ANOTHER BETRAYAL

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

The remain camp made it perfectly clear at the time of the referendum that a vote to leave would be a vote to leave the EU and all that it entailed, soft and hard brexit only became a thing when the expected vote to remain didn't materialize.

Its called denial, a condition affecting remainers, that is easily cured by a rolled up guardian or indy being swiftly rapped across the back of the head, whilst intoning 'GET OVER  IT ,ITS HAPPENING !' 

[MELLYBOY]

Then you should look outside the bubble - the EU is not Europe and London is not Great Britain !

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 hour ago, MELLYBOY said:

Then you should look outside the bubble - the EU is not Europe and London is not Great Britain !

Please explain.

[Gordon R]

I think it was intended to have a deep meaning, but ended up looking merely pretentious.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Worse than that!

[ditchman]

i cannot bear than Belgium cretin...eva smokstack...........he is a tuly vile vindictive parasitic arrogant peice of verminous excrament...............

 

there is just something about him i do not like............

[bostonmick]

On 01/03/2018 at 13:07, pinfireman said:

Why?

It was Blair/Brown who opened the door....it,s Cameron / May who failed to close it!

He is a duplicitous so and so (polite term!)...As  head of the Crown Prosecution Service, he deliberately failed to deport all those, like Abu Hamza, who wanted to  destroy Britain. He was useless!

The last time I looked the definition of leave was to do just that.not be held to ransom over two years after the leave vote we are no nearer being out.in fact all that has been talked about is how much penance cash we must pay and how many years of so called transition we are to suffer.

[oowee]

4 hours ago, pinfireman said:

And you are blind to reality! Ask anyone who works at Dover,  or Heathrow..Non-EU are still arriving in numbers, and the Home Office have NO IDEA how many are here, plus  fake "students" who never return home... PLUS, all those with the "right" to come from Third World countries that were former  colonies....a loophole that should have been blocked 50 years ago.....once full employment had been achieved!

So we agree at last. Where we have control over migration, the controls do not work. As we both say the numbers are unclear and the regulatory control does not work to reduce the numbers to a satisfactory level (whatever that is). The loopholes are many and have not been closed.

Lets take that one step further. Assume we have left the EU and now have control of our immigration. How can we have confidence that border controls (migration levels) will work when it does not work now in the areas where we have control? Some will say an Australian type of points based system would be most appropriate   Great for skilled worker scenarios, maybe. Those protagonists forget however, that the UK is in need of many unskilled workers (not just seasonal) but for warehouse work, farm hands, care workers, construction, maintenance etc. It's hard to see how such a system could be written let alone managed in a way that had any significant impact on movement. Add to this the millions of EU workers that are already here that will have the rights to bring family members etc, just as the system applied to non EU migrants now ( as you suggest the loopholes).  Some will say that we have enough workers in the UK but we do not have the incentive framework to bring them back into the labour market, as evidenced by the last 40 years of the economic inclusion agenda.

What we are left with is a pretty porous border control system unlikely to have significant impact on migration. I suspect that a far more significant impact on movement is likely to be economic alignment as the once poorer countries of the former eastern Europe grow richer and the drive for migration reduces as a result. 

[Retsdon]

If we're talking betrayal, the net needs to pretty wide. How come the Germans, the French, the Italians, and the Spanish all own their own car manufacturers whilst iconic British marques are owned by Indian or German corporations? The steel industry another Indian sub-division?  How come foreign states profit from owning basic British utility providers? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/revealed-how-the-world-gets-rich-from-privatising-british-public-services-9874048.html How come German manufacturers still provide proper, working apprenticeships to young people with German surnames whilst British indigenous youngsters must dig in their own pockets to pay for their own training with no certainly of a job at the end, or else compete in the unskilled job market against all and sundry from around the globe?

It wasn't the EU did this to us. We did it to ourselves. I'm no fan of the EU at all, at all, and in my heart I'm a leaver. But honestly, most of the social and economic wounds that people blame on tne EU were, in reality, self-inflicted. 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

So we agree at last. Where we have control over migration, the controls do not work. As we both say the numbers are unclear and the regulatory control does not work to reduce the numbers to a satisfactory level (whatever that is). The loopholes are many and have not been closed.

Lets take that one step further. Assume we have left the EU and now have control of our immigration. How can we have confidence that border controls (migration levels) will work when it does not work now in the areas where we have control? Some will say an Australian type of points based system would be most appropriate   Great for skilled worker scenarios, maybe. Those protagonists forget however, that the UK is in need of many unskilled workers (not just seasonal) but for warehouse work, farm hands, care workers, construction, maintenance etc. It's hard to see how such a system could be written let alone managed in a way that had any significant impact on movement. Add to this the millions of EU workers that are already here that will have the rights to bring family members etc, just as the system applied to non EU migrants now ( as you suggest the loopholes).  Some will say that we have enough workers in the UK but we do not have the incentive framework to bring them back into the labour market, as evidenced by the last 40 years of the economic inclusion agenda.

