Farage

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Tit for tat doesn’t really progress the discussion.

With all due respect, beyond simple logic and basic decency if you and I agree on something then I tend to doubt my judgement. Perhaps the major exception was our aligned views on the covid and lockdown fiasco.

Please double check his and his party’s position on climate change.

I think your confusing being against the financially crippling policys that have made absolutely no difference to world climate issues and denying the scientific evidence of climate change. Farage doesn't deny the science l, he's against economic self harm for no benefit.

9 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

 

I’ll be voting conservative to counter the Reform threat as I live in one of the top 5 reform constituencies.

And this is just more evidence on why our political system is so broken, assuming your not a typical torie supporter (do correct me if I'm wrong), you'll be voting for a party further right of your choice, in an attempt to keep another party out of power.

[12gauge82]

9 hours ago, oowee said:

The west provoked Putin.

For crying out loud. You do wonder if he is on the payroll. 

Following that logic, if I advised a rival gang its a bad idea to wander near the previously stable border of their opposition gang threateningly waving weapons around for fear of starting a turf war, would that make me on the payroll of the other gang? Or simply someone who wants peace?

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

Your probably right. My view is coloured somewhat, as he is one of three (Johnson and Cameron) on the block for the Brexit suicide. 😁

Funny you should say that, I blame Cameron, to a slightly lesser extent Johnson and a whole host of other remainer politicians for sabotaging brexit and delivering instead a very watered down brexit in name only.

If Farage had been allowed to lead negotiations as he wished at the time, I believe this country would be in an incredibly good position. Although we'll have to wait for Farage to get a shot at being PM to find out if I'm right or wrong. One thing's for sure, he can't be blamed for the limp wristed brexit we got, the only good thing is at least the uk is now in charge and not the EU and we only have our UK Politicians to blame or thank for decisions that are made in future.

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Only according to Russia on the ceasefire precondition. Ukrainians want the pre-2014 borders restored. Although Trump is a very real threat to realising that aspiration. 

I don't blame the Ukrainians for that at all, if someone annexed part of the UK, I'd want to fight until my country and it's people were fully restored to.

[12gauge82]

40 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Man made climate change denier... Correct

 

Humans are not causing climate change, neither is the CO2 we produce...

 

Every climate change model, every single one of them, is a simplified version of reality which does not replicate reality and therefore cannot replicate current or past climate, never mind the future.

 

The models do not even include all the energy inputs from the sun, which is the main driver of climate change and which we can do nothing about!

I don't know if that's correct or not. The point I was making is I've never seen Farage deny the science of climate change. The point I've seen him make, is why destroy our economy, stifle business and condemn the poorest in society to a life of poverty, for no meaningful change to world CO2 outputs, while we export Carbon emissions abroad, we can make the change gradually in a non economic destroying manner as technology improves.

1 hour ago, Shadowchaser said:

I've voted Tory for the past few elections simply to keep Labour out of power.  While the two parties might not be able to squeeze a cigarette paper between them, I think with the Tories we have the slightly lesser of two evils. 

I would like to see the two party system ripped up and would like to vote Reform actually, but I'm not sure it'll do anything. 

We're in for more rinse and repeat if Labour win. At the next election or the one after that, they'll be voted out. People have short memories. 

And more evidence of our broken electoral system.

[millrace]

34 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

 if someone annexed part of the UK, I'd want to fight until my country and it's people were fully restored to.

So the "Tory Brexit deal" which did this to northern ireland has clearly passed you by!!.....

 

[oowee]

32 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Funny you should say that, I blame Cameron, to a slightly lesser extent Johnson and a whole host of other remainer politicians for sabotaging brexit and delivering instead a very watered down brexit in name only.

If Farage had been allowed to lead negotiations as he wished at the time, I believe this country would be in an incredibly good position. Although we'll have to wait for Farage to get a shot at being PM to find out if I'm right or wrong. One thing's for sure, he can't be blamed for the limp wristed brexit we got, the only good thing is at least the uk is now in charge and not the EU and we only have our UK Politicians to blame or thank for decisions that are made in future.

I don't blame the Ukrainians for that at all, if someone annexed part of the UK, I'd want to fight until my country and it's people were fully restored to.

