Brexit - Merged Threads

[Granett]

48 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

 

 

Wow. Just wow. In a forum where people latched onto "taken out of context" in the mistaken belief it assisted their point, now this. The false equivalence is strong. 

[JRDS]

2 hours ago, TriBsa said:

I despair of our current government. Where is the planning? Yesterday David Davis revealed that there are no post Brexit impact assessments. Well today it seems Phillip Hammond revealed why. There has been no cabinet discussion on what the Brexit end state will look like. So they are going into negotiations with the EU with no plan and no direction. To cap it all, Hammond today publicly stated to the Treasury Select Committee that we will pay the so called divorce bill whether we get a trade deal or not. I wouldn't trust the present cabinet to organise the proverbial **** up in a brewery.

May must go.

 

I have two trains of thought on this :

1) They are truly staggeringly inept and not fit to run a bath.

2) They haven't done any of the things they should (and don't forget they allegedly delayed triggering A50 for 9 months because of all the preperations they had to do) because they never had any intention of honouring the Referendum result.

I suspect it has to be option 2 however after TM was caught red handed on Monday trying to sell the vote down the river and betray the country that may well all blow up in her face.

As for Hammond saying we will pay the Bill whatever he needs lynching, the Lords and our legal system have already proved there is no Legal basis for a divorce bill it is simply EU extortion.

May, Hammond and Davies need to go now irrespective whether option 1 or 2 is the truth. 

Edited December 6, 2017 by JRDS

[Newbie to this]

51 minutes ago, Granett said:

Wow. Just wow. In a forum where people latched onto "taken out of context" in the mistaken belief it assisted their point, now this. The false equivalence is strong. 

I was just putting up memes I found on the internet, like other people.

Here's another I've already posted

I'll find some more

[TIGHTCHOKE]

On 05/12/2017 at 19:42, Cannon said:

Why? I'm happy living in Ireland as a European citizen

Ireland or Northern Ireland?

[Granett]

38 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

I was just putting up memes I found on the internet, like other people.

Here's another I've already posted

I'll find some more

Lol. I'm amazed anyone is defending David Davis and his amazing impact assessments. How come? You a fan of his work? 

[ordnance]

26 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Ireland or Northern Ireland?

Some people don't like calling it Northern Ireland they would rather call it Ireland or the north of Ireland. Its a bit like someone denying Scotland's existence so they would say they are living on the Island of England or the north of England, i suppose if it keeps them happy. Just like people burring their heads in the sand denying reality and hoping if they do brexit will go away.

Edited December 6, 2017 by ordnance

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Point taken, thank you for the explanation.

[anser2]

11 hours ago, Rewulf said:

What that all Brits are arrogant ?
So you are arrogant ?

You dislike the EU? Really , could have fooled me..
What are you talking about ? Brexit hasnt even happened yet, and if living standards are falling, its more to do with the pounds value than anything else.
And, if you want to blame the pounds value on Brexit, it had peaked and had to fall at some point, ably helped by people with narrow minds like you and other remainers causing low confidence in our nation.
So Sir, if you dont want to see your retirement go down the pan, I would strongly recommend you get on board and support YOUR country, rather than people like Junkers superstate wet dream.
Or ship out to somewhere more inviting to your state of mind.

Many , many times i have stated I do not like the EU on this forum so why does it surprise you? perhaps because you do not read  anything that does not conform to your point of view. It shows how little you grasp the situation when you cannot connect the connection between the drop in value in the £ and its effects on our  living standards in the UK. The £ has fallen against the $ and even more against the Euro. As much of our raw materal are bought in $ and so much of our imports come from the EU even the run up to Brexit  will effect almost every area of life in the UK. A situation that will be much worst if and when we leave the EU. HGistory has shown how poor we as a nation has been when it tries to stand alone as a trading nation. We crashed and burned before we joined the EU and all the indicators are that we will again. Even the Tory govenment  has not attempted to see what the effect oif Brexit will be on the Uk, or have they looked and do not like the answer so not told us. What true Brits should be doing is fighting to make opur country strone from inside the EU not running away like naughty schoolchildren. Its the leavers who want to quit , ok then as a  quitter  find another country to live in and leave the UK to people who care about its future.

[anser2]

4 hours ago, Granett said:

The Brexit Bulldog's doing nothing to dispel those accusations from his fellow arch-Brexiteer that he's "thick as mince" and "as lazy as a toad". 

