four-wheel-drive Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I will get slagged off for saying this but then that is nothing new but I think it is about time this was put to bed horrible things have and will always happen and there is nothing that can be done to stop it that is what we as people do once all of the people who was involved in it have died and that will not be to long now then the hole thing should be left to the history books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentalmac Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 It's a very hard subject to read or watch as its so horrific - the sheer inhuman brutality of the Nazi's and what they did - may they rot in hell for all eternity for what the did. An excerpt of text which is particularly hard to read but portrays something all to normalised in the camps. The History Place - Holocaust Timeline: Eyewitness Account of Einsatz Executions On October 5, 1942, by accident, Hermann Graebe, a German engineer and manager of a German construction firm in the Ukraine, and his foreman, came upon an Einsatz execution squad killing Jews from the small town of Dubno in the Ukraine. He gave the following eyewitness account: "My foreman and I went directly to the pits. Nobody bothered us. Now I heard rifle shots in quick succession from behind one of the earth mounds. The people who had got off the trucks - men, women and children of all ages - had to undress upon the order of an SS man who carried a riding or dog whip. They had to put down their clothes in fixed places, sorted according to shoes, top clothing and undergarments. I saw heaps of shoes of about 800 to 1000 pairs, great piles of under-linen and clothing. Without screaming or weeping these people undressed, stood around in family groups, kissed each other, said farewells, and waited for a sign from another SS man, who stood near the pit, also with a whip in his hand. During the fifteen minutes I stood near, I heard no complaint or plea for mercy. I watched a family of about eight persons, a man and a woman both of about fifty, with their children of about twenty to twenty-four, and two grown-up daughters about twenty-eight or twenty-nine. An old woman with snow white hair was holding a one year old child in her arms and singing to it and tickling it. The child was cooing with delight. The parents were looking on with tears in their eyes. The father was holding the hand of a boy about ten years old and speaking to him softly; the boy was fighting his tears. The father pointed to the sky, stroked his head and seemed to explain something to him. At that moment the SS man at the pit started shouting something to his comrade. The latter counted off about twenty persons and instructed them to go behind the earth mound. Among them was the family I have just mentioned. I well remember a girl, slim with black hair, who, as she passed me, pointed to herself and said, "twenty-three years old." I walked around the mound and found myself confronted by a tremendous grave. People were closely wedged together and lying on top of each other so that only their heads were visible. Nearly all had blood running over their shoulders from their heads. Some of the people shot were still moving. Some were lifting their arms and turning their heads to show that they were still alive. The pit was nearly two-thirds full. I estimated that it already contained about a thousand people. I looked for the man who did the shooting. He was an SS man, who sat at the edge of the narrow end of the pit, his feet dangling into the pit. He had a tommy-gun on his knees and was smoking a cigarette. The people, completely naked, went down some steps which were cut in the clay wall of the pit and clambered over the heads of the people lying there to the place to which the SS man directed them. They lay down in front of the dead or wounded people; some caressed those who were still alive and spoke to them in a low voice. Then I heard a series of shots. I looked into the pit and saw that the bodies were twitching or the heads lying already motionless on top of the bodies that lay beneath them. Blood was running from their necks. The next batch was approaching already. They went down into the pit, lined themselves up against the previous victims and were shot." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon controller Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Dad was at the 'relief' of Belson Berkenau. He never said a word about it, just that he was there - almost as though that was 'enough said'. Beyond comprehension and the worst of mankind and his unjustified prejudices. My father was at Belson just after liberation, he was a quiet ,strong man, a police officer and later coroners officer attending post mortems etc, he never spoke of what he saw but would never touch cold damp dishcloths or chamois leather. I think it had a great effect on him but he kept it to himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sako751sg Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Straying a wee bit,but try reading The Cruel Hunters for an idea of some unbelievable statistics and a great insight into how the SS and The Third Reich operated when the going got tough.The battalion was mostly made up of ex poachers who were released only so they could serve to "redeem" themselves.Google Oskar Dirlewanger and the Sonderkommando. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentalmac Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 wasn't just the allies that had to experience things like that at the liberation of the death camps, my grandfather aged 15 spent 3 days (along with his friends) lining up and identifying 600 dead bodies after the allies carpet bombed his hometown. I'm not excusing the death camps but there are two sides to a war. Rotterdam bombing, 1940, German airforce bombed Rotterdam killing nearly 1000 and over 800,000 lost their homes... Before the allies had carpet bombed... Infact the German condor legion were one of the first to try carpet bombing during the Spanish civil war.... And in London many British civilians were identifying their dead after swathes of carpet bombing. If you really want a good read - then look up Oradur sur glane. That will make your stomach turn, now tell me an atrocity that the allies did on that scale with that malice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLondon Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I'm sorry but I don't think you can compare the two, War by its nature is destructive, and whilst blanket bombing killed far to many civilians, what the death camps did was just plain abhorrent, Bombs kill indiscriminately, what the Nazis did was pure evil, All the Jews belongings stripped off them, heads shaved (men women and children) so the hair can be sold , identical twins experimented upon by nazi doctors. Gas chambers working 24/7 just because Hitler blamed the Jewish people for past deeds. No, I'm sorry but you simply can't compare the two, One was an act of war with unnecessary casualties, The other was pure evil set upon a group of people by a madman. Did you watch the documentary? We should never be allowed to forget what happened :( +1 I too have been to auschwitz/birkenau and can only echo what's been said on here already. A fact that shocked me on my visit was that it took 1.5kg of zyklon B to gas 1,000 people and in 1944 the nazis used in the region of 20 tonnes of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clakk Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 went twice to Belsen and once to Dachau during my time in the army and the germans themselves made their own soldiers visit and see what dear old grandad got upto.as it should be how can you NOT teach about this ,it happened and shows how verminous humans can be when under the excuse of ideology the masses pick on the minority for profit.these poor souls were used as slave labour ,robbed of homes ,bank accounts everything they owned and ultimately their lives .all because a scheming politician decided it would give his people a focus for their anger over losing the first world war they also started.humans suck but their children should know the sins of the fathers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentalmac Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 And according to some IDIOTS we should just leave it to history books rather than remind others and ourselves that it actually happened . KW That's sad that people think they can just erase history, those who died deserve us to know so webcam remember and honour them. Incidentally, not all Germans were 'evil', some were indoctrinated and educated in a way that turned them to believing what they were told... Some were pretty evil, but some were just ordinary soldiers, my late great uncle who was in the 8th army (the forgotten army) he had a German pen friend who he struck up an unlikely friendship with during being captured... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I will get slagged off for saying this but then that is nothing new but I think it is about time this was put to bed horrible things have and will always happen and there is nothing that can be done to stop it that is what we as people do once all of the people who was involved in it have died and that will not be to long now then the hole thing should be left to the history books. I disagree. It should be remembered to serve as a reminder of what can happen when a people project their fear and hatred onto another and make them scapegoats for the ills of society. As I have said before on here, Nazi Germany wasnt some alien society that came to earth on a comet. The brutes and sadists were there all along, and so were those willing to turn a blind eye or turn a fast buck. Given the right circumstances they come out of the woodwork time and again - The Holocaust, Nanking, The Balkans, Rwanda, Iraq and Syria today. How many times do we hear "bomb the lot of them" or "nuke them" or "kill them all and let God sort them out" on here? Or to put it another way, "Exterminate the entirety of x or y group, including the innocent, to be sure to rid us of the guilty". Those who truly hold such attitudes, who link all in a particular group to the sins of a few on the basis of a shared trait unrelated to the sins, are making the exact same mistake the people of Germany did in relation to the camps, even if they never took a life themselves. Once again, the Einsatzgruppen volunteers would come out of the woodwork here too given a permissive environment, and plenty would quietly ignore what they were doing. The rhetoric of hatred is alive and well today, and people fall for it, parrot it or just pretend not to hear it out of fear and ignorance just as they always did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I will get slagged off for saying this but then that is nothing new but I think it is about time this was put to bed horrible things have and will always happen and there is nothing that can be done to stop it that is what we as people do once all of the people who was involved in it have died and that will not be to long now then the hole thing should be left to the history books. I always wondered, but now I know for 100% certain you are a moron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 What happened in Nazi Germany is still (just) in living memory and shows