I think for Putin it would be a wet dream to see Farage as PM. As leader of the Brexit party he voted against EU controls on Russian propaganda.

Now if he were not leader of Reform he would be working on the Trump election. Trump, Fico, Orban le Penn and Farage are the ways in for Russia, peas from the same pod, prepared to sing from the Kremlin hym sheet. Only last week Medvedev spoke of Russias objective to destabilise the west and create mistrust through propaganda. 

Everyone who supported Brexit blames the negotiators or the EU (ie everything and anything else) for the desperately poor and crippling outcome. None seem to blame or accept their part in this act of self harm. 

It's a falasy to think our future rests in the hands of elected leaders. We are a tiny country that will be swept along and pushed around by those stronger than us. Including the EU, US and China.

[oowee]

19 minutes ago, millrace said:

 

👍

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, millrace said:

 

No it hasn't and is why I'm so ****** off by the brexit betrayal I talked of earlier.

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

I think for Putin it would be a wet dream to see Farage as PM. As leader of the Brexit party he voted against EU controls on Russian propaganda.

Now if he were not leader of Reform he would be working on the Trump election. Trump, Fico, Orban le Penn and Farage are the ways in for Russia, peas from the same pod, prepared to sing from the Kremlin hym sheet. Only last week Medvedev spoke of Russias objective to destabilise the west and create mistrust through propaganda. 

Everyone who supported Brexit blames the negotiators or the EU (ie everything and anything else) for the desperately poor and crippling outcome. None seem to blame or accept their part in this act of self harm. 

It's a falasy to think our future rests in the hands of elected leaders. We are a tiny country that will be swept along and pushed around by those stronger than us. Including the EU, US and China.

The fact he was against so called anti propaganda laws doesn't mean he wants to see Russian interference, quiet the opposite in fact, Farage is a staunch patriot who loves the UK, he'd be more outraged than anyone by foreign interference. What did you think his fight for Brexit was about?

I blame the UK political class for the deal we got, we should have walked away with the deal the EU were preparing to offer us, which wasn't being negotiated in good faith at all. I'm quite confident Farage feels the same, it's why he has decided to run for election, he doesn't believe Labour or the Tories can be trusted to run the country and certainly can't be trusted to run things after Brexit.

Edited June 22 by 12gauge82

[Raja Clavata]

3 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think your confusing being against the financially crippling policys that have made absolutely no difference to world climate issues and denying the scientific evidence of climate change. Farage doesn't deny the science l, he's against economic self harm for no benefit.

And this is just more evidence on why our political system is so broken, assuming your not a typical torie supporter (do correct me if I'm wrong), you'll be voting for a party further right of your choice, in an attempt to keep another party out of power.

It’s an ill wind that blows no fortune. Massive industry around sustainability. What financially crippling policies are you referring to?

I’m not sure what a typical Tory voter is but I’ve never voted anything other than Tory, not that I’ve voted at all since 2016.

I’ll move if my local seat is taken by Reform. And if reform ever form government I’ll most likely take a foreign work assignment whilst they are in power.

Let’s see what happens in constituencies where they do win in this election. I think things could get ugly for certain minorities in those locations. Hope I’m wrong.

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

It’s an ill wind that blows no fortune. Massive industry around sustainability. What financially crippling policies are you referring to?

I’m not sure what a typical Tory voter is but I’ve never voted anything other than Tory, not that I’ve voted at all since 2016.

I’ll move if my local seat is taken by Reform. And if reform ever form government I’ll most likely take a foreign work assignment whilst they are in power.

Let’s see what happens in constituencies where they do win in this election. I think things could get ugly for certain minorities in those locations. Hope I’m wrong.

The cost of energy in the uk is huge and has been artificially inflated by green agendas which don't even work.

Take the planned shutting of port talbot steel works, the steel will instead be made abroad and shipped back.

Smart meter roll out, that does absolutely nothing to save energy usage, but is being paid for directly via an increase in everyone's fuel bills.

I could go on with examples for hours but it would become war and peace. The point is idiotic policy is crippling the UK's economy for no benefit.

