The long road back

[Rewulf]

16 minutes ago, oowee said:

At least net zero has an upside. 

Economic suicide has an upside ?

[udderlyoffroad]

30 minutes ago, oowee said:

That's a good point. Uncosted and the impacts being huge and all done without a referendum. The public can't be blamed for the choice either.

So you're in favour of a referndum on Net Zero?  I certainly am (my inner Swiss leanings again).

I suspect it would Brexit 2.0 though, viz. "You didn't know what you're voting for"  "We need a confirmatory referendum"  "Not everyone who voted against NZ is a racist, but every racist is..." ad nauseum.

32 minutes ago, oowee said:

At least net zero has an upside. 

A managed move away from burning fossil fuels has an upside.

Net Zero, in its various different forms, has no discernible upside.

But these issues are complex  - no more North Sea Oil or Fracturing Shale will do only one thing for emissions, namely increase them.  Sadly, we have a committed idealogue as a government minister for contradiction in terms, uh I mean "Net Zero & Energy Security".  He's a laws of thermodynamics denier.

[oowee]

9 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

So you're in favour of a referndum on Net Zero?  I certainly am (my inner Swiss leanings.

No. Like Brexit I would never let the public vote for stuff they cannot understand. 

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

No. Like Brexit I would never let the public vote for stuff they cannot understand. 

Oh dear !

[TIGHTCHOKE]

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

No. Like Brexit I would never let the public vote for stuff they cannot understand. 

Oh of course, a DICTATORSHIP.............................................

[amateur]

2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Oh of course, a DICTATORSHIP.............................................

No, no, no. That would imply that someone is in charge.

oowee is no doubt suggesting rule by civil serants, where no one can be held accountable.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

[clangerman]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

No. Like Brexit I would never let the public vote for stuff they cannot understand. 

I think your future lies in politics! 

[oowee]

15 minutes ago, amateur said:

No, no, no. That would imply that someone is in charge.

oowee is no doubt suggesting rule by civil serants, where no one can be held accountable.

They do that now under direction from politicos. Every system needs the fall guys 🤣

[TIGHTCHOKE]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

They do that now under direction from politicos. Every system needs the fall guys 🤣

 

[Yellow Bear]

7 minutes ago, oowee said:

They do that now under ignoring direction from politicos. Every system needs the fall guys 🤣

Sorry needed correcting

[oowee]

🤣🤣🤣

[Raja Clavata]

10 hours ago, Rewulf said:

You could apply that to the entire labour cabinet though 🤣

This is a discussion on party leader, not cabinet 😉

6 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

May a good PM?   It’s a point of view I suppose.  IMO, we still don’t know the cost of the damage May did to the economy – by enacting net zero into law.

Never mind her absolutely useless BRINO deal (subsequently rubber stamped by BoJo).  She even 'tolerated' Clegg et al running around undermining her team’s own negotiating position, talking to Barnier.

Who from the current lot would have done a better job?

[ditchman]

someone mentioned FRACKING...................pro fracking MP's go on about how ....if we are fracking our own gas it will mean much smaller bills for us.........

now correct me if im wrong.....i dont rekon it will change the price of gas as it will be priced according to the open market price...

i believe one or 2 of the Fracking owners just happen to be in the house of lords (they have big intersts in Quadrilla)....

i just cant see cheaper gas...that is a load of cobblers

Edited July 30, 2024 by ditchman

[shaun4860]

4 hours ago, amateur said:

No, no, no. That would imply that someone is in charge.

oowee is no doubt suggesting rule by civil serants, where no one can be held accountable.

🤣

[old man]

23 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Oh dear !

Oh dear, oh dear?

Democracy down the toilet?

[oowee]

Interesting piece of research suggests Tories starting to be seen as weird. 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/sep/02/voters-beginning-to-think-conservatives-are-weird-research-suggests

[Mungler]

On 29/07/2024 at 17:02, Westward said:

They were all very middle class. Friends of mine in the 60s were at a posh public school with Giles Wilson, I believe Blair went to public school and getting to be a barrister like Starmer costs a great deal of money, consequently almost all barristers hail from well heeled families.

Very, very few politicians have anything more than the vaguest awareness of life for working people. If you do well through your own efforts like one of my sons, the tax burden is already eye watering and Reeves will only make it worse. Why? Because the creed of envy that pervades Labour voters will demand it.

The trouble with capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings and the trouble with socialism is the equal sharing of the misery!

👍

Labour have never understood entrepreneurship or risk vs reward.

They think that someone who risked everything, worked every hour, never had a good night’s sleep should be made equal to someone who took a risk free 9-5 in the civil service with 8 week annual holiday and a gold plated pension. Labour love the state machine and they want it as big as possible and as many people as dependant on it as possible.

I don’t blame Labour - that’s one leopard that never changed its spots. I blame a decade of incompetent conservatives - what they could have done with that majority, the reforms they could have put in place (NHS, welfare, education, civil service), but no, we got fools infighting.

[Vince Green]

On 29/07/2024 at 11:07, Newbie to this said:

Then when/if she defects, there should.be a by-election, to see if her constituents still want her as a Reform MP. Same goes for anyone else deciding to change colours.

She was voted in as a Conservative.

The principle of the British electoral system is that you elected the person not the party. I think she would be mad to defect to Reform.

Reform is not a party, they are just a protest group of disillusioned individuals. They might be a party one day but that day is a long way off.