Anyone who thinks it's unpatriotic for remainers not to have jumped onboard Brexit must have loads to say about one of the main Brexiteers having gone about his role with such indolence. 

Its almost impossible that the UK govenment has not done an impact study on the effect of Brexit on the UK. I used to work in a govenment department and you do not even make a cup of tea with an impact study. Its more likely they have done one , but dare not show the public what they found.

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

7 minutes ago, anser2 said:

Many , many times i have stated I do not like the EU on this forum so why does it surprise you? perhaps because you do not read  anything that does not conform to your point of view. It shows how little you grasp the situation when you cannot connect the connection between the drop in value in the £ and its effects on our  living standards in the UK. The £ has fallen against the $ and even more against the Euro. As much of our raw materal are bought in $ and so much of our imports come from the EU even the run up to Brexit  will effect almost every area of life in the UK. A situation that will be much worst if and when we leave the EU. HGistory has shown how poor we as a nation has been when it tries to stand alone as a trading nation. We crashed and burned before we joined the EU and all the indicators are that we will again. Even the Tory govenment  has not attempted to see what the effect oif Brexit will be on the Uk, or have they looked and do not like the answer so not told us. What true Brits should be doing is fighting to make opur country strone from inside the EU not running away like naughty schoolchildren. Its the leavers who want to quit , ok then as a  quitter  find another country to live in and leave the UK to people who care about its future.

We wish to leave the EU not this once wonderful country of ours. Hopefully once out of the badly run white elephant we can return to running our own affairs.

[anser2]

5 hours ago, Walker570 said:

You talk us down oowee, there are much much larger nations which don't even come up to our laces in ability, but over the last 40yrs or more we have been so negative about ourselves, the pathetic liberal approach of no one must lose, Blair and his, everyone must have a uni education etc etc.  About time we and our politicians got some balls and promoted our future in the world.   The UK has always been linked globally and done very well thank you. The attachment to the leeches in the EU has done nothing but drawn us down. Fortunately we did not join the Euro, which has destroyed Greece, Italy for starters.   I believe we are just the first to jump from the sinking ship.

 

By the way. my living standards have not altered in the last 30yrs, but there again I do not waste my hard earned cash on unnecessary items.

Some of you need to go back to the late 40s early 50s to grasp living standards.

Well you are well insulated against the effects of rising prices then. Almost everything we need to live on has risen in price since Brexit vote.

 

 

I to want a wonderful country , but turn the clock back to the UK is pre EU days and we will all be the loser. The world has changed  , and if the UK does not change with it as the EU has and is doing them we will all be left behind begging from titbits from the USA and China. No country can prosper anymore without being a member of a group.

 

 

[neutron619]

29 minutes ago, anser2 said:

History has shown how poor we as a nation has been when it tries to stand alone as a trading nation. We crashed and burned before we joined the EU and all the indicators are that we will again.

You have obviously forgotten:

• Emulating then outdoing the Dutch mercantilists of the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries.
• Invading, colonizing, being defeated by and then trading with the Americas from 16th-19th centuries and since.
• Unforgivably, the collosal wealth generated by the slave trade (I'm not defending it in any way, but we did the economics rather well).
• The British East India Company and all of the other similar "companies" set up to trade amongst the colonies during the Empire along with all of the "unincorporated" trade between Britain and just about everywhere else (e.g. Silk Road, the Opium Wars, right through to the Boxer rebellion and so on etc.).
• The Corn Laws, mentioned above which, though having bad effects on many, established and retained our trade dominance in the 18th/19th centuries.
• The huge effect of our industrializing first and the trade associated with the importation of raw materials (i.e. raw wool and cotton) and the export of the products of the mills.
• The now sadly diminished merchant navy and fishing fleets who supplied almost everybody with something / provided a large proportion of the continent's fish stock until the EU (and modernity) decimated them both.
• The enormous international trade established in the City Of London over the last three centuries of financial products and their related material wealth (e.g. raw materials - copper, silver, gold) and the non-physical trade that we do nowadays.