Appoliges I had assumed you voted Labour/Lib ect due to some of your opinions not appearing to be traditional Conservative views, but I guess that shows how far away the Tories are from being a traditional Conservative party, which is why reform are currently ahead of them in polling.

Why on earth would you move, what policy of there's could possibly affect you that much to take such a drastic action?

I very much hope you are wrong about things getting ugly for minoritys. I don't for one second believe Farage is racist in any way, if I did I wouldn't vote for him and I don't believe the average person would either, reform would quickly disappear into irrelevance like the BNP did.

I do accept there are likely racist individuals hiding within the organisation and the reason for that is they're newly formed, having been hastily put together due to the snap election and are the most right of centre political party, some extreme right wing racists are going to try to attempt to join as reform are currently successful. If/when that happens, I expect to see Farage take very swift and strong action in expelling them and it is no different from any other party, I'm sure extreme left and anti Jewish individuals will attempt to attach themselves to the Labour Party for the same reasons.

[Robden]

11 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Man made climate change denier... Correct

 

Humans are not causing climate change, neither is the CO2 we produce...

 

Every climate change model, every single one of them, is a simplified version of reality which does not replicate reality and therefore cannot replicate current or past climate, never mind the future.

 

The models do not even include all the energy inputs from the sun, which is the main driver of climate change and which we can do nothing about!

I think it's a cycle, the planet goes through every few hundred or so years. Humans are not the cause, but are certainly adding to it. What would the population be like without cancer, covid etc, and wars?  The more people there are, the more resources like houses, food etc needed. 

[Mungler]

10 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Massive industry around sustainability. What financially crippling policies are you referring to?

You didn’t just say that. Seriously? That’s brilliant.

One of my clients is an industry leading energy consultant. For years he has been saying that net zero is practically impossible, no one actually understands what it means or it entails and it’s financially and economically crippling to even attempt to get there, and all against a backdrop of it being utterly pointless in the UK against a global backdrop.

Let’s start with the easy one - do you want chapter and verse on how fundamentally economically crippling net zero would be? Do you agree that pursuing net zero will have an immediate negative adverse impact? Why are governments in Europe abandoning net zero targets?

Are you saying that the adverse economic impact of net zero is outweighed or sufficiently counteracted by all the new green industry measures (forcibly) coming over the horizon? 

Edited June 23 by Mungler

[Raja Clavata]

7 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

The cost of energy in the uk is huge and has been artificially inflated by green agendas which don't even work.

Take the planned shutting of port talbot steel works, the steel will instead be made abroad and shipped back.

Smart meter roll out, that does absolutely nothing to save energy usage, but is being paid for directly via an increase in everyone's fuel bills.

I could go on with examples for hours but it would become war and peace. The point is idiotic policy is crippling the UK's economy for no benefit.

Appoliges I had assumed you voted Labour/Lib ect due to some of your opinions not appearing to be traditional Conservative views, but I guess that shows how far away the Tories are from being a traditional Conservative party, which is why reform are currently ahead of them in polling.

Why on earth would you move, what policy of there's could possibly affect you that much to take such a drastic action?

I very much hope you are wrong about things getting ugly for minoritys. I don't for one second believe Farage is racist in any way, if I did I wouldn't vote for him and I don't believe the average person would either, reform would quickly disappear into irrelevance like the BNP did.

I do accept there are likely racist individuals hiding within the organisation and the reason for that is they're newly formed, having been hastily put together due to the snap election and are the most right of centre political party, some extreme right wing racists are going to try to attempt to join as reform are currently successful. If/when that happens, I expect to see Farage take very swift and strong action in expelling them and it is no different from any other party, I'm sure extreme left and anti Jewish individuals will attempt to attach themselves to the Labour Party for the same reasons.

I obviously do agree on the dire situation of energy costs but there are multiple variables contributing to it. Nonetheless the strain on both private and commercial consumers is shocking.

No apology needed on political positioning, I’m sure we agree that it’s all very much relative and increasingly subjective these days. I consider myself centrist which positions me right of my girlfriend and left of plenty of folks here on PW, it is what it is.

What I think is needed and what I originally hoped Change was going to enact was a bringing together of the majority of centrists into one party, turned out they were a bunch of muppets.