[oowee]

8 hours ago, Mungler said:

👍

Labour have never understood entrepreneurship or risk vs reward.

They think that someone who risked everything, worked every hour, never had a good night’s sleep should be made equal to someone who took a risk free 9-5 in the civil service with 8 week annual holiday and a gold plated pension. Labour love the state machine and they want it as big as possible and as many people as dependant on it as possible.

I don’t blame Labour - that’s one leopard that never changed its spots. I blame a decade of incompetent conservatives - what they could have done with that majority, the reforms they could have put in place (NHS, welfare, education, civil service), but no, we got fools infighting.

Today's labour looks more like the previous incarnation of the Tory party prior to its autocannibalism phase. 

[Rewulf]

44 minutes ago, oowee said:

Today's labour looks more like the previous incarnation of the Tory party prior to its autocannibalism phase. 

Its how they win elections, drift over the centre into the right, they did it in 97 under Blair.

The trouble is, its never long before they show who they really are, start pandering to the unions and the hard left to keep their real support base.
This time around they are really not waiting, that huge majority has emboldened them to the point where the unions are getting exactly what they want, the doors are opening up for immigration and the EU, the taxes they promised wouldnt happen are coming, and the authoritarian 'values' they hold so dear.
The hard left will get a look in very shortly, and give it a nice layer of austerity, blame it on the tories, and tell us they need at least 2 terms to make everything right again.
A couple of years and people will be begging for the tories back, warts and all 😄

[Mungler]

8 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Its how they win elections, drift over the centre into the right, they did it in 97 under Blair.

The trouble is, its never long before they show who they really are, start pandering to the unions and the hard left to keep their real support base.
This time around they are really not waiting, that huge majority has emboldened them to the point where the unions are getting exactly what they want, the doors are opening up for immigration and the EU, the taxes they promised wouldnt happen are coming, and the authoritarian 'values' they hold so dear.
The hard left will get a look in very shortly, and give it a nice layer of austerity, blame it on the tories, and tell us they need at least 2 terms to make everything right again.
A couple of years and people will be begging for the tories back, warts and all 😄

That’s it in a nutshell.

[oowee]

16 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Its how they win elections, drift over the centre into the right, they did it in 97 under Blair.

The trouble is, its never long before they show who they really are, start pandering to the unions and the hard left to keep their real support base.
This time around they are really not waiting, that huge majority has emboldened them to the point where the unions are getting exactly what they want, the doors are opening up for immigration and the EU, the taxes they promised wouldnt happen are coming, and the authoritarian 'values' they hold so dear.
The hard left will get a look in very shortly, and give it a nice layer of austerity, blame it on the tories, and tell us they need at least 2 terms to make everything right again.
A couple of years and people will be begging for the tories back, warts and all 😄

An interesting and different perspective. Looks to me that they are making good progress on much of the manifesto.

We have to hope they can pull somethinour out of the bag with the EU. It's not easy after all the garbage thrown over the fence in the last few years. 

Its good to see them in the driving seat as the party of law and order, whilst orchestrating the reins of fiscal responsibility. These are the the exact positions one might expect of a tory party of the past.

Unfortunately there is currently no tory party in the offing. With such a vast majority a government needs a working opposition to hold it to account. Currently the tories have no purpose and are being seen as stale and slightly weired. A position not dissimilar from that of the far right under the leadership of the orange man. Maybe with the right leader this can change but they need a reason to be. 

Until then I am sure we wish Kier well and his government every success. 

 

[Rewulf]

20 hours ago, oowee said:

Looks to me that they are making good progress on much of the manifesto.

Most of that manifesto is slowly going down the toilet, so thats some progress, and wait till next months 'painful' budget 

 

20 hours ago, oowee said:

We have to hope they can pull somethinour out of the bag with the EU.

They will pander to whatever the EU wants, thats what they do, you cant really say that Starmers cabinet are strong negotiators can you, although Im sure Raynor could strongly argue over the price of a kebab on her 'well lubricated' way home from the local hostelry.

 

20 hours ago, oowee said:

Its good to see them in the driving seat as the party of law and order

I cant.. Honestly, thats just... 

 

20 hours ago, oowee said:

Until then I am sure we wish Kier well and his government every success. 

Let me know when they have one.

 

20 hours ago, oowee said:

Currently the tories have no purpose and are being seen as stale and slightly weired.

A line straight out the Guardian.
I suppose that bastion of level headedness thinks that, it must be true 

[oowee]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Most of that manifesto is slowly going down the toilet, so thats some progress, and wait till next months 'painful' budget 

 

They will pander to whatever the EU wants, thats what they do, you cant really say that Starmers cabinet are strong negotiators can you, although Im sure Raynor could strongly argue over the price of a kebab on her 'well lubricated' way home from the local hostelry.

 

I cant.. Honestly, thats just... 

 

Let me know when they have one.

 

A line straight out the Guardian.
I suppose that bastion of level headedness thinks that, it must be true 

The leaks suggest some will like the budget but if you have to deal with bojo it's in the plan followed by trussononics then something has to give. It's the price of financial prudence that's been so lacking of late. 

As for negotiation I would say its too early to tell. We have become used to playground shouting and politics serious dialogue we have now is too much for some to appreciate.

It's so like what's happening the other side of the pond. The weired negative everything politics of the far right orange man contrasting with steady eady fun loving party of the centre right. 

😇