EU membership, or not, won't sort out illegal immigration

[KFC]

http://news.sky.com/video/1647383/britains-flawed-deportation-system

[sportsbob]

Failed Asylum seekers are currently subject to European Human rights and most of us would like to think leaving Europe would mean European Human rights go also, after all we can have our own English Human rights where WE have the right to say who stays or goes just like Australia or America or just about anywhere other than Europe.

Edited February 24, 2016 by sportsbob

[besty57]

http://news.sky.com/video/1647383/britains-flawed-deportation-system

No surprise there then.we have all seen the TV programmes where houses are raided and because they can't find any passports nothing is done.crazy country we live in

[Scully]

Anything illegal will not be sorted out without the will to do so.

[Gordon R]

It won't sort it out on its own, but it's a step in the right direction.

[Vince Green]

The European Convention on Human Rights is nothing to do with the EU, they are not connected in any way. We could ditch the human rights at any time without leaving the EU or vice versa. All we need to do is grow a pair and put our foot down.

[old man]

The European Convention on Human Rights is nothing to do with the EU, they are not connected in any way. We could ditch the human rights at any time without leaving the EU or vice versa. All we need to do is grow a pair and put our foot down.

Not remotely likely IMHO.

[Lloyd90]

The European Convention on Human Rights is nothing to do with the EU, they are not connected in any way. We could ditch the human rights at any time without leaving the EU or vice versa. All we need to do is grow a pair and put our foot down.

This is also my understanding!

[subsonicnat]

I have always gone against the idea of identity cards in this country..

Perhaps the time has come, just to sort out who's who..

There again the do some very good counterfit passports,so many no it wouldn't work.

[KFC]

I think the main point of this report is that, in many cases, the deportation orders have been already been obtained but they haven't been acted upon so illegals will still come here knowing that it's unlikely that they'll be deported and that's regardless of EU.

Time the government started getting a grip.

[Royal22lr]

Compulsory ID cards for ALL citizens. If you are unable to prove who you are within set period of time (3 months) you lose all access to NHS, Housing, Education Welfare Benefits Etc etc. If your not a G B citizen or a authorised visitors your out on your ear.

No appeal No HRA rubbish, if you have nothing to fear, you have nothing to worry about. It's very simple, similar to applying for driving licence passports. Just needs a Governtment with a pair of ***** and backbone. No ID no come in. No more illegals!

 

Royal22lr

[kent]

No but we will be able to control our borders from health tourists from other eu member states and the gangs that travel through the eu shoplifting and other organised criminal activities.

 

We have always had immigration legal and illegal, we have also had a historic record in offering assilum to those in dier need in fact we need it but now we have zero control rather than some control. If the whole of Albania want to come here they can. Will be the same when Turkey come in.

When you look at France, Spain, Germany etc no great issue we are more equal economies and cultures

[Vince Green]

I have never understood why we have not had proper ID cards these many years. Its not just about immigration, any ID card linked to your fingerprints, DNA and iris scan would make identity fraud, multiple identities even ebay scams virtually impossible. Police clear up rates would soar etc.

So many things in their favour, can't think of a single reason why not.

[johnnythefox70]

What about 'i cant find it?'

[guest1957]

I have never understood why we have not had proper ID cards these many years. Its not just about immigration, any ID card linked to your fingerprints, DNA and iris scan would make identity fraud, multiple identities even ebay scams virtually impossible. Police clear up rates would soar etc.

So many things in their favour, can't think of a single reason why not.

Rousseau v J S Mill

[margun]

If we leave the EU immigration numbers won't change in my opinion. Farmers, factories, etc. will still want cheap unskilled labour which isn't forthcoming from our own. Whether that's because they value themselves at more than they're worth or that there is a wider systemic, economy related problem is up for debate. Therefore as long as a demand exists then they will still come, 'nicking our jobs'.

 

A farmer friend illustrated it well, he has a small amount of blackcurrants and other fruits, plus salad crops and the usual cereal. He has employed eastern block workers (unskilled) primarily for the last few years. In that time he's also employed a small amount of Brits (unskilled). Hats off them for applying but the good ones are an order of magnitude rarer than their EU counterparts. In his experience the locals are more likely to moan, demand pay rises without justification, show up late, call in sick, and handle fruit roughly to the point of damaging it.

 

If it were my business, I would take the same view. But for reasons of sovereignty I will probably vote out.

[Vince Green]

Rousseau v J S Mill

No I don't buy that idea at all "The rights of the individual are greater than the rights of the many" etc Rousseau was a "contrarian" a person who thought the opposite of everybody else. We have one today very much in the limelight, Jeremy Corbyn. Its all old news now, it never was clever just a form of intellectual anarchy.

 

In my book its exactly the opposite. For society to function we all have to accept and live by rules, if those rules are a constraint thats the price we have to pay to have a society. We can't have a society any other way.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Vince Green

[McSpredder]

I have never understood why we have not had proper ID cards these many years. Its not just about immigration, any ID card linked to your fingerprints, DNA and iris scan would make identity fraud, multiple identities even ebay scams virtually impossible. Police clear up rates would soar etc.

So many things in their favour, can't think of a single reason why not.

What happens if somebody hacks into the central database, and swaps your data with his? Having done so, he can withdraw all your savings and travel around the world on your ID. You become liable for all his debts, and unable to travel anywhere. And if his DNA or fingerprints are linked to a crime scene, the boys in blue will come knocking on your door.

