chipper Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 A long standing friend attended a shoot (no names will be mentioned, but it was somewhere on the Shrops/Worcs border) on Saturday. On the first drive, he tells me, 'the birds were so low, the whole team (8) only fired off 7 shots..'.....My reaction was, 'Wow, the guns must have been pretty good ...' What would you chaps have done ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttfjlc Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 Not fired at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clakk Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 not fired beaters are low to the ground too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Am I missing something? Eight people fired seven shots and downed twenty five birds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rimfire4969 Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I guess you are saying that there are far to many birds on the game cart for the shots taken. I would of had a word with the keeper or shoot captain straight away, and from then on made sure everyone counted their shots and hit birds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I guess you are saying that there are far to many birds on the game cart for the shots taken. I would of had a word with the keeper or shoot captain straight away, and from then on made sure everyone counted their shots and hit birds. Ah, with you now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I think the art of being a gamekeeper has been long lost and the majority are now egotistical scoundrels and cheats that do not understand a thing about birds but love money! Or is that just my general findings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDog Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I too was at a loss after reading the first post. All is now clear. There is no way I would have accepted that attempt at cheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldfarmer Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 A long standing friend attended a shoot (no names will be mentioned, but it was somewhere on the Shrops/Worcs border) on Saturday. On the first drive, he tells me, 'the birds were so low, the whole team (8) only fired off 7 shots..'.....My reaction was, 'Wow, the guns must have been pretty good ...' What would you chaps have done ? Am I missing something? Eight people fired seven shots and downed twenty five birds? Am I missing something as well - where did the 25 birds come from - can't see a previous mention of the number of birds shot only cartridges fired? I have also heard of shoots where the bag does not seem to truly reflect what the guns claim to have shot. While pricked and pegged birds can be added to the bag which the guns do not realise they shot it is a dreadful practice and the word soon gets around to avoid these shoots - so they are not going to benefit long term. In the case of a 'poor' drive it is always best to leave the birds. Any commercial shoot owner should put in an extra drive to compensate and make up the bag. If it is a syndicate day then they will be there next time and hopefully fly better and provide better sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I think the art of being a gamekeeper has been long lost and the majority are now egotistical scoundrels and cheats that do not understand a thing about birds but love money! Or is that just my general findings? If it was for the love of money then they have got into the wrong profession. Sorry UD but I think you'll find that the majority don't fit your description and I think it is a little insulting saying so. Maybe the keepers you come across are as you describe which will give you that opinion. There seems to be a fair bit of keeper bashing going on lately and whilst I agree that there are some bad/poor ones (as in all walks of life) it is most certainly not the norm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougall Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I would have left if I read this right........it is fraud...and not a particularly clever one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I think perhaps it is the pressure of 'delivering' results which can be an overriding factor in such cases. Commercial shoots live and die by their income, and the pressure 'keepers can be under to deliver must at times be frightening. I'm not condoning the practise, but to worry about ones living/income is an awful situation to be in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennett Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I'm only a part time keeper, for a group of 4 friends and invited guests, but even so the pressure (entirely self made!) to provide a good day is huge. To put it into perspective, one very nice 21yr old underkeeper I know, who behind the scenes does more than his fair share, is on £7000 a year. Even so, trying to pull a stunt like that is fairly stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dob Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Not the first time it's happened , I know of a shoot that that had birds in the game cart with sunken eyes and even road kill ,only 2/3 were actually shot that day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