In fact, the 1970's were a particularly unusual, odd time in our history where we had suffered the 1973 oil crisis, the economic incompetence of both "colours" of government whilst competing with a resurgent West Germany which had overcome the initial deprivations of war damage to produce a powerful economy via the Adenauer reforms. Things were bad, but looked much worse in contrast to the wealth being generated on the continent at the time. If the '75 referendum had happened 3-5 years later, we'd probably never have joined - and of course, De Gaulle wouldn't have allowed us in 5 years earlier...

Contrary to your assertion, our periods of greatest success have tended to coincide with our outlook being global and trade-focused and it is only since we joined the EU that that has been - temporarily, I hope - curtailed.

Lastly - ironically enough, the crashing and burning (and IMF, etc.) in 1976 was largely due to an inappropriately over-valued currency if my recollection is right. It's precisely what, if anything, will end up "doing" for Germany when the Euro comes crashing down around everyone's ears, though I've no doubt the Greeks, Italians, Spanish, Irish, etc. will be forced to pay again...

[TriBsa]

Another excellent post Neutron.

But I fear for the mindset of the majority of our current politicians who have no vision or dynamism. We have become overburdened with political correctness and cannot see further than the nanny state and subservience to Brussles. Hopefully this will change and we will see people of vision step forward when our destiny becomes our own with Brexit.

Edited December 6, 2017 by TriBsa

[oowee]

2 hours ago, neutron619 said:

You have obviously forgotten:

• Emulating then outdoing the Dutch mercantilists of the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries.
• Invading, colonizing, being defeated by and then trading with the Americas from 16th-19th centuries and since.
• Unforgivably, the collosal wealth generated by the slave trade (I'm not defending it in any way, but we did the economics rather well).
• The British East India Company and all of the other similar "companies" set up to trade amongst the colonies during the Empire along with all of the "unincorporated" trade between Britain and just about everywhere else (e.g. Silk Road, the Opium Wars, right through to the Boxer rebellion and so on etc.).
• The Corn Laws, mentioned above which, though having bad effects on many, established and retained our trade dominance in the 18th/19th centuries.
• The huge effect of our industrializing first and the trade associated with the importation of raw materials (i.e. raw wool and cotton) and the export of the products of the mills.
• The now sadly diminished merchant navy and fishing fleets who supplied almost everybody with something / provided a large proportion of the continent's fish stock until the EU (and modernity) decimated them both.
• The enormous international trade established in the City Of London over the last three centuries of financial products and their related material wealth (e.g. raw materials - copper, silver, gold) and the non-physical trade that we do nowadays.

In fact, the 1970's were a particularly unusual, odd time in our history where we had suffered the 1973 oil crisis, the economic incompetence of both "colours" of government whilst competing with a resurgent West Germany which had overcome the initial deprivations of war damage to produce a powerful economy via the Adenauer reforms. Things were bad, but looked much worse in contrast to the wealth being generated on the continent at the time. If the '75 referendum had happened 3-5 years later, we'd probably never have joined - and of course, De Gaulle wouldn't have allowed us in 5 years earlier...

Contrary to your assertion, our periods of greatest success have tended to coincide with our outlook being global and trade-focused and it is only since we joined the EU that that has been - temporarily, I hope - curtailed.

Lastly - ironically enough, the crashing and burning (and IMF, etc.) in 1976 was largely due to an inappropriately over-valued currency if my recollection is right. It's precisely what, if anything, will end up "doing" for Germany when the Euro comes crashing down around everyone's ears, though I've no doubt the Greeks, Italians, Spanish, Irish, etc. will be forced to pay again...

Our historic success came on the back of the exploitation or subjugation of others. In the past empires ruled until defeated or as a result of a lack of resources.

Now they live off the fat of the past and protect their wealth by creating trading blocks with protective practices. We can of course compete with anyone but to do so and maintain our standard of living we would have to have, high product quality (High academic standards most likely) or high productivity ( efficiency and mechanisation). Unfortunately to date we have not done so well in either of these areas. Conversely, market restrictions through the EU have worked to shield the UK from open competition. Remove these barriers and we can still be a great trading nation but we would have to address education and productivity otherwise we compete on price with the accompanying pressure on wages.

Edited December 7, 2017 by oowee

[Granett]

6 hours ago, oowee said:

Our historic success came on the back of the exploitation or subjugation of others. In the past empires ruled until defeated or as a result of a lack of resources.