us just what a democratic and ordered society can fall to and in a short space of time. To say forget it, don't keep it in mind, move on it's one for the books is frightening. "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I disagree. It should be remembered to serve as a reminder of what can happen when a people project their fear and hatred onto another and make them scapegoats for the ills of society. As I have said before on here, Nazi Germany wasnt some alien society that came to earth on a comet. The brutes and sadists were there all along, and so were those willing to turn a blind eye or turn a fast buck. Given the right circumstances they come out of the woodwork time and again - The Holocaust, Nanking, The Balkans, Rwanda, Iraq and Syria today. How many times do we hear "bomb the lot of them" or "nuke them" or "kill them all and let God sort them out" on here? Or to put it another way, "Exterminate the entirety of x or y group, including the innocent, to be sure to rid us of the guilty". Those who truly hold such attitudes, who link all in a particular group to the sins of a few on the basis of a shared trait unrelated to the sins, are making the exact same mistake the people of Germany did in relation to the camps, even if they never took a life themselves. Once again, the Einsatzgruppen volunteers would come out of the woodwork here too given a permissive environment, and plenty would quietly ignore what they were doing. The rhetoric of hatred is alive and well today, and people fall for it, parrot it or just pretend not to hear it out of fear and ignorance just as they always did. Zapp, that is alarmingly accurate and many should take the time to understand exactly what you have written. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-wheel-drive Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I always wondered, but now I know for 100% certain you are a moron. You are welcome to your point of view I probably think the same of you but where dose that get us the point that I was trying to make is people say that remembering bad things will stop more bad things from happening the fact is it does not. Throughout history there have been evil people prepared to do terrible stuff did pol pot think oh those Germans did some bad things I will learn from them and not do it myself we get the same thing with the death penalty it has no affect at all bad people will do bad things hang as many of them as you please but nothing that anyone does or says will ever stop people from killing one another you only have to look at the middle east to see that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double10 Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I'm sorry but I don't think you can compare the two, War by its nature is destructive, and whilst blanket bombing killed far to many civilians, what the death camps did was just plain abhorrent, Bombs kill indiscriminately, what the Nazis did was pure evil, All the Jews belongings stripped off them, heads shaved (men women and children) so the hair can be sold , identical twins experimented upon by nazi doctors. Gas chambers working 24/7 just because Hitler blamed the Jewish people for past deeds. No, I'm sorry but you simply can't compare the two, One was an act of war with unnecessary casualties, The other was pure evil set upon a group of people by a madman. Did you watch the documentary? We should never be allowed to forget what happened :( I wasn't comparing bombing with death camps, but the effects. I'm jewish and german and both things affected both sides of my family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I wasn't comparing bombing with death camps, but the effects. I'm jewish and german and both things affected both sides of my family. Then you should understand you would not be jewish and german today if it was not for acts such as the allied carpet bombing . I know you are only young but you are also naive if you think there is any similarity's between that and what happened in the extermination camps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) We are no better than any other race-the British Government knew about the Concentration Camps well before the end of the war but chose to do nothing about it What do you think they could or should have done. ? Then you should understand you would not be jewish and german today if it was not for acts such as the allied carpet bombing . The war could have been won without the indiscriminate targeting of German cities and civilians. You can debate why it was done and the morality but it didn't change the outcome of the war. People that think it was OK would then have to support the indiscriminate bombing of British cities and civilians by the Germans. Edited January 25, 2015 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Theres some very moving stuff on here, mentalmac the image of your post will stay with me for a very long time, my thoughts turn to other places in the world were atrocities are happening at this moment.................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double10 Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 The war could have been won without the indiscriminate targeting of German cities and civilians. You can debate why it was done and the morality but it didn't change the outcome of the war. People that think it was OK would then have to support the indiscriminate bombing of British cities and civilians by the Germans. Beat me to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 What do you think they could or should have done. ? The war could have been won without the indiscriminate targeting of German cities and civilians. You can debate why it was done and the morality but it didn't change the outcome of the war. People that think it was OK would then have to support the indiscriminate bombing of British cities and civilians by the Germans. Yes it perhaps could have been , but it would have also dragged on for years longer and ultimately cost even more lives . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I will get slagged off for saying this but then that is nothing new but I think it is about time this was put to bed horrible things have and will always happen and there is nothing that can be done to stop it that is what we as people do once all of the people who was involved in it have died and that will not be to long now then the hole thing should be left to the history books. please take the time to listen to this woman,and then you will see why we should not confine this to history books. KW http://news.sky.com/story/1414381/no-kiss-he-just-vanished-auschwitz-survivor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead-Eyed Duck Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 What do you think they could or should have done. ? The war could have been won without the indiscriminate targeting of German cities and civilians. You can debate why it was done and the morality but it didn't change the outcome of the war. People that think it was OK would then have to support the indiscriminate bombing of British cities and civilians by the Germans. Absolute cobblers - read your military history. If precision bombing had been available then we would have done it. At the time it was felt that bombing industrial areas was the main opportunity to weaken the German war machine, and by and large it did. Unfortunately, just as today, industrial centres were located near to urban areas simply because of the logistics of getting people to work. If you examine the reduction in German military output as a result of bombing then it was successful. War is, and never has been clinical. The ends do not justify the means, but when you were faced with the might of German military output then something had to be done. Mistakes were made, but this compares to nothing when you set out to eradicate whole populations by the use of death camps and mass exterminations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I will get slagged off for saying this but then that is nothing new but I think it is about time this was put to bed horrible things have and will always happen and there is nothing that can be done to stop it that is what we as people do once all of the people who was involved in it have died and that will not be to long now then the hole thing should be left to the history books. Yes, you probably will get slagged off for this, and rightly so. I grew up learning about the atrocities which occurred during WWII, and once watched a film; a movie, not a documentary, about some Russian Jews who were captured by the Germans. The film was based on actual events, and I was in my late teens if I recall; a bit of a lad and thought of myself as 'hard', ( I wasn't, but that's how I felt) and the only scene which I can still remember to this day was of thousands of women and children, having been separated from their husbands, all standing naked, holding hands and waiting in line to enter huge warehouse sized buildings thinking they were shower blocks, when they were in fact gas chambers. Thousands and thousands, all naked, in a long line; the women reassuring their frightened children there was nothing to be afraid of. I knew it was only a movie, but even though I kept telling myself this, It didn't seem to work, as in the back of my mind I knew such events had actually taken place. I went upstairs to my bedroom and bawled my eyes out for ages, and didn't come back downstairs again until I was sure no one could tell I'd been crying. I think the holocaust is one of the few events in history which should be educationally compulsory; alongside punctuation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I think the holocaust is one of the few events in history which should be educationally compulsory; alongside punctuation. I'll second that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) At the time it was felt that bombing industrial areas was the main opportunity to weaken the German war machine, and by and large it did. Unfortunately, just as today, industrial centres were located near to urban areas simply because of the logistics of getting people to work. Sorry but as you put it that's cobblers. They deliberately targeted city and civilians , even going as far as investigating what towns and cities would burn the best. Hitting civilians was deliberate not collateral damage of going after military targets. I suggest you do some research. In February 1942, the British abandoned their "precision bombing" strategy. For the rest of the war, the British concentrated on the systematic widespread destruction of German cities by RAF nighttime air raids, a strategy called "area bombing." One reason the British took this fateful step was to "dehouse" the German people, which hopefully would shatter their morale and will to continue the war. Mistakes were made, but this compares to nothing when you set out to eradicate whole populations by the use of death camps and mass exterminations. I never said it was. Edited January 25, 2015 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sako751sg Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) Forgot to say the outstanding film Come And See is loosely based on Dirlewangers exploits. Edited January 25, 2015 by sako751sg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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