What we are left with is a pretty porous border control system unlikely to have significant impact on migration. I suspect that a far more significant impact on movement is likely to be economic alignment as the once poorer countries of the former eastern Europe grow richer and the drive for migration reduces as a result. 

What you and alot of other remainers don't seem to understand is that we don't need saving from ourselves or convincing of your argument, we're not thick and have made our minds up, the votes been cast so let' get on with it.

[pinfireman]

5 hours ago, oowee said:

So we agree at last. Where we have control over migration, the controls do not work. As we both say the numbers are unclear and the regulatory control does not work to reduce the numbers to a satisfactory level (whatever that is). The loopholes are many and have not been closed.

Lets take that one step further. Assume we have left the EU and now have control of our immigration. How can we have confidence that border controls (migration levels) will work when it does not work now in the areas where we have control? Some will say an Australian type of points based system would be most appropriate   Great for skilled worker scenarios, maybe. Those protagonists forget however, that the UK is in need of many unskilled workers (not just seasonal) but for warehouse work, farm hands, care workers, construction, maintenance etc. It's hard to see how such a system could be written let alone managed in a way that had any significant impact on movement. Add to this the millions of EU workers that are already here that will have the rights to bring family members etc, just as the system applied to non EU migrants now ( as you suggest the loopholes).  Some will say that we have enough workers in the UK but we do not have the incentive framework to bring them back into the labour market, as evidenced by the last 40 years of the economic inclusion agenda.

What we are left with is a pretty porous border control system unlikely to have significant impact on migration. I suspect that a far more significant impact on movement is likely to be economic alignment as the once poorer countries of the former eastern Europe grow richer and the drive for migration reduces as a result. 

We quadruple the number of Border Guards, we tighten up all the loopholes, we end the right of all those here, to have family members automatically gain access to stay here, we  remove benefits from those capable of unskilled work, and by doing so reduce our unemployment figures, we TRAIN all our young people for work, no longer allowing them to choose a life on benefits.we get rid of University courses that do not benefit this country....so much we can, and should , do......

Of course, under Jeremy, this will never happen.....he needs a couple of million unemployed to boost Labours  vote....

[pinfireman]

5 hours ago, Retsdon said:

If we're talking betrayal, the net needs to pretty wide. How come the Germans, the French, the Italians, and the Spanish all own their own car manufacturers whilst iconic British marques are owned by Indian or German corporations? The steel industry another Indian sub-division?  How come foreign states profit from owning basic British utility providers? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/revealed-how-the-world-gets-rich-from-privatising-british-public-services-9874048.html How come German manufacturers still provide proper, working apprenticeships to young people with German surnames whilst British indigenous youngsters must dig in their own pockets to pay for their own training with no certainly of a job at the end, or else compete in the unskilled job market against all and sundry from around the globe?

It wasn't the EU did this to us. We did it to ourselves. I'm no fan of the EU at all, at all, and in my heart I'm a leaver. But honestly, most of the social and economic wounds that people blame on tne EU were, in reality, self-inflicted. 

Try looking at some of the EU decisions that inflicted  some of the issues you mention.....not allowing our governments to help those of our industries that needed short term financial assistance....Not allowed under EU law (a law we did not pass!).  Yet Renault (just one example) are allowed government funding.....As did Fiat.....etc. EU laws mean our older power stations have to close before they are worn out (EU environmental garbage).Pressure by the EU to privatise our utilities...... Yes, our governments screwed up at times,  but they are not the only culprits.

[12gauge82]

Talking of betrayals 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/02/eu-citizenship-for-sale-as-russian-oligarch-oleg-deripaska-buys-cypriot-passport

Sooner we leave the better!

[dead eye alan]

17 hours ago, ditchman said:

i cannot bear than Belgium cretin...eva smokstack...........he is a tuly vile vindictive parasitic arrogant peice of verminous excrament...............

 

there is just something about him i do not like............

 

 And i thought you were his greatest fan.

[oowee]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Talking of betrayals 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/02/eu-citizenship-for-sale-as-russian-oligarch-oleg-deripaska-buys-cypriot-passport

Sooner we leave the better!

We need a system like this for UK it looks like a good earner for the country. Much cheaper to move to Australia.  

