223 or 243?

[ChrisPCarter]

I've applied for my Firearms certificate and been told I can have a 17HMR and 223 but after a bit more discussion I was also given a 243 as I may be getting into some controlling of deer and am planning to do my DSC.

I was planning on using the 17HMR for rabbits, crows and close range foxes so do you think it would be more sensible to go for a second rifle in 243 for fox and deer straight away so I have everything covered?

What is the price difference in ammo between 223 and 243? 

What are the advantages and disadvantages of these two?

I'm hoping to stick to just two rifles, unlike my large collection of shotguns!

Cheers,

Chris.

[Jason_ox]

If it was me I’d go for the .17 and 243 and leave the .223 unless you wanted  a dedicated NV setup then I would opt for the .223 with NV.

As for pros and cons between the two, I’m sure it has been discussed a lot! 

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Jason_ox

[wymberley]

3 into 2 doesn't work all that well as you often end up with a bit of a gap in capability. This has just been suggested very recently on another topic (wisely in my opinion) and that is to give the HMR a miss and go to 22 Hornet and re-load. This would work out as cheap as buying HMR ammo. For the rabbit, a softer load and lighter bullet will do the trick.

So, what about fox? Shooting in daylight or at night? If it's the latter how far do you think you can consistently and accurately shoot - you have the 243 for daylight remember? Again, this is my opinion and won't suit everyone. You might get lucky and find a 1 in 16 twist rate that will do the job but this is very unlikely so you really want a 1 in 14. Having found one, have a play with a ballistic programme and see what 50g with a BC of 0.214 at 2770 ft/sec gives you at 200 yards. Fine, the 223 has the edge but can you shoot that far in the dark? Just a thought. That is simply my preference, but loading for 45g with a good combination of bullet and powder choice still gives a ME of just 30 ft/lbs below that described above - and it's a load suited to the more usual Hornet barrel. If you need a 223 then you need it, but the question remains, do you?

The problem we have is my first sentence. I no longer shoot deer so the 243 has long gone. However if I still did then I'd still have it. One rifle. I now have just the HMR and the 22 Hornet. 3 rifles. This proves the point of that sentence, but if one of those 2 had to go, as much as I enjoy shooting it, it would be the HMR.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by wymberley
Punctuation

[steve_b_wales]

Having owned and used both calibres, I would go for the .243. Perfect for Fox & Deer.

[Scully]

.243 for me then you have everything covered. 

[bornfree]

I have a 223 and 243 the 223 is a dedicated NV gun. And I think the perfect caliber for NV.

[Dekers]

.223 has limited deer legality, so if you are doing a DSC and going for deer it has to be .243!

[rwade545]

There is a reason why you see lots of .243 for sale on guntrader. They are a very popular calibre for one gun does it all. Have a look at twist rates and if you can get a fast twist rate rifle that will stabilise 100 grain bullets then you are onto a winner. Will do everything from fox to large deer and just so long as you don’t get the barrel too hot target work to long range too.

Having been through multiple rifles and scopes I would prefer to get one good rifle and very good scope that split the finances and have to compromise as I end up selling for a big loss and spending even more.

or get a .17 hornet, .243 and start reloading as the Hornet can be loaded for Hmr cost but has a .223 trajectory

 

just my thought If I was starting again.  

 

 

 

[ChrisPCarter]

Great, thanks for the advice guys.

I'll have a read up on the 17 Hornet but otherwise it probably seems sensible to go with the HMR and a 243.

I'm arranging an afternoon with a local guy recommended by a friend in police firearms and he's going to let me have a go with a wide range of guns in different calibres to give me a better idea of what I want/need.

What guns should I be looking at for good quality at a reasonable price? I'm a big fan of Miroku in my shotguns so who are the equivalent in rifles?

Is buying used still the best bet as with shotguns?

[Hendrix's rifle]

22 hornet instead of the hmr and the 243, as others have said a 223 for nightvision use. If you put premium optics on the 243 you may find they won't work well with an add on nv so then you need to swap scopes around constantly 

[ChrisPCarter]

I'm wanting something capable of all deer so I'll need the 243?

Hadn't noticed the 17 and 22 Hornet being mentioned above. I'll have a read about both.

