BASC update on voluntary transition away from lead shot and and single-use plastics for live quarry

[Konor]

5 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

Bit strong mate,  agreed he’s worded a few of his post different to what I’d of done but if he calls it a day on pigeon watch what’s achieved? 
 

he’s butted heads with a few people on here and resolved it in a phone call.
 

I’ve not seen anyone else from basc rock up to get involved.  Atleast he’s willing to comment. 

I’m not seeking Conor to be excluded or to have him exclude himself. The nature of healthy debate should involve a range of attitudes and experience so I’m not for the forum becoming an echo chamber. However I do expect contributors to engage willingly and honestly and not be selective with their information or what points they choose to comment on or ignore. It is frustrating when you are seeking answers not only for yourself but for others on the forum and other posters deliberately misunderstand in order to avoid replying. If you read through all the posts you can come to your own conclusions and decide yourself whether you thinkmy criticism is justified. Incidentally  I’m no troll I’m not on here to be deliberately unpleasant to anyone I just feel aggrieved that I should commit time to the forum which is wasted by the likes of Conor O’Gorman

[shaun4860]

Can we please try to keep this civil and avoid personal or derogatory comments 

Ta muchly 

[Conor O'Gorman]

14 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

This what I refer to as a letter being the exact same thing that you then quote below.

Be it a letter, statement, bulletin, press release, information update, news announcement of February 2020 is it not the same thing?

No it's not the same thing. A 'BASC letter' is not the same thing as a joint statement issued by nine organisations. Please be factual in what your post about BASC.

14 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

I'll make it easy. Two questions. Both can be answered with a simple Yes or a simple No.

1) Are lead pellets in avian and other game meat, shot with a shotgun, if ingested, potentially harmful to health?

2) Are lead bullet shards, in avian and other game meat, shot with a rifle, if ingested potentially harmful to health? 

Yes to both.

[Rewulf]

16 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Please be factual in what your post about BASC.

A bit rich 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Some observations resulting from recent comments.

There have been assertions and questions about my 'role' on this forum. I don't have a 'role' on this forum. I am just a member like anyone else. As PW members we each post and comment on certain topics or shooting interests subject to ongoing permission by the site owners to do so. I focus on updates from BASC, for whom I have worked for since 2003. I have been posting on this forum since 2008. I don't 'represent' BASC on this forum albeit I appreciate the lines can blur. For a time 'DavidBASC' did represent BASC on this forum (clue was in the username). I choose to post on this forum as I decide, I debate as I decide, and if I choose to leave for weeks or months on end or forever, that is my choice. I have given a lot of my spare time on this forum helping and advising people on a myriad topics. And in turn I have gained valuable insights and advice from experienced shooters that helps inform my work. I accept constructive feedback, even a bit of banter at my expense, and take on board a myriad views. However, for some time now a small number of people, perhaps a dozen, are taking the liberty, being disrespectful, trolling and even abusive. Let's be clear, I am not obliged to respond to every query and POV on this forum just because I work for BASC. If you don't like that, that is your problem with your misplaced expectations. If you have a problem with BASC, for whatever reason, please don't take it out on me on this forum - contact BASC directly with your complaint or query, or even attend an AGM and ask a question. Get involved and stop hiding behind your keyboard.

Back on topic. 

Before the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry started in 2020 any mention of the research into the risks from lead shot posted by any member on this forum would have been quickly shot down in flames. Sure, there are differences of opinion on the extent of the various evidenced risks and whether any action is needed, but most of us are no longer in denial mode about the evidenced risks - ie. the possibility of birds getting poisoned from eating lead shot as grit is no longer denied. That is progress.

On the wild grey partridge, something I am passionate about, the research has been around since 1968 (!), that grey partridge adults and chicks, mistakenly eat lead shot as grit, to their misfortune. Here is the paper:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225816496_Incidence_of_ingested_lead_gunshot_in_wild_grey_partridges_Perdix_perdix_from_the_UK 

Grey partridge chicks were found to be eating lead shot - some with up to 14 pieces of lead shot in their gizzard - and grinding them up into their bloodstream. Here are two extracts from the paper:

"The measured incidence of lead shot in gizzards considerably underestimates the annual exposure because the shot is retained in the gizzard only for a relatively short period of time. The average erosion of lead in the grey partridge chicks, 55%, is remarkable given that the chicks were aged only 2–3 weeks (18 days) and had presumably not ingested the lead on their first day."

"It is remarkable that between 1968 and 1978, two chicks sampled from separate broods on the Sussex Downs had, within 3 weeks of hatching, ingested 13 and 14 lead shot. Moreover, the erosion of the individual shot suggests that they were ingested within a short discrete period of time. Somewhat similarly, a grey partridge in Denmark in 1976 had ingested 34 lead shot (Clausen and Wolstrup 1979), a grey partridge in Wiltshire in 1966, 26 (this study)."