Now they live off the fat of the past and protect their wealth by creating trading blocks with protective practices. We can of course compete with anyone but to do so and maintain our standard of living we would have to have, high product quality (High academic standards most likely) or high productivity ( efficiency and mechanisation). Unfortunately to date we have not done so well in either of these areas. Conversely, market restrictions through the EU have worked to shield the UK from open competition. Remove these barriers and we can still be a great trading nation but we would have to address education and productivity otherwise we compete on price with the accompanying pressure on wages.

What a traitorous application of logic and an unpatriotic refusal to believe hard enough in fantasy. 

[Nial]

11 hours ago, anser2 said:

Its almost impossible that the UK govenment has not done an impact study on the effect of Brexit on the UK. I used to work in a govenment department and you do not even make a cup of tea with an impact study. Its more likely they have done one , but dare not show the public what they found.

Or refuse to reveal their negotiating position?

I was thinking yesterday that Davis might be prepared to do this for the good of the country.

?

[neutron619]

7 hours ago, oowee said:

Our historic success came on the back of the exploitation or subjugation of others. In the past empires ruled until defeated or as a result of a lack of resources.

Now they live off the fat of the past and protect their wealth by creating trading blocks with protective practices. We can of course compete with anyone but to do so and maintain our standard of living we would have to have, high product quality (High academic standards most likely) or high productivity ( efficiency and mechanisation). Unfortunately to date we have not done so well in either of these areas. Conversely, market restrictions through the EU have worked to shield the UK from open competition. Remove these barriers and we can still be a great trading nation but we would have to address education and productivity otherwise we compete on price with the accompanying pressure on wages.

I actually agree with a lot of what you've said, but perhaps not the tone of some of it, or the implication.

We did indeed exploit and subjugate others during our "Imperial" period. In fact, perhaps ironically, that happened to a much greater degree in the 19th century than with earlier trade successes (e.g. outdoing the Dutch mercantilists at their own game) where political desire drove unfortunate behaviours in the many which - when it was just individuals running handfuls of ships for profit 200 years earlier - didn't really occur. They didn't need an empire for a comfortable life - just uninterrupted trade. Of course, we shouldn't be surprised that the pressures of large-scale, organized working driven by politics led to abuse.

I don't know if you meant to imply it or not, but I detected an undercurrent of "and that was unacceptable" in your first paragraph. Of course abuses occurred, but recent western empires - even the German ones - haven't been wholly bad. The balance has fallen in different places dependent on the particular case, but whereas the Third Reich was - in one sense - a throwback to the ancient Egyptian / Sumerian empires ("kill everyone or enslave them, and steal their land and stuff"), many more recent empires have had a benign streak too.

The British Empire subjugated, but brought education, the rule of law, sanitation and a semblence of freedom to many societies that had never experienced them. Interestingly, note the locations where we failed to subjugate: Pakistan and Afghanistan remain in outlook and philosophy, somewhere between the 7th and 12th centuries, whereas India (subjugated, granted independence) is now a thriving, modern (mostly democratic) country and economy.

Or, to use a more modern example, the current American "empire" of colonies (e.g. Puerto Rico), vassal states (e.g. Haiti) and dependents (NATO members, most of Europe) is generally credited (correctly and much to the EU's disgust, no doubt) with keeping the peace in two thirds of the globe for the last 70 years. Yes, there have been a few pressure points, but generally we don't feel oppressed by the Americans (though I believe some people may feel rather opressed by the current president).

Remember too, that people will put up with a lot if they think it benefits them - which explains some remainers' attachment to the EU in spite of the obvious and overwhelming evidence of abuse of individual freedoms.

Take Nicolas Maduro in Venezuela: he keeps getting "elected" (though it is a dictatorship), even if thousands of people suspected of taking drugs disappear every month. Or Aung Aan Suu Kyi in Burma: a rather large number of muslims are being forcibly exiled or starved to death by the machinery of the state, but she's as popular as ever. In losing relatives, friends, rights to congregate / associate or speak out, everyone in those countries is affected - subjugated to the state - but they'll tolerate it because their lives seem to be improved by it. The same was / is particularly true of the more benign recent empires (Napoleonic France, Imperial Britain, Modern American) where even if the subjugated are opposed to their rulers in principle, they are accepted or even treated with affection in practice. (Perhaps that's why we keep electing our own politicians!?)

