AOLQ - is it still a thing?

[Thunderbird]

I was told this in writing by an FEO last year when I did a few variations and asked about an open condition with AOLQ:

 

"Other lawful quarry was removed from certificates a number of years ago although some still have them on, pending renewal"

 

Has anyone here had AOLQ put on their cert recently, or is what he said true, because I'm not sure I buy it?

 

 

 

[CaptainBeaky]

Eh? There's a thread running on here at that moment concerning a member in North Wales who has just asked for, and been granted AOLQ for his 204.

Sounds like an FEO making up the rules.

[steve_b_wales]

Here's the thread:

 

https://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/355084-north-wales-police-centre-fire-conditions/

[bluesj]

I seem to remember a thread on here a few months ago about the same thing, I think it turned out that it was a Gloucestershire thing.

I've got AOLQ on mine always have had from the start on a 22lr up to and including 7mm weatherby and 308 added last year

[Thunderbird]

Thanks Steve, missed that thread.

 

Another case of regional variations, annoying though.

[7daysinaweek]

i have AOLQ on my mine done under Merseyside about 20 moths ago.

 

atb

7diaw

[FOXHUNTER1]

Just got my renewal last week with AOLQ added ,,,

[Thunderbird]

Yep, just Glos then. They are good at making up their own rules.

[Zetter]

Did a variation with TVP last year for a .17 Hornet and got Foxes and AOLQ on it

[welshwarrior]

Variation back yesterday still aolq on all rifles

[racing snake]

Just thought I'd add, my FEO did apologise and said he thought he'd added AOLQ when he opened my conditions for the .223 previously, so whether that means some forces won't allow it on closed conditions I'm not sure (wasn't sure if he was alluding to the opening of conditions and the addition of AOLQ are generally done together in NWP) Touch wood though my new cert with AOLQ should be with me tomorrow!

[Paul223]

I have AOLQ on .243 and .20HH, granted many years ago, renewed last year.

Nephew was granted AOLQ last year after a wrangle with the feo

 

North Wales Police

[oowee]

From BASC Home Office Guidance 2013

Further to chapter 10 - Chapter 13 (‘good reason’) says; 13.9 …… “it is the responsibility of the shooter and the shooting community to know what calibre is suitable for which quarry, and when certain quarry is lawful (including the need to obtain or rely upon a licence from the relevant licensing authority to permit the shooting of protected species). Once initial “good reason” has been established for the possession of a firearm, there is no requirement for “good reason” to be demonstrated for additional quarry species or amendments providing the firearms are not underpowered for the species (see also paragraph 13.17). A cartridge should be capable of achieving a humane kill, and it is the responsibility of the shooter to ensure ♣ https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/firearms-law-guidance-to-the-police-2012 Page 2 of 2 that any excess energy will be absorbed by the backstop. The “any other lawful quarry” condition (which also covers protected species that the certificate holder is licensed to shoot) should be applied. If an applicant is suitable to hold a firearm certificate and is deemed safe to do so, there is no requirement to restrict the quarry they shoot by the use of conditions.”

 

If its legal then shoot it?

[Footu]

Well I just had a renewal today, was told I could have a 17 hmr but not to use it on fox, a 223 with fox and aolq, and regranted my 243 fox, deer and aolq. All open tickets.

I'm pretty happy with that and off to the shops soon.

Well I just had a renewal today, was told I could have a 17 hmr but not to use it on fox, a 223 with fox and aolq, and regranted my 243 fox, deer and aolq. All open tickets.

I'm pretty happy with that and off to the shops soon.

[oowee]

I was told that If I had a reason to shoot fox I could not ask for a hmr for the purpose. If I had a HMR it would be legal for fox as long as I used it humanely, something you have to try to achieve with any calibre or quarry.

[Redgum]

It seems as if Gloucestershire are the only ones that will not give AOLQ, All my calibres have the species listed next to them. Originally I had hmr for fox ( their decision), a year later it was removed due to the fact that they didn't think it was a suitable fox calibre ( and rightly so ), but it listed vermin and the debate goes on. I have heard many reasons for their stance on not allowing AOLQ the latest being the fact that the county has a large boar population and some control was needed by the police as there is no legal calibre for boar. I can understand as AOLQ would mean you could use any calibre from .22lr upward to shoot boar though Government guidance contradicts this fact, but this is guidance not law. You could say that common sense by the FAC holder should prevail but alas many boar have been injured by unsuitable calibres. Not having AOLQ on my license makes no difference to me just more hassle for the firearms dept.

[Scully]

Mine is AOLQ; issued within the last couple of months. Cumbria.

[ShootingEgg]

I was told that If I had a reason to shoot fox I could not ask for a hmr for the purpose. If I had a HMR it would be legal for fox as long as I used it humanely, something you have to try to achieve with any calibre or quarry.

my HMR is swt for vermin and fox fall into that category on Ho guidelines. And im same force area as you. And have used it on fox humanely.

 

Redgum, I thought that possibly 270 is recommended for boar. Might be wrong though.