That research does give food for thought, and for those wee wild grey partridge chicks, lead minefields indeed.

Edited April 15 by Conor O'Gorman

[enfieldspares]

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

No it's not the same thing. A 'BASC letter' is not the same thing as a joint statement issued by nine organisations. Please be factual in what your post about BASC.

Yes to both.

Noted. Thank you. 

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Before the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry started in 2020 any mention of the research into the risks from lead shot posted by any member on this forum would have been quickly shot down in flames. Sure, there are differences of opinion on the extent of the various evidenced risks and whether any action is needed, but most of us are no longer in denial mode about the evidenced risks - ie. the possibility of birds getting poisoned from eating lead shot as grit is no longer denied. That is progress.

https://countrysquire.co.uk/2022/08/12/the-truth-about-lead-shot/

[mellors]

22 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

https://countrysquire.co.uk/2022/08/12/the-truth-about-lead-shot/

Well that sums it up. 

Wonder if BASC will do the right thing and actually fight it accordingly. 

I would have thought its certainly in there interest although they seem very reluctant to commit the so called fighting fund or as it has been called redundancy fund. 

[Gordon R]

Rewulf - thanks for the link. It makes interesting reading, although I suspect BASC would not be overjoyed. The old communists trick of repeating a lie so often, it becomes fact.

[Konor]

6 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

However, for some time now a small number of people, perhaps a dozen, are taking the liberty, being disrespectful, trolling and even abusive.

Perhaps it may be worthwhile questioning the cause of that disrespect and examining your own behaviour for the answer. Just a thought ,PM me for more details if required.

6 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

That research does give food for thought, and for those wee wild grey partridge chicks, lead minefields indeed.

I expect those lead minefields will be a lot thicker and numerous on overshot commercial shoots perhaps an opportunity to push for targeted restrictions to resolve the matter. I’m assuming it’s not lost on you that the reason that chick survival is so important is in order that they can be shot when the season opens on September 1st. Will it be £40 ,£50 or more per bird to shoot this coming season ? so valuable stock to be lost to lead poisoning. I see where you are coming from.

 

6 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Edited April 15 by Konor

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, mellors said:

Well that sums it up. 

3 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Rewulf - thanks for the link.

Its actually from 2 years ago.
Conors comment about progress just made me think about the BASC stance over the years, even Swifty at one point was opposed to lead bans, then came LAG , somehow it morphed into this anti lead agenda that split BASC , and ended up with them fighting against LAG, and winning in 2016, on the basis that proof was needed before lead could be considered for restriction.
Then in 2020 , with no real new evidence, BASC appeared to turn away from this core mentality, and that lead was indeed 'toxic' and thats where we are today.
It makes you wonder how these people have such conviction, then suddenly change their minds...

2 minutes ago, Konor said:

I’m assuming it’s lost on you that the reason that chick survival is so important is in order that they can be shot when the season opens on September 1st. Will it be £40 ,£50 or more per bird to shoot this coming season ? so valuable stock to be lost to lead poisoning. I see where you are coming from.

A shrewd observation, one that applies to all these 'at risk' from lead poisoning birds that no one seems able to find.

[Gordon R]

I raised the very issue, as did Scully, but it was ignored. A bit odd really. 🙂

[Konor]

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Let's be clear, I am not obliged to respond to every query and POV on this forum

But you do respond and feign misunderstanding in order to avoid replying rather than simply stating that you are not willing to comment and as a consequence you waste other forum users time.

[stockybasher]

36 minutes ago, Konor said:

But you do respond and feign misunderstanding in order to avoid replying rather than simply stating that you are not willing to comment and as a consequence you waste other forum users time.

I am finding much of this continued in-fighting very boring - yawn !!!

Give it a rest please Konor ??

 

[Konor]

3 minutes ago, stockybasher said:

I am finding much of this continued in-fighting very boring - yawn !!!

Give it a rest please Konor ??

 

You're not obliged to read it you do realise that 😂

[Weihrauch17]

9 minutes ago, stockybasher said:

I am finding much of this continued in-fighting very boring - yawn !!!

Give it a rest please Konor ??

 

You are happy to be shafted by the very organisations we pay to represent us, how refreshing.

[clangerman]

well I’m not bored thought Connor complaining to keep it factual then flogging us chick data so old it’s antique was hilarious! 

[Rewulf]

28 minutes ago, clangerman said:

well I’m not bored thought Connor complaining to keep it factual then flogging us chick data so old it’s antique was hilarious! 

Think of the wee chicks man !

[Old farrier]

14 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Think of the wee chicks man !

