Zapp Posted May 30, 2018 Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 There's an ongoing demand for drugs which isnt going to go away and which isn't being and hasn't been significantly reduced through current law enforcement strategy. This demand therefore creates a market which can only currently be a huge monopoly for criminals and which is worth many billions to them. The serious criminal enterprises at the top are already doing whatever else they can to turn a profit - modern slavery, gun running, live-streamed child abuse to order. It's a false equivalence to say they will just do something else when we are talking about pulling the rug on an entire market sector. If they were suddenly priced out of the market the only alternative at the moment would be cheap unregulated synthetic canabinoids coming out if the far East, but those are already here in large quantities anyway. Legalise, regulate, and price criminals out of the market. Portugal's experiences show it can have drastic results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Prawn Posted May 30, 2018 Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 2 hours ago, Zapp said: There's an ongoing demand for drugs which isnt going to go away and which isn't being and hasn't been significantly reduced through current law enforcement strategy. This demand therefore creates a market which can only currently be a huge monopoly for criminals and which is worth many billions to them. The serious criminal enterprises at the top are already doing whatever else they can to turn a profit - modern slavery, gun running, live-streamed child abuse to order. It's a false equivalence to say they will just do something else when we are talking about pulling the rug on an entire market sector. If they were suddenly priced out of the market the only alternative at the moment would be cheap unregulated synthetic canabinoids coming out if the far East, but those are already here in large quantities anyway. Legalise, regulate, and price criminals out of the market. Portugal's experiences show it can have drastic results. We've had this debate on here several times and neither party will agree with the other ever but this post exactly mirrors my thoughts, nicely put sir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted May 30, 2018 Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 2 hours ago, Zapp said: There's an ongoing demand for drugs which isnt going to go away and which isn't being and hasn't been significantly reduced through current law enforcement strategy. This demand therefore creates a market which can only currently be a huge monopoly for criminals and which is worth many billions to them. The serious criminal enterprises at the top are already doing whatever else they can to turn a profit - modern slavery, gun running, live-streamed child abuse to order. It's a false equivalence to say they will just do something else when we are talking about pulling the rug on an entire market sector. If they were suddenly priced out of the market the only alternative at the moment would be cheap unregulated synthetic canabinoids coming out if the far East, but those are already here in large quantities anyway. Legalise, regulate, and price criminals out of the market. Portugal's experiences show it can have drastic results. This ^^^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted May 30, 2018 Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Mungler said: Not considering decriminalisation/ legalisation or some other new way forward because the criminals currently dealing drugs will move on to commit new and different crime is just bonkers. Nobody ever said it wasn't bonkers, but since when has that been a factor? The real world is a long way removed from the ideal world. The real world is about budgets and resources, the kid selling cannabis on the street corner is committing maybe 20 crimes a night. However, the phone in the police station never rings once and "Sid and Doris" in number 27 are totally oblivious to whats going on. Nobody complains, no windows get broken, nobody gets mugged. No crime reports but politically more important, no crime statistics. Alcohol abuse, in its various forms, costs the police possibly 100 times more than drugs (my figures so don't ask for proof) it could even be more than that. From road fatalities to domestics and the Friday / Sat night town centre scenes. I would say that alcohol is the target, forget drugs Edited May 30, 2018 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted May 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 28 minutes ago, Vince Green said: Nobody ever said it wasn't bonkers, but since when has that been a factor? The real world is a long way removed from the ideal world. The real world is about budgets and resources, the kid selling cannabis on the street corner is committing maybe 20 crimes a night. However, the phone in the police station never rings once and "Sid and Doris" in number 27 are totally oblivious to whats going on. Nobody complains, no windows get broken, nobody gets mugged. No crime reports but politically more important, no crime statistics. Alcohol abuse, in its various forms, costs the police possibly 100 times more than drugs (my figures so don't ask for proof) it could even be more than that. From road fatalities to domestics and the Friday / Sat night town centre scenes. I would say that alcohol is the target, forget drugs I would agree that alcohol is a bigger problem ,but it is legal . If you banned alcohol every body would start making their own fire water and selling it on . We would then have the pushers on the streets with buckets of cheap booze . Same thing again and government would lose millions in taxes . Drugs is different and can be fought with proper care and funding . Incidentaly I am tee -total and always have been it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest if booze was banned . harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted May 30, 2018 Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 (edited) I would take a guess that those who believe in making drugs legal have never had their family torn apart by the effects of drugs. I and my brother and sisters could do nothing while an addict brother destroyed our elderly parents last years.i don't want my taxes spent on fueling a habit I would rather it spent stamping out this evil. Why waste millions on wasters surely our own pensioners should have a better life ahead of junkies. Edited May 30, 2018 by bostonmick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted May 30, 2018 Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 On 29/05/2018 at 18:09, HW95J said: Absolutely agree with Harnser, current laws evidently don't work and encourage violent crime etc. Need to treat addiction as an illness rather than an offence and actually try to break the cycle that many find themselves in. Decriminalisation has been successful in other countries and it would be nice to see a government listening to public opinion and independent advisers. This is asking politicians to think logically and rely on evidence before making policy decisions; neither of which are their strong points... and who is going to pay for this addiction?? Yes, decriminalise but refuse users any treatment they can't pay for themselves. Why should we pay for their stupidity. Enough that we now have people suggesting old aged pensioners should sell their homes to help finance the NHS ...we have already paid our share and most didn't waste what we now have on drugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeon Shredder. Posted May 30, 2018 Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 NO, from one who has worked with the pushers and dealers and importers of every type of " recreational " drug, they have no shame and will take advantage of anyone . l've seen every excuse for what they are doing and it's destroyed many, many people from young to old. Do not be influenced by the bleeding hearted liberals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClemFandango Posted May 30, 2018 Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 Alcohol is a legal drug and relatively cheap, addiction still fuels crime and destroys lives. I see no argument for legalising any of the currently illegal drugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 Well, the current plan needs a rethink and suggestion that we just lock them up longer demonstrably hasn’t worked in the States nor has executing them (sic the Far East). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 17 minutes ago, Mungler said: Well, the current plan needs a rethink and suggestion that we just lock them up longer demonstrably hasn’t worked in the States nor has executing them (sic the Far East). Maybe we should decriminalise all the current illegal acts. Wouldn't it be great to live in a crime free country. Envy of the world. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 58 minutes ago, bostonmick said: Maybe we should decriminalise all the current illegal acts. Wouldn't it be great to live in a crime free country. Envy of the world. ? Be careful what you ask for; if we get Diane Abbott as the next Home Secretary, that is the sort of