Any other good UK websites and Facebook groups for rifles that I can look at for advice and info?

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, ChrisPCarter said:

I'm wanting something capable of all deer so I'll need the 243?

Hadn't noticed the 17 and 22 Hornet being mentioned above. I'll have a read about both.

Any other good UK websites and Facebook groups for rifles that I can look at for advice and info?

Hesitate to answer this, but as you did ask, 17 WSM?

[mick miller]

17 hornet and 243 will cover you from crows/ rabbits to red. 243 with 55gn BT is a wicked foxing round. Reload for the hornet and you've got hmr priced ammo that does another 1000fps with ease.

[wymberley]

12 minutes ago, mick miller said:

17 hornet and 243 will cover you from crows/ rabbits to red. 243 with 55gn BT is a wicked foxing round. Reload for the hornet and you've got hmr priced ammo that does another 1000fps with ease.

OP hasn't mentioned this bit on this topic as yet. Hence the 17 WSM mention:-

"I've seen 17 Hornet mentioned a few times recently but I'm not wanting to start reloading as a few people seem to recommend - I never have time to reload for my small bore shotguns as it is! "

[figgy]

.22 wmr Hornet or whatever wildcat you like. .223 for fox and small deer and a .308 for the deer. Why limit tpo just two and compromise.

Edited May 15, 2018 by figgy

[mick miller]

18 minutes ago, figgy said:

.22 wmr Hornet or whatever wildcat you like. .223 for fox and small deer and a .308 for the deer. Why limit tpo just two and compromise.

Cabinet space, money, there can be all sorts of reasons why someone only wants 2 calibres. Perhaps a 6.5 of some type would be an even better choice over 243. 260rem, 6.5 creedmore, 6.5 x (insert what you like here), I'd take any of those over a 308.

 

48 minutes ago, wymberley said:

"I've seen 17 Hornet mentioned a few times recently but I'm not wanting to start reloading as a few people seem to recommend - I never have time to reload for my small bore shotguns as it is! "

Wouldn't want any of the 17 rimfires, 17wsm or 17 hmr personally - 22 hornet might be the better choice in this case and if the OP shoots 22 hornet and PPU I'll buy the once fired!

[Walker570]

17HMR without doubt. Keep any shots on a fox to 60yrds or less.  Personally I would ask your firearms guy for a 25 calibre ... I like the 257 Roberts but a 25-06 cannot be sneezed at.

Absolutely no difference in the danger potential between the two but I rate the 25-06 way better than the 243Win and also, the 257 Roberts will shoot anything in this country with ease and will shoot anything from 60gr to 120gr which the 243 will not.   It is also a very gentle round to shoot if your recoil sensitive.  I am all for widening the horizons of these firearms officers who seem to be stuck in a rut on calibre choice.

[Fisheruk]

Think about the 6.5x55 Swed. iMHO a much better choice than the 243. 

[Gerry78]

Go with the popular calibres theres a reason there popular 243 will do you from foxes right up till roe /sika deer etc If your hunting Reds then maybe bigger calibre Depending where you shooting reds scotland etc  17hmr will do you for rabbits foxes etc You should be good to go once you get your self sorted Fancy calibres sound nice but usually fade away 25-06 /257 roberts being a example over here in n Ireland anyway Asking about makes of rifles CZ BROWNING TIKKA SAKO try as many as you can its your money go with rifle that fits you Keep few pound for descent scopes good luck

[Fisheruk]

23 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

Go with the popular calibres theres a reason there popular 243 will do you from foxes right up till roe /sika deer etc If your hunting Reds then maybe bigger calibre Depending where you shooting reds scotland etc  17hmr will do you for rabbits foxes etc You should be good to go once you get your self sorted Fancy calibres sound nice but usually fade away 25-06 /257 roberts being a example over here in n Ireland anyway Asking about makes of rifles CZ BROWNING TIKKA SAKO try as many as you can its your money go with rifle that fits you Keep few pound for descent scopes good luck

The 6.5 will do the Reds as well and is very useful for Fox. A very comfortable round. Balistically better than the 308, IMHO.

[bumpy22]

hmr 243 does everything. all the rest  confuses me?

