Another bad press story

[ShootingEgg]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-41820270

 

I dont agree with bop being shot, trapped or poisened, but this story will not be good for the sport. Finger pointing at grouse moors again.

[Uilleachan]

Well, the absence of apex raptors in winged shooting game areas is a bit of a give away. Especially, as is the case in Scotland, where adjacent non game shooting areas hold healthy populations.

 

The population spread figures speak for themselves.

[Scully]

Well, the absence of apex raptors in winged shooting game areas is a bit of a give away. Especially, as is the case in Scotland, where adjacent non game shooting areas hold healthy populations.

 

The population spread figures speak for themselves.

I was under the impression there were more numerous raptor populations ( and better breeding success ) on some grouse moors than there are in some RSPB reserves?

[Novice]

Well, the absence of apex raptors in winged shooting game areas is a bit of a give away. Especially, as is the case in Scotland, where adjacent non game shooting areas hold healthy populations.

 

The population spread figures speak for themselves.

If that's the case why doesn't the same hold true for the rest of the UK?

 

There's enough unkeeepered ground north and south of the border to hold populations of raptors now that ddt etc is out of the picture. Why aren't there the numbers about that supposedly should be?

[Uilleachan]

I was under the impression there were more numerous raptor populations ( and better breeding success ) on some grouse moors than there are in some RSPB reserves?

 

 

I can't speak for RSPB reserves as I don't have experience of any. However, "apex" raptors, top of the raptor food chain species, are largely absent from areas of intensive grouse moor management.

 

 

 

 

[Uilleachan]

If that's the case why doesn't the same hold true for the rest of the UK?

 

There's enough unkeeepered ground north and south of the border to hold populations of raptors now that ddt etc is out of the picture. Why aren't there the numbers about that supposedly should be?

 

Thats the million dollar question.

[Scully]

 

 

I can't speak for RSPB reserves as I don't have experience of any. However, "apex" raptors, top of the raptor food chain species, are largely absent from areas of intensive grouse moor management.

 

 

 

 

I dont have experience of RSPB reserves either; I was going off what Id read.

Can you post a link to your info please?

[Uilleachan]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eagle-golden-scotland-highlands-numbers-close-to-historic-levels-a7408816.html

 

Quote from the above:

 

"Golden eagles also continue to be absent from many parts of the eastern Highlands. Less than one third of the traditional ‘home ranges’ in this area were occupied by a pair of eagles and no eagles were recorded at all in over 30 per cent of them, despite the fact that these should be very productive landscapes for these birds. Many of the vacant territories in this area are on ground managed intensively for driven grouse shooting and in recent years, four eagles fitted with satellite tags have been found illegally killed in the central and eastern Highlands.""

 

No eagles at all in England at the moment.

 

As shooters we can wax lyrical about managed moorland habitat diversity, "oh look; a merlin", but with a soaring population of eagles why are there still empty territories? The elephant on the hill seems to be that the vacant territories are in proximity to managed grouse moor.

 

It's a bit like the claim that there's habitat enough for 300 pairs of hen harrier in England, yet England is largely devoid of them. I don't like pointing the finger at our sport, or aspects of it, any more than the next, but there we have it the numbers speak for themselves.

[Scully]

Thats fair enough, but youll have to forgive me for remaining sceptical about some ( not all ) claims made by a source such as the RSPB.

There is proof apparently that on those grouse moors where persecution doesnt take place, numbers of apex raptors are more numerous than on RSPB reserves.

I have absolutely no doubt there are those amongst us who do persecute and kill raptors, and bombproof evidence that some keepers are responsible, does exist, but while the RSPB still trot out emotive comments such as.....there are many unreported and undetected raptor crimes, and this is just the tip of the iceberg.....then Ill remain sceptical. If theyre unreported and undetected how on earth do they know about them? 🤔 Its just a throw away line to encourage bias and push an agenda.

[Piebob]

However, "apex" raptors, top of the raptor food chain species, are largely absent from areas of intensive grouse moor management.

Havers, or utter nonsense for the non-Scots.

[Piebob]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eagle-golden-scotland-highlands-numbers-close-to-historic-levels-a7408816.html

 

Quote from the above:

 

"Golden eagles also continue to be absent from many parts of the eastern Highlands. Less than one third of the traditional ‘home ranges’ in this area were occupied by a pair of eagles and no eagles were recorded at all in over 30 per cent of them, despite the fact that these should be very productive landscapes for these birds. Many of the vacant territories in this area are on ground managed intensively for driven grouse shooting and in recent years, four eagles fitted with satellite tags have been found illegally killed in the central and eastern Highlands.""