Awesome 👏 

back to English partridge 

I quite like them as there are virtually none in my area 

I made enquiries regarding the possibility of reintroducing them to my area with positive responses 

dually sourced eggs and incubated and hatched 200 chicks

made pens and with landowners permission and encouragement we slowly released them into suitable areas around the 2000 acres of his farm appropriate covers suitable crops with high feed value and supplementary feeding stations we also drilled the corn with a wider setting on the rows and straight line planting no zig zags 

I mowed the south facing slopes of the grass down land ten meter wide strips every ten metres across it ( contour mowing) to leave long grass for nesting and cover for any birds short grass for chicks if any 

I installed a massive amount of tunnel traps to keep rats and other predators at bay along with strong fox control measures 

we did this for 3 years total reared and released 600 

none were shot in this period of time 

most-fell to predators the biggest culprit was the peregrine falcon as the English partridge is a little smaller than the red leg that’s to heavy for the peregrine to take 

five years on there’s probably five left 

pretty sure none died from ingesting lead shot 

 

[Konor]

42 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Think of the wee chicks man !

😂 poor wee chicks ,lead minefields indeed😂

[Weihrauch17]

34 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Awesome 👏 

back to English partridge 

I quite like them as there are virtually none in my area 

I made enquiries regarding the possibility of reintroducing them to my area with positive responses 

dually sourced eggs and incubated and hatched 200 chicks

made pens and with landowners permission and encouragement we slowly released them into suitable areas around the 2000 acres of his farm appropriate covers suitable crops with high feed value and supplementary feeding stations we also drilled the corn with a wider setting on the rows and straight line planting no zig zags 

I mowed the south facing slopes of the grass down land ten meter wide strips every ten metres across it ( contour mowing) to leave long grass for nesting and cover for any birds short grass for chicks if any 

I installed a massive amount of tunnel traps to keep rats and other predators at bay along with strong fox control measures 

we did this for 3 years total reared and released 600 

none were shot in this period of time 

most-fell to predators the biggest culprit was the peregrine falcon as the English partridge is a little smaller than the red leg that’s to heavy for the peregrine to take 

five years on there’s probably five left 

pretty sure none died from ingesting lead shot 

 

Great effort 👍

[Fellside]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

https://countrysquire.co.uk/2022/08/12/the-truth-about-lead-shot/

It is an interesting read - and thank you.

My take on this piece. Some of the author’s assertions may (may!?) be true, however they are poorly evidenced as the list of references demonstrates. What we need is very robust (non biased) review of clean evidence by an external body. This task could / should have been undertaken by the HSE. Unfortunately they have proven to be biased and incapable of evaluating the science. 

In the ideal world, no authority should proceed to impose lead shot restrictions in the absence of any good contemporary science - free from biased influence. 

 

 

[8 shot]

32 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

most-fell to predators the biggest culprit was the peregrine falcon as the English partridge is a little smaller than the red leg that’s to heavy for the peregrine to take 

This......Red Kites, Buzzards around us we have quite a few on the farm late spring early summer 50% gone by the end of harvest all down to raptors

[Old farrier]

23 minutes ago, Fellside said:

It is an interesting read - and thank you.

My take on this piece. Some of the author’s assertions may (may!?) be true, however they are poorly evidenced as the list of references demonstrates. What we need is very robust (non biased) review of clean evidence by an external body. This task could / should have been undertaken by the HSE. Unfortunately they have proven to be biased and incapable of evaluating the science. 

In the ideal world, no authority should proceed to impose lead shot restrictions in the absence of any good contemporary science - free from biased influence. 

 

 

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

27 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Awesome 👏 

back to English partridge 

I quite like them as there are virtually none in my area 

I made enquiries regarding the possibility of reintroducing them to my area with positive responses 

dually sourced eggs and incubated and hatched 200 chicks

made pens and with landowners permission and encouragement we slowly released them into suitable areas around the 2000 acres of his farm appropriate covers suitable crops with high feed value and supplementary feeding stations we also drilled the corn with a wider setting on the rows and straight line planting no zig zags 

I mowed the south facing slopes of the grass down land ten meter wide strips every ten metres across it ( contour mowing) to leave long grass for nesting and cover for any birds short grass for chicks if any 

I installed a massive amount of tunnel traps to keep rats and other predators at bay along with strong fox control measures 

we did this for 3 years total reared and released 600 

none were shot in this period of time 

most-fell to predators the biggest culprit was the peregrine falcon as the English partridge is a little smaller than the red leg that’s to heavy for the peregrine to take 

five years on there’s probably five left 

pretty sure none died from ingesting lead shot 

 

That's great that you tried to get grey partridge back onto your land. It sounds like you had everything in place just not enough breeding success - which is measured by chick survival rate. Everything that reduces that rate below a certain figure (namely rainfall levels at the wrong time and the right insects at the right density at the right time) means that the population goes extinct over time.  If you are still keen on trying again the GWCT and their local groups will be a great help. The key issue is the source of birds - they need to be ones that still have the ability in the wild not only to pick good nesting sites, but to lay eggs and hatch off the chicks, and to know what to do next - both parents help out here. Happy to have a chat on the phone about all this if of interest.