[ChrisPCarter]

Some useful info so thanks again.

I am lucky to know my local firearms guy pretty well and he basically said you can have whatever you want if you need it and we get an open ticket here in North Yorkshire.

I initially asked for the HMR and 223 as i thought that would be a good introduction and wasn't sure i'd be allowed anything bigger while i'm relatively inexperienced.

I've been shooting air rifles all my life and shotguns for a lot of years and we meet up regularly at various shoots and events so he knows i'm safe and sensible.

I mentioned I am doing my DSC potentially to get into some deer management so we started discussing calibres and I just asked if there was chance i could go straight to something bigger that would cover Roe. He stated his personal favourite (and of quite a few others he stalks with) was 6.5x55 but he said we'll start you off at the bottom end on 243 which i guess is fair enough?

I've now booked to go out for an afternoon with a guy from a local shop who is going to take me out on my land with a selection of rifles and calibres to try them out and get a feel for what they will do.

 

[scotslad]

There is just soooo many calibres available now, only 25yrs ago it was very different

 

.22cf's were almost unheard off, ur small rinfire calibres too and no mods on any cf calibres.

Back then most keepers had 3 rifles, almost all had a 22lr (often 2, 1 with HV and 1 for lamping with subs), a 243, and then either a 270/308 (270's seem to be more an upland/scottish calibre, with 308's more popular in england )

in those days u often used the 22 with HV bullets to give u a smaller foxing calibre, but a 243 does the job just fine even with factory ammo.

While some of the other caibres may be a slightly better choice (2506, 6.5) of bulets etc, at normal stalking ranges it won't mke that much difference really.

U don't mentin wot type of deer u hope to be controlling? Guessing mainly roe in yorkshire, which a 243 will be fine.

Just note some scottish estates don't allow guests to ue 243 on reds on the hill but i doubt that would ever affect u

I'd stick to common calibre that ur local gun shop stocks the ammo for reasonbly cheaply so u can afford to buy plenty to get practising, far more important to know where ur bullet/aim points are and different ranges and be able to put the bulet there time after time.

 

To be honest if ii was to add an extra rifle it would be a 22lr for rabbits, with subs can be very effective where u have a lot of rabbits, and cheap as chips to buy  (prob pick 1  set up for 50-100 quid) and feed.

If u have high numbers of rabbits its a far better tool than the hmr to get numbers down intially

Edited May 16, 2018 by scotslad

[ChrisPCarter]

5 hours ago, scotslad said:

U don't mentin wot type of deer u hope to be controlling? Guessing mainly roe in yorkshire, which a 243 will be fine.

Just note some scottish estates don't allow guests to ue 243 on reds on the hill but i doubt that would ever affect u

I'd stick to common calibre that ur local gun shop stocks the ammo for reasonbly cheaply so u can afford to buy plenty to get practising, far more important to know where ur bullet/aim points are and different ranges and be able to put the bulet there time after time.

10

Yes it will mainly be roe deer. 

I do go up to Scotland quite regularly and I've always fancied a go at the reds one day but maybe I'd be better getting something specifically for that if I ever get round to it. When you say some estates is it a big percentage? Whatever I do it will be relatively cheap.

I've been here before with shotguns and have ended up with a couple of each bore size and swapped and changed guns many times until I've got a selection I love and shoot well with. I'm just trying to minimise all that happening again with rifles! Funds are also a lot more limited now.

I'm now wondering if I'd be better going for a 22LR, 223 and 6.5x55 or my original plan of 17HMR and 243... but that's an extra rifle I certainly don't have cabinet space for or a good location for a second cabinet. No room for a bigger one where it is. 

Decisions, decisions...

Edited May 16, 2018 by ChrisPCarter

[Dekers]

I have 7 rifles, and that excludes the air rifles and pistols and shotguns, but its my business.

Most people get by with a lot less, what you need will simply be dictated by your land and quarry!  Its easy to keep adding and filling gaps, frankly your original .17HMR and .243 is a great starting point and will cover a lot of bases.

The .22lr is a cracking tool and very versatile and perhaps you want something bigger than the .243 as well, but my advice would be stick with HMR and .243 and make other decisions/additions as you find you need to!