 

No eagles at all in England at the moment.

 

As shooters we can wax lyrical about managed moorland habitat diversity, "oh look; a merlin", but with a soaring population of eagles why are there still empty territories? The elephant on the hill seems to be that the vacant territories are in proximity to managed grouse moor.

 

It's a bit like the claim that there's habitat enough for 300 pairs of hen harrier in England, yet England is largely devoid of them. I don't like pointing the finger at our sport, or aspects of it, any more than the next, but there we have it the numbers speak for themselves.

Have you done any correlation between supposed lack of numbers, and wind farm locations? Have you ever wondered why Scotland seems to be the only country in the entire world that has wind turbines that don't chop up raptors?

[Piebob]

And, if we are so concerned about Eagles, why was is acceptable for the RSPB to remove c.70 eaglets from Scotland to relocate to Ireland (where all but a handful died). And why is it about to happen again in an attempt at a re-introduction of eagles in the Lowlands, where anyone in the know will state there is a lack of suitable habitat and food source?

[ShootingEgg]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eagle-golden-scotland-highlands-numbers-close-to-historic-levels-a7408816.html

 

Quote from the above:

 

"Golden eagles also continue to be absent from many parts of the eastern Highlands. Less than one third of the traditional home ranges in this area were occupied by a pair of eagles and no eagles were recorded at all in over 30 per cent of them, despite the fact that these should be very productive landscapes for these birds. Many of the vacant territories in this area are on ground managed intensively for driven grouse shooting and in recent years, four eagles fitted with satellite tags have been found illegally killed in the central and eastern Highlands.""

 

No eagles at all in England at the moment.

 

As shooters we can wax lyrical about managed moorland habitat diversity, "oh look; a merlin", but with a soaring population of eagles why are there still empty territories? The elephant on the hill seems to be that the vacant territories are in proximity to managed grouse moor.

 

It's a bit like the claim that there's habitat enough for 300 pairs of hen harrier in England, yet England is largely devoid of them. I don't like pointing the finger at our sport, or aspects of it, any more than the next, but there we have it the numbers speak for themselves.

So straight away because they aren't there they must be getting killed. Great to see a fellow shooter saying that......

 

There could be a number of things but the rspb sill point the finger at the game keeper's. Look at moors in the southwest and wales. Would be good to know of numbers of bop there where there is no management by game keepers for grouse shooting seeing as thats whats being accused

[walshie]

Ian Botham has taken the RSPB to task over this. When a certain bird was missing for a while, it had "obviously" been purposely killed according to RSPB, yet when they found the bird alive and well, they didn't bother to mention it. This has happened more than once.

 

The numbers certainly do not speak for themselves. Not without some sort of context or proof rather than conjecture from hysterical loveys.

[Uilleachan]

The question is a simple one, why are there few to no apex raptors in the areas where intensive moor management proliferates?

 

If we can't answer that question, and soon, venues offering driven grouse will decline markedly in Scotland, and it isn't the RSPB we need to worry about.

 

Because, like it or not, moorland management "techniques" are firmly in the sights of government, and they have several avenues of prosecution open to them. We're already seeing general licence restrictions served on some estates due to "wildlife crime" investigated by the police:

 

https://www.snhpresscentre.com/news/general-licences-restricted-in-light-of-wildlife-crimes

 

If agricultural subsidy is devolved after brexit, we could also see the loss of subsidy for culprits and even suspects.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Uilleachan

[Paul223]

uilleachan Id suggest you become a member of the GWCT and read their evidence based factual reports.

 

Nothing from the RSPB is to be trusted, only the other day an internal memo was leaked which described their BOP site monitoring system as very poor and unreliable.

[RockySpears]

"now that ddt etc is out of the picture"

 

DDT has never been IN the picture, at least it should not have been.

 

http://www.safechemicalpolicy.org/rachel-was-wrong/

 

https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/ddt-facts-examining-evidence-50-years/

 

The apparent thinning of eggshells by DDT has never been proven, and indeed studies show that thinning started 50 years BEFORE the introduction of DDT

 

http://reason.com/archives/2004/01/07/ddt-eggshells-and-me/

 

I know many of us grew up with the DDT scare, but, as with everything the Greenies say, there is more to it than they admit, and their science is appalling.