I’d like to see proportional representation and the various factions of Labour and Conservatives split so we could actually tell what each division stood for. I think this is an important point in so much that both of the major parties are so disjointed they are effectively numerous parties with an umbrella party and the various factions afraid to step out for fear of oblivion in a two party system.
 

As things stand, I see the appeal of Reform as standing out from the crowd, I’d just like to have seen it emerge from a position a bit more centred.

I sincerely hope I’m wrong about the minorities too.

Who knows, maybe Farage is a genius who has positioned on the right in order to stand out, attract disillusioned voters and will move towards the centre if he ascends. I would love to see my concerns about him proven to be unfounded.

On the topic of climate. I’ve worked in transportation my entire working life, until recently nearly everything powered by fossil fuels. Oil and coal have driven our industrial development but it’s time that we move on.

Things beyond our control are clearly driving climate change but even the risk of us accelerating it should be mitigated. That’s just plain common sense. 
 

Just like politics, the post truth populist approach to everything drives extremism on both ends of the spectrum of divide.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

RC, don't hold your breath.........................

 

The country "went to the dogs years ago," I cannot see a way to return it to a working set up without massive changes.

Which will never happen due to the present incumbents and their replacements not wanting to spoil their lovely little "gravy Train."

 

Without 45 million votes for Reform they will only take votes from either Conservatives, Liberal Democrats or Greens and allow Labour an absolutely MASSIVE majority to do whatever they like with.

Edited June 23 by TIGHTCHOKE

[Yellow Bear]

8 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I'm sure extreme left and anti Jewish individuals will attempt to attach themselves to the Labour Party for the same reasons.

They are already there and Smarmer is powerless to eject them - witness Abbot.

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

I’d like to see proportional representation

You do realise that would give Farage and Co a far bigger voice than you would be comfortable with? 

[Raja Clavata]

36 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

You do realise that would give Farage and Co a far bigger voice than you would be comfortable with? 

I think I’ve already said I can see benefit with Farage in opposition. My concern is that he and his party ascend to power, not an issue in the upcoming coming parliament but a concern for me next time perhaps.

[Rewulf]

31 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I think I’ve already said I can see benefit with Farage in opposition. My concern is that he and his party ascend to power, not an issue in the upcoming coming parliament but a concern for me next time perhaps.

Why would it be a concern?

They aren't an extreme party, and could never command a huge majority, the demographics of the UK would never allow it.

They are a counter weight to the left, what the tories should have been , but they decided to appeal to all persuasions,  and pleased none.

This is not how an opposition works, and the tories will become an also ran, albeit with more MPs than Reform this time, but once Labour mess up...

[old man]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

You do realise that would give Farage and Co a far bigger voice than you would be comfortable with? 

Maybe time to loose the fox into the henhouse?

Something drastic needs to unseat the current wretches?

[ditchman]

im voting for Reform.....as i want to bin this sort of thing

"one million quid has been given to a univercity to investigate the banning of Morris dancers ...as it it is tooo white"

these woke scum want to eradicate my heritage............and if Reform wasnt there i would vote BNP

[Gordon R]

Quote

Things beyond our control are clearly driving climate change but even the risk of us accelerating it should be mitigated. That’s just plain common sense. 

Why is it common sense for the UK to try to achieve net zero? It isn't possible, so why are we going down the "we can only try" road. Our pathetic idea of reducing gases is to export the problem to another country. Sadly the wind isn't up to speed and refuses to contain pollution to a particular country. Few seem to grasp that we live on a planet. 

It's embarrassingly obvious, but it doesn't stop people peddling this nonsense.

[armsid]

I think both parties are scared how much Farage is liked by the electorate (look how Trump won hearts in USA elections) as voters get fed up of the lies underhand dealings and disregard for this country by the poliyical elite. Time to let a patriot who loves the UK have a go. He cannot do worse than the out going or the incoming lot who care not for UK PLC.

[Gordon R]

armsid - totally agree.

[Yellow Bear]

3 hours ago, ditchman said:

one million quid has been given to a univercity to investigate the banning of Morris dancers ...as it it is tooo white"

Pure and simple racism