Edited April 11, 2017 by ShootingEgg

[Redgum]

my HMR is swt for vermin and fox fall into that category on Ho guidelines. And im same force area as you. And have used it on fox humanely.

 

Redgum, I thought that possibly 270 is recommended for boar. Might be wrong though.

 

I don't want to get off topic with 17hmrs and fox but vermin and fox are another of the great police mysteries. My hmr ( when I had one ) was for vermin and fox, they changed it to vermin, when I asked them why they said they didn't consider it a fox calibre, that's not so bad cos then you just get a .22 centrefire but obviously they see vermin and fox as different. The vermin/fox thing has been done many times on here and I'm not sure if you are correct on the Home office guidelines categorising fox as vermin, if you look up vermin in the Oxford dictionary fox do seem to be just that but then it states so do destructive people. As for Boar, Glos told me they prefer 30 calibre but you are quite right and if you asked for 270 for boar they would condition it I'm sure, if you have AOLQ it would not matter anyway. The force needs some sort of set ruling across the land but best not hold your breath. All that said, apart from early days when they almost demanded DSC 1 for deer ( which I did with 'no regrets now' as this opened some great opportunities with deer/pigs), Glos have never refused me a calibre or species which include vermin,fox,deer, feral goats, boar and dangerous or injured livestock,.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Redgum

[oowee]

The home office advice is to include AOLQ. If your ticket does not have this (mine) it does not mean you can't shoot other legal quarry. If your rifle is conditioned for fox you can still shoot crows. The 2016 guidance is very clear.

HMR is not normally conditioned for fox but it is still legal to shoot them with one.

[Redgum]

The home office advice is to include AOLQ. If your ticket does not have this (mine) it does not mean you can't shoot other legal quarry. If your rifle is conditioned for fox you can still shoot crows. The 2016 guidance is very clear.

HMR is not normally conditioned for fox but it is still legal to shoot them with one.

 

Shooting Small Quarry Species, including Game and Pest

Species (Vermin)

13.19 The term “game” covers certain birds and animals that may be shot for food and sport.

These include pheasant, partridge, grouse, ptarmigan and ground game (rabbits and

hares). The term “vermin” is not defined in law, but it may include species that cause

damage to crops, game, livestock or property such as fox, rabbit, mink, stoat, weasel,

brown rat, and grey squirrel; as well as some birds, such as wood pigeon and corvids such

as rook and crow. Whilst species including wood pigeon and corvids are regarded as pests

 

Well that certainly clears the fox/vermin issue up

[oowee]

Following it through. There is no legal calibre for bore. There is a recommended minimum as the there is with fox but nothing legally defined as with deer. It would presumably be legal to shoot bore with any rifle, the only requirement being to expect a humane kill. I have seen bore dropped on the spot with .22rf.

[Redgum]

 

Shooting Small Quarry Species, including Game and Pest

Species (Vermin)

13.19 The term “game” covers certain birds and animals that may be shot for food and sport.

These include pheasant, partridge, grouse, ptarmigan and ground game (rabbits and

hares). The term “vermin” is not defined in law, but it may include species that cause

damage to crops, game, livestock or property such as fox, rabbit, mink, stoat, weasel,

brown rat, and grey squirrel; as well as some birds, such as wood pigeon and corvids such

as rook and crow. Whilst species including wood pigeon and corvids are regarded as pests

 

Well that certainly clears the fox/vermin issue up

 

......... that is until you read the table on page 124, no your still right, it definitely states hmr as being ok.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Redgum

[oowee]

The way I read it

There is a difference between asking for a calibre for a reason and what is legal. The table refers to the guideline calibre's for particular target species. It does not say that lesser calibres cannot be used only that they would not normally be sanctioned for that quarry. They are all legal as there is nothing in law to say otherwise. I guess the risk is if you have a wounded animal you are more open to a suggestion of cruelty if you use less than the recommended calibre. 13.25 sets out;

 

22 Rimfires are generally considered as having insufficient muzzle energy to be used against foxes in most circumstances. However, these could be suitable for use at short range by experienced persons, and may be permitted in certain situations such as around farm buildings or paddocks. It is for the operator to ensure that the quarry species are shot at the appropriate range with the appropriate ammunition to achieve a humane kill.

 

Suggesting that if you had a situation of foxes around buildings you might be issued a .22rf for fox as a special situation. Not that I think I would want to use a .22rf anywhere near a building.

[Hendrix's rifle]

The home office advice is to include AOLQ. If your ticket does not have this (mine) it does not mean you can't shoot other legal quarry. If your rifle is conditioned for fox you can still shoot crows. The 2016 guidance is very clear.

HMR is not normally conditioned for fox but it is still legal to shoot them with one.

So my 223 is only conditioned for fox on a closed ticket, your saying I can shoot crows or deer where legal? (cwd and mutjac in england/Wales and roe in scotland) if that's the case, where does it say? I've always been told to go by what's on your ticket, my says fox on one and vermin on the other so that's all I've done. I'd love to shoot crows with the 223 because on one per you can't get close enough with the hmr