I agree with you that we and they have been protectionist and, via our membership of the EU, continue to be so. We are, generally in the West, lucky to experience the living standards that we do - but we have also had the good sense to put in place the structures, laws and institutions which allow them to occur. In supporting the EU however, we are not opposing or preventing the abuses of old empires, but repeating them. Protectionism damages everyone in the end, except perhaps those lucky enough to be in the right place to profit from it (perhaps the overseers of the scheme, in their ivory towers in Brussels?)

The example that resonates with me is the grain tariffs. Africa is not - no matter how much some third world development charities and environmental campaigners might like to pretend - a basket case full of dictators who eat babies and where everybody starves before the age of 5 or dies of ebola. Yes, there are problems, but to take Ethiopia - which my wife knows reasonably well as an example - it's lush, green and amazingly rich in life. Often, it produces a surplus of grain and many other agricultural goods. Famines do sometimes still occur, but this is partly caused by underdeveloped infrastructure and distribution networks which means that the food can't get to where it's needed.

What do they do with that surplus? Well currently, they tend to feed it to the animals. Sensible, perhaps, but when you look at it another way, you ask yourself - what if they could sell the grain to buy machinery to improve their yeilds to produce more grain and feed the animals? Ethiopians (Africans) know about capitalism too and they aren't just waiting for the next handout - they want to improve their living standards just like the rest of us. So they go to Europe, with a shortage of grain and farming land and offer to sell us some in return for machinery and what does Europe say? "There'll be a 40% surcharge on the grain to protect our uncompetitive French farmers and we can't sell you any machines because it violates export regulations."

So it goes elsewhere and someone else gets to enjoy cheap bread, or stays in Ethiopia and feeds the family cow, literally eating any possible profit, or investment in their own wellbeing which could have been made, if the market had been undistorted. Why? The surcharge makes their grain uncompetetive and they can't sell it. Being refused advanced machinery prevents them from getting better yeilds and so improving their living standards through their own hard work. They may as well wait for another handout from Geldof and his groupies.

So yes - Britain has probably benefited from these "protections", but they aren't morally justifiable in my book. If I believe in anything, I believe in people being able to support themselves and have the chance at self-improvement and better living standards - if that's what they want - and being left along to live their lives, in peace, without interference from others or the state unless it's invited. Essentially, I'm a classical liberal, though no-one in politics today seems to understand or remember what that is - I'm certainly not a "liberal" by the modern or the pejorative definitions.

The implication I talked about at the top is the one that says "we can only survive outside if we do X, Y and Z, but we can't so we have to stay in". I don't believe that. We do have to do the things you described to make a success of Brexit, but I'm an optimist (apparently - it's news to me!) and I think we can do them. I believe that putting people in the position where they have to do something to make things better or suffer more badly usually results in them making things better. I have a (very slightly) chequered past myself and I can say without a doubt that the worst thing my parents ever did for me was to try to protect me from the consequences of my actions. As soon as they stopped doing that, my life got better because I had to solve my problems myself. The same is true on a national level, I believe.

The British have grown fat on the past and we need a good shake up, frankly. There are too many people here who think that it's someone else's job to provide what they need, free of charge. I don't want to get into a discussion about what the state should and shouldn't provide (my own answer is not "nothing" but probably a bit less than it does now, or at least, the same with different priorities) but our place at the Brussels "teat" has made us lazy. We haven't felt the need to compete, healthily, with our close neighbours and friends, so we haven't. On one level - fine. If we don't want to work any harder, we won't and we'll live with it whilst they get better off and we don't. But on the other hand, we do need a bit of motivational therapy I think, because we've also become unprepared to compete with (or stand up to) those who are not our friends or who do not treat us favourably, to the detriment of more than just ourselves.

We can "do" high academic standards and high productivity. We do still have institutions and a society which allow for them, though they are under attack from "harmonization" and regulations which do not help us make the best choices for ourselves. Brexit gives us the chance to escape the people of dangerous character that I described above and to justify our (still, in spite of recent failings) high place in the world. We are a small country and not the richest or the most productive, but people still flock here (tourists and immigrants) and want to know about "England" because that word represents something to them and exists in their consciousness as more than just a place on a map. It's a place they view as better than their own and that's almost unique to us. English is the language that everybody speaks.