Edited March 3, 2018 by oowee

[12gauge82]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

We need a system like this for UK it looks like a good earner for the country. Much cheaper to move to Australia.  

No thanks, I would like to live in the country I was born in, under the democratic system my grandparents, great grandparents and great uncles, fought and died during two world wars trying to protect, free from the unelected and undemocratic meddling of the EU, if the UK wanted to be part of the United States of the EU, we could have rolled over when the Germans invaded and countless lives would have been saved.

[old man]

16 hours ago, Retsdon said:

If we're talking betrayal, the net needs to pretty wide. How come the Germans, the French, the Italians, and the Spanish all own their own car manufacturers whilst iconic British marques are owned by Indian or German corporations? The steel industry another Indian sub-division?  How come foreign states profit from owning basic British utility providers? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/revealed-how-the-world-gets-rich-from-privatising-british-public-services-9874048.html How come German manufacturers still provide proper, working apprenticeships to young people with German surnames whilst British indigenous youngsters must dig in their own pockets to pay for their own training with no certainly of a job at the end, or else compete in the unskilled job market against all and sundry from around the globe?

It wasn't the EU did this to us. We did it to ourselves. I'm no fan of the EU at all, at all, and in my heart I'm a leaver. But honestly, most of the social and economic wounds that people blame on tne EU were, in reality, self-inflicted. 

Thatcher started all of the giveaways, unlike some Countries whose industries now own ours, we gave away all controls. Germany were not so stupid? France ignore the rules and so on. 

Also nice that our politicos who received free university education soon ended it for our future generations?

 

[oowee]

5 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

No thanks, I would like to live in the country I was born in, under the democratic system my grandparents, great grandparents and great uncles, fought and died during two world wars trying to protect, free from the unelected and undemocratic meddling of the EU, if the UK wanted to be part of the United States of the EU, we could have rolled over when the Germans invaded and countless lives would have been saved.

You can still stay  A few extra billionaires will be a bonus. 

[12gauge82]

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

You can still stay  A few extra billionaires will be a bonus. 

Thank you very much.

The thing is, trade and even uncontrolled migration aside, to the voters there are just to many downsides to EU membership, a democratic vote has happened and whatever your views, if you beleive in freedom and democracy you should support us leaving the EU in the spirit the vote was cast, which means the customs union and everything that being an EU member means, anything less is supporting a dictatorship.

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

You can still stay  A few extra billionaires will be a bonus. 

Good plan ! Sell  them EU citizenship before we leave,  call it £500k a pop, then when we leave, tell them they need to apply for permanent residency ,as we are no longer a member.No refund though.
Good thinking oowee 

[12gauge82]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Good plan ! Sell  them EU citizenship before we leave,  call it £500k a pop, then when we leave, tell them they need to apply for permanent residency ,as we are no longer a member.No refund though.
Good thinking oowee 

 very good, I like that idea.

Oowee for prime minister.

[oowee]

24 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

 very good, I like that idea.

Oowee for prime minister.

 

27 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Good plan ! Sell  them EU citizenship before we leave,  call it £500k a pop, then when we leave, tell them they need to apply for permanent residency ,as we are no longer a member.No refund though.
Good thinking oowee 

Sounds like a plan  I would charge them for permanent residency and not just the £2k or so it is now. 

All except me for PM I wouldn't do the job for any amount of money life is too short.  

[JohnfromUK]

8 minutes ago, oowee said:

All except me for PM I wouldn't do the job for any amount of money life is too short.

You are very wise, just imagine having to work with her ministerial and parliamentary colleagues on an everyday basis!

[oowee]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

You are very wise, just imagine having to work with her ministerial and parliamentary colleagues on an everyday basis!

Sad thing is in the past I worked with a fair few of them on a weekly basis if not daily. 

[pinfireman]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

No thanks, I would like to live in the country I was born in, under the democratic system my grandparents, great grandparents and great uncles, fought and died during two world wars trying to protect, free from the unelected and undemocratic meddling of the EU, if the UK wanted to be part of the United States of the EU, we could have rolled over when the Germans invaded and countless lives would have been saved.

Correct!

2 hours ago, old man said:

Thatcher started all of the giveaways, unlike some Countries whose industries now own ours, we gave away all controls. Germany were not so stupid? France ignore the rules and so on. 

Also nice that our politicos who received free university education soon ended it for our future generations?

 

Well, Blair did say he wanted EVERY child the opportunity to go to university..................a nice idea,but who pays for it? People who do not have children?  Or the taxpayer?

2 hours ago, oowee said:

You can still stay  A few extra billionaires will be a bonus. 

So long as they spend their money here?