 

Can anybody name a government computer system that has never been hacked? Or one where it would be totally impossible for a dishonest computer maintenance contractor, or a member of staff who is dishonest/disaffected/threatened/blackmailed, to access the stored data?

[Vince Green]

What happens if somebody hacks into the central database, and swaps your data with his? Having done so, he can withdraw all your savings and travel around the world on your ID. You become liable for all his debts, and unable to travel anywhere. And if his DNA or fingerprints are linked to a crime scene, the boys in blue will come knocking on your door.

 

Can anybody name a government computer system that has never been hacked? Or one where it would be totally impossible for a dishonest computer maintenance contractor, or a member of staff who is dishonest/disaffected/threatened/blackmailed, to access the stored data?

Rome wasn't built in a day, but we have to make a start. We cannot go forward into the future with a population of 60+ million who have no definable identity that is instantly checkable in any sort of reliable way and people wandering in and out having operations and claiming benefits at will.

 

People talk of building fences but fences take many forms. Control only can come from having the upper hand

[pg123]

I think voting out will be a brave step into a new era. Don't get me wrong I will not rejoice if we do leave the EU. I personally think things will get a little worse before they get better.

 

We can all see things aren't going well while we are tied down by EU red tape and regulation. we can bury our heads in sand and accept our fate or we can make a decision to try and shape the future for us now and perhaps more importantly our children.

[margun]

I think voting out will be a brave step into a new era. Don't get me wrong I will not rejoice if we do leave the EU. I personally think things will get a little worse before they get better.

 

We can all see things aren't going well while we are tied down by EU red tape and regulation. we can bury our heads in sand and accept our fate or we can make a decision to try and shape the future for us now and perhaps more importantly our children.

You summed up my thoughts on this issue very well.

 

On the decision making point-PC or not-personally I think that this country has a better record than Europe, historically speaking, on its own affairs and therefore is better qualified to take long term decisions on stability. Europe has been prone to putting their shiny black boots on a little bit much for my liking.

 

I travel a lot across Europe for work - 3 weeks of most months for the last 3 years.

 

Speaking from experience, if you look at the situation across Europe right now over immigration, the far right is on the rise again in a big way. That's what the EU was set up to stop. What we see reported in our media doesn't actually reflect events across the EU and vice versa.

 

The question is who's pulling the strings and for what reason?

[Vince Green]

Apart from Britain and Germany every country in the EU is skint, probably to the extent that you could fairly accurately describe must of them as bankrupt

 

Question 1: How is that a 'club' worth remaining in?

 

Question 2: Why were most of them allowed to join in the first place Were we consulted?

 

Question 3: Why wouldn't a significant number of people in those countries want to come here for a better life/wages than they can get in their own country?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

The figures were massaged to allow Greece in!

[paulnix]

If we leave the EU immigration numbers won't change in my opinion. Farmers, factories, etc. will still want cheap unskilled labour which isn't forthcoming from our own. Whether that's because they value themselves at more than they're worth or that there is a wider systemic, economy related problem is up for debate. Therefore as long as a demand exists then they will still come, 'nicking our jobs'.

 

A farmer friend illustrated it well, he has a small amount of blackcurrants and other fruits, plus salad crops and the usual cereal. He has employed eastern block workers (unskilled) primarily for the last few years. In that time he's also employed a small amount of Brits (unskilled). Hats off them for applying but the good ones are an order of magnitude rarer than their EU counterparts. In his experience the locals are more likely to moan, demand pay rises without justification, show up late, call in sick, and handle fruit roughly to the point of damaging it.

 

If it were my business, I would take the same view. But for reasons of sovereignty I will probably vote out.

Can't disagree with this, the stay camp are clinging to "facts" like we need to stay in to keep our migrant labour, when in fact we'd be pretty much as we are now but probably a bit better off, we would still get as many as we need.

Was a poll in 2014 where just over half of farmers said to stay in the EU, quarter undecided and quarter out, would imagine a few more have moved over to the OUT camp as things are even worse, DEFRA are not coming up with any idea's about what would replace the CAP which of course is in the IN camps interests, even though farmers are a small group I do think there a lot of people genuinely worried about our food industry and I think more farmers would say out now than did in 2014 and chance it that we are allowed to make a living before we all give up or go bust.

[Dr D]

This is also my understanding!

The European Convention on Human Rights is nothing to do with the EU, they are not connected in any way. We could ditch the human rights at any time without leaving the EU or vice versa. All we need to do is grow a pair and put our foot down.

 

 

There is an ongoing attempt to get the EU to ratfiy the European convention on human rights to link the EU strongly with the council of Europe. It hasn't happened yet but I think it will eventually.

 

At present the only human rights treaty that will be affected through eu withdarawl will be the charter of fundamental rights.

 

This treaty is enforceable both in our own courts and the European court of justice. It has proven to be useful tool for British citizens, particularly becasue it allows us to challenge decisions that affect a whole load of social and economic issues in a way that the echr does not.

 

Also our courts can give you direct compensation if your rights are violated under the charter. Their powers under both the echr and the human right act are in many ways not so strong.

 

So, in terms of our own individual interests, the EU human rights framework arguably is a good thing. Of course, people may be willing to give this up to support a withdrawal. We might have less protection as individuals following a withdrawal so it is something I guess worth thinking about before we put a x in whatever box.