. to be in possession of ammunition without being a Certificate holder. Which is fine but he’s not a loader he’s a novice that wants to learn to shoot and try out some different guns so not really applicable in this gent’s case 😊 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 You do NOT require a Shotgun Certificate to be in possession of shotgun ammunition if you are over age 18 in England...........END OF ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 Based on all of the above, I shall await to see how many 'strip searches' are carried out at my local grounds, just to check that nobody is smuggling ammunition out of the ground, without a Certificate ! 🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougy Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 I would have thought that it would be common courtesy to ask the clay ground if its possible to have your friend use your shotgun without them having a SG cert, its their land business. And being quite honest why wouldn't anyone ask before assuming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 16 hours ago, Dougy said: I would have thought that it would be common courtesy to ask the clay ground if its possible to have your friend use your shotgun without them having a SG cert, its their land business. And being quite honest why wouldn't anyone ask before assuming This ^^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 20 hours ago, Dougy said: I would have thought that it would be common courtesy to ask the clay ground if its possible to have your friend use your shotgun without them having a SG cert, its their land business. And being quite honest why wouldn't anyone ask before assuming Having run a shooting ground, I can vouch for the fact that a LOT do not ask. Usually in a group, they often have just the one gun between them. IF, I encounter any on the grounds that I attend, I let the Owner know. Of course, if they are in any way unsafe, I will step in and tell them. I would sooner be unpopular, than a witness to a shooting. I have first hand experience of the devastation a close range shotgun injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HantsRob Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 I believe there is lots of good practice, site policy, and not too much law discussed here. The Firearms Act is prescriptive. Section 11(6) of the Firearms Act 1968 states: "A person may, without holding a shotgun certificate, use a shotgun at a time and place approved for shooting at artificial targets by the Chief Officer of police for the area in which that place is situated." It does not put any regulation around the purchasing of ammunition. The closest I can find to a government document is scottish and out of date, but states: 2.50 A shotgun certificate is not required to possess or acquire shotgun cartridges containing five or more shot, none of which exceeds .36 inch in diameter. All ordinary shot cartridges are covered by this description. However, a shotgun certificate (or firearm certificate authorising possession of a section 1 shotgun) is normally required to purchase shotgun cartridges. All single bulleted ammunition, for example solid slug, spherical ball or projectiles for birdscaring equipment, is subject to the requirement for a firearm certificate. (ref: https://www.sceguk.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/24/2015/07/Home-Office-Guide-on-Firearms-Licensing-Law.pdf ) I have read the firearms act a few times over the years and I do not know of any part of UK legislation that means a valid SGC or FAC needs to be shown to purchase "normal" shotgun cartridges, and it is an industry best practice that suggests you need to show a licence. I would extend this to an 11(6) exemption, that only what is required is purchased. I see no reason to purchase more than that. That said, I think that's good H&S, good industry practice, and indeed possibly even an insurance caveat. I can see why someone wants to pay the thou price and buy a thousand shells to pay £7 a box rather than £12 a box at some grounds. I also don't see a legal necessity to preclude them keeping spares. I think a new shooter should consider a factor that it may not look healthy in the eyes of an FEO to have a thousand spare carts before getting a licence, however wouldn't stop a licence issuance as it's not illegal. If anyone can state the law where you must need a licence to purchase ammo either as a SGC holder or a non-holder (excluding those persons not allowed to own or handle a gun due to legal convictions or health), then I'd love to read that. My caveat that "I think HantsRob is right" is that many grounds may have rules, insurance, best practice that complements the law by being more restrictive. But, in police talk, policy cannot override law. In this instance, I believe policy is actually helping the law by being stricter. On 18/02/2024 at 09:28, Westley said: You do NOT require a Shotgun Certificate to be in possession of shotgun ammunition if you are over age 18 in England...........END OF ! Agreed. With the addition of: Prohibited persons as defined by Section 21 of the Firearms Act 1968 (If known) must not be permitted to be in possession of guns or ammunition. On 18/02/2024 at 06:15, TIGHTCHOKE said: Really VERY simple and certainly not worth pushing the boundaries. One would hope that in order to encourage new shooters grounds would go out of their way to accomodate them. BUT, within the law and if they choose to insist upon a safety lesson as the starting point then take the safety lesson. We have all seen people shooting who need reminding about their poor behaviour, why not start off properly. TC, I don't necessarily agree with the law aspect, however this resonates as good/best practice regardless, and is sage advice as usual. A ground that's interested in keeping all shooters safe and provide safety briefs or lessons is one that has diligence and responsible owners. On 17/02/2024 at 09:30, Pyb said: I’ve shot a few times with non SGC holders. The grounds are fine with it as long as you’re supervising and ensuring safe procedure is followed. Before I got my licence, and when I have taken friends out who don't own one, I always checked the ground had an 11(6) and any necessary rules I'd need to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 any help? It is an offence to sell cartridges to someone without seeing their shotgun certificate, except where the recipient is a Crown servant or where a person produces a certificate authorising another person to possess such a gun, together with that person’s written authority to purchase the ammunition on his behalf. from https://basc.org.uk/firearms/shotgun-safety/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 Not sure if the BASC advice is accurate. Non certificate holders can buy shells at a clay ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 2 hours ago, Gordon R said: Not sure if the BASC advice is accurate. Non certificate holders can buy shells at a clay ground. I'm assuming this would be covered under the section 11 exemption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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