 

Much of what they say is plain wrong too: Sea Level rise due to melting Greenland and Antarctica - What rise?

 

Scientists Affirm ‘Recent Lack Of Any Detectable Acceleration’ In Sea Level Rise

 

http://notrickszone.com/2017/10/30/reality-vs-theory-scientists-affirm-recent-lack-of-any-detectable-acceleration-in-sea-level-rise/#sthash.bkGNiUaX.mPffzzLv.dpbs

 

 

RS

[Blackpowder]

Why are game managers always blamed by those numpties. Do they no realise that there are other rural occupations, sheep farming mainly, who might have no love for birds of prey?

 

Blackpowder

[JDog]

uilleachan Id suggest you become a member of the GWCT and read their evidence based factual reports.

Nothing from the RSPB is to be trusted, only the other day an internal memo was leaked which described their BOP site monitoring system as very poor and unreliable.

Precisely.

[Uilleachan]

uilleachan Id suggest you become a member of the GWCT and read their evidence based factual reports.

 

Nothing from the RSPB is to be trusted, only the other day an internal memo was leaked which described their BOP site monitoring system as very poor and unreliable.

 

 

I know better than most that: the RSPB "aren't to be trusted", but nor are any agenda driven body.

 

Why are game managers always blamed by those numpties. Do they no realise that there are other rural occupations, sheep farming mainly, who might have no love for birds of prey?

 

Blackpowder

 

Certainly round here that ^ was the main driver when it come to persecution. Coupled with the fact that there was money to be had for a not too badly beat up eagle, £2k in the 80's. Thats still going on, seem to remember someone getting caught with an eagle in his freezer not that long ago.

 

Poaching and general persecution was stopped round here when some conservation lot started paying a grant of £2k to crofting grazing clarks. All of a sudden eagles were worth more alive. Now we've quite a few and nobody really bats an eyelid. Not even with the sea eagles and they had quite a hard time getting established.

 

I've never been party to killing a raptor myself. But in years gone by it wasn't uncommon. Young birds move in to vacant areas looking to establish territories once they're fully fledged and those with an interest would stop them establishing themselves. It would be utterly naive to think that isn't still going on in some places where that type of interest still exists.

 

Be it a keepering effort, husbandry interests, poaching, or just bloody mindedness, it's still happening. Round here we (royal) stopped killing eagles and they became reestablished. It isn't rocket science.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Uilleachan

[Mice!]

Could a reason for a lack of birds of prey ie eagles be a lack of prey? Things such as hare drives obviously make areas that are shot less appealing to an eagle that needs to find food.

Plus the general disturbance on the moor of shooting partys beaters and people working on the estate compared with other areas where folk follow a footpath?

[panoma1]

As someone else said, If you shoot and want real, factual, science based opinion, on all things shooting..........don't believe anything you hear or read in the media..............join the GWCT.

[Yellow Bear]

Why are game managers always blamed by those numpties. Do they no realise that there are other rural occupations, sheep farming mainly, who might have no love for birds of prey?

 

Blackpowder

Not to forget the pigeon fanciers that have a pathological hatred of BOP, particularly peregrins

[das]

Thats fair enough, but youll have to forgive me for remaining sceptical about some ( not all ) claims made by a source such as the RSPB.

There is proof apparently that on those grouse moors where persecution doesnt take place, numbers of apex raptors are more numerous than on RSPB reserves.

I have absolutely no doubt there are those amongst us who do persecute and kill raptors, and bombproof evidence that some keepers are responsible, does exist, but while the RSPB still trot out emotive comments such as.....there are many unreported and undetected raptor crimes, and this is just the tip of the iceberg.....then Ill remain sceptical. If theyre unreported and undetected how on earth do they know about them? Its just a throw away line to encourage bias and push an agenda.

 

+1Yes, how do they know?

[NatureBoy]

There was a similar story on ITV Anglia news tonight. RSPB saying 30 alleged incidents. 0 prosecutions. I never seen so many BOPs round my way. Including peregrines, hobbies, Merlin and odd kites. Buzzards, sparrow hawks and kestrels an every day sight. Buzzards have a look/go at my decoys most weeks at mo. Plenty of tawny's about this year to. High numbers of prey will always attract predators. Same with otters. mink and cormorants with fisheries.

 

NB