browning123 Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I've been on shoots were this has happened - which was pointed out to the keeper who eventually reduced the total price on the day. As already said word gets around and the shoot ends up with bought days not being taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scolopax Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Another aspect to be wary of is the pickers up accounting for unshot birds, if they are positioned well back in the birds natural landing zone sharp dogs can snaffle a landing bird before it can take avoiding action. The problem is particularly acute with redleg partridges, they can be very tired after even one flight and are easily picked up by the dogs, I have seen this happen with wild partridge aswell so it is not just reared birds that are vulnerable. I would go as far as saying 90 % of the time a redleg that cannot fly is not pricked but just knackered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 It does sound pretty stupid and shocking. Esp with so few shots fired. Really brings keepering into disrepute if is true as written I would definately be having words after the 1st drive and keeping a very keen eye on things after that. I have heard of it being done but never actually seen it done (the few days i shoot are usually on keepers i knows shoots and often shooting with a load of keepers/locals,so always well looked after) A shoot i've beat and picked up on folk have alleged it happens, but i honestly don't know how, as only birds picked that day are on the cart, on most big shoots u will be picking some previously injuerd birds from other shoots but u also will not pick every bird that has been pricked so should even up over the day. Granted i don't know wot the keeper tells the guns wa shot thou, but the bag is there for all too see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fielddweller Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Another aspect to be wary of is the pickers up accounting for unshot birds, if they are positioned well back in the birds natural landing zone sharp dogs can snaffle a landing bird before it can take avoiding action. The problem is particularly acute with redleg partridges, they can be very tired after even one flight and are easily picked up by the dogs, I have seen this happen with wild partridge aswell so it is not just reared birds that are vulnerable. I would go as far as saying 90 % of the time a redleg that cannot fly is not pricked but just knackered.Very good point and one which I spend a lot of time educating our pickers upThe old adage of fly or die is good for pheasant but definitely not partridge. Atb Fielddweller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I think the art of being a gamekeeper has been long lost and the majority are now egotistical scoundrels and cheats that do not understand a thing about birds but love money! Or is that just my general findings? Perhaps this is the downside of some commercial shoots, after all you do NOT want to upset your Keeper mid season with possibly still some 20+ shoot days to go ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipper Posted December 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I guess you are saying that there are far to many birds on the game cart for the shots taken. I would of had a word with the keeper or shoot captain straight away, and from then on made sure everyone counted their shots and hit birds. Yup...spot on, Excuse my poor grammer. 'On the first drive a total of 7 shots were fired (by the team of 8, some didnt get the chance to pull the trigger) due to the birds flying way too low, however, there were 25 birds on the cart'. Well, at the end of the day, a couple of guns refused to pay the rate, and offered 1/2. Which in turn led to an interesting debate. Then according to my friend. 'The atmosphere at wasnt pleasant'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) Many years ago I went to a shoot in the same area (we had been double booked on another shoot and were offered this day instead). On the 1st drive we were pegged with our backs to a wood. I had heard voices in the wood behind me and presumed that it was the pickers up getting into position. The drive started and birds began to sail over, most were being left by my party of guns as being too low, only to be shot by whoever was in the wood. Transpired that the shoot was run by some Cypriots who had invited some of their own guns along to 'back gun' us. Er, we did not get to the second drive ! P.S. We had paid a deposit (1/2) of the money due, it took a lot of hassle but eventually we managed to get a full refund. We never used the same Agent again. Edited December 21, 2015 by Westley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDog Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Yup...spot on, Excuse my poor grammer. 'On the first drive a total of 7 shots were fired (by the team of 8, some didnt get the chance to pull the trigger) due to the birds flying way too low, however, there were 25 birds on the cart'. Well, at the end of the day, a couple of guns refused to pay the rate, and offered 1/2. Which in turn led to an interesting debate. Then according to my friend. 'The atmosphere at wasnt pleasant'. This matter should have been sorted after the first drive not the end of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben0850 Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Very good point and one which I spend a lot of time educating our pickers up The old adage of fly or die is good for pheasant but definitely not partridge. Atb Fielddweller Agreed, thankfully on our local estate where I pick up most of the pickers up are pretty good and don't let any dogs run during a drive (unless deciding a wounded bird, usually a cock bird needs picking immediately). Far too many birds are pegged on many shoots in my humble opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 This matter should have been sorted after the first drive not the end of the day. I agree with JD here, after such a poor 1srt drive the keeper/shoot agent has no room for excuses. By end of day assuming the drives got better it would be fairly hard to prove exactly wot u had shot. Experienced guns will have a fair idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zipdog Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 This matter should have been sorted after the first drive not the end of the day. I too agree with Jdog. From the description the guns were aware after the first drive that there was a scam taking place, why continue shooting and try to justify paying half the agreeeded amount at the end of the day? The guns should have told the game cart driver to not move and then called over keeper to discuss the situation. If the keeper or this friends had started to become aggressive the police should of been called. Shooting the day and then paying half the amount is similar to eating a meal in a restaurant and then complaining it wasn't nice when you had finished it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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