When people ask the oppressed overseas "where would you feel free?" or "where could you have a better life?", the answer is more often than not "England". Sometimes "America"; rarely "France; usually "England". I know it's really "Britain", but in spite of us all falling apart over Brexit, we are still seen as the ones "getting it right", no matter what the doomsayers tell us. In fact, the falling apart over it but not resorting to civil war about it shows how strong we still are as a society and how well we disagree! Lesser nations would have started a coup or a bloodbath by now.

In spite of some deliberate efforts to change it, our national character hasn't much changed: we still value fairness, tolerance, decency, representative democracy and the rule of law as ever we did (even though we forget that we do sometimes) and people still admire us for that. Some of the folk in Ethiopia my wife has met treat "seeing England" as a life goal - I just feel that, at the moment, they might be a bit disappointed if they did. Brexit could - if it's done wholeheartedly - be our chance to change that.

[Rewulf]

What a load of old Brexiteer nonsense !

You are obviously a colonial fascist xenophobe !

Joking, another excellent post Neutron 

[TriBsa]

28 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

What a load of old Brexiteer nonsense !

You are obviously a colonial fascist xenophobe !

Joking, another excellent post Neutron 

+1

[12gauge82]

+1 Yes another very well reasoned response 

Edited December 7, 2017 by 12gauge82

[Gordon R]

neutron619 - in a thread riddled with garbage - some of it mine - your posts shine out. Very balanced opinions - well done.

[TriBsa]

Meanwhile in the Fatherland:

Quote

BERLIN — Martin Schulz, the head of Germany’s Social Democrats, wants to push for ever-closer European integration and turn the EU into a ‘United States of Europe’ by 2025.

“I want there to be a constitutional treaty to create a federal Europe,” Schulz said Thursday during a speech at a party convention in Berlin, as he urged his party to clear the way for talks with Angela Merkel’s conservatives which could lead to a new German government and put an end to an unprecedented coalition deadlock.

The drafting process of such a constitutional treaty, Schulz said, should involve citizens across the Continent. Once drafted, it would “be presented to the member states, and those who are against it will simply leave the EU,” he said, adding that Poland was already systematically undermining European values and Hungary was increasingly isolating itself.

https://www.politico.eu/article/spds-martin-schulz-wants-united-states-of-europe-by-2025/

Edited December 7, 2017 by TriBsa

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Quicker we walk away from this the better!

[JohnfromUK]

5 hours ago, neutron619 said:

 

The British have grown fat on the past and we need a good shake up, frankly. There are too many people here who think that it's someone else's job to provide what they need, free of charge.

This is a key point and I 100% agree - and in my opinion this is one of the reasons many of the younger generation tend towards 'remain'.  They have grown up with a 'nanny state' where they (well some anyway) can live on benefits - and the various European Courts seem to uphold the rights of the idle and feckless. 

I was pleased to see our new Defence Secretary giving clear views on the fact that we don't want jihadis back from ISIS.  More clear thinking like this and upholding the UK's interests (which are the same as NOT Europe's) is essential for Brexit success.  Present Cabinet are largely too soft, too wet, and give in too easily to Europe.  We need a leadership that wants a strong, prosperous and successful BRITAIN, not a weak country having it's hand held by Europe who take £40 billion in fees to do so.  If European industry want to sell cars, washing machines, whatever here, they will find a way to make their leaders do so ......... they cannot afford to loose our trade.

Edited December 7, 2017 by JohnfromUK

[oowee]

Neutron a  good response to my rather short post. I largely agree with your text. I guess where we differ is I would go further to try to change the structure and nature of the EU model. To my mind the idea of European co-operation and integration around trade, defence, environmental standards, citizens rights (and more) is the right approach but as you say we need to have the flexibility to make more of our own decisions as to what is best for the UK and in return best for our partners. Having an overarching structure perhaps provides a framework to curb government excess and hopefully short term thinking. The UK can be more competitive free as you say from the teat of the EU, what concerns me is our short term political structure that that will not allow long term strategic thinking and policy.

Unfortunately the EU executive is lacking a coherent constitution or 'board' direction which has allowed the model to grow in an unregulated way taking on a life of its own. This will need to change at some point particularly with regards the Euro currency that will demand wealth redistribution. The federal Europe model is one way but I can't see the former Eastern European countries signing up to this approach.

In short co-operation is the way forward but the EU model will need to change drastically to achieve it. The UK can't do it on its own and will need the support of other member nations. The task of change more difficult from the outside perhaps or maybe it sets a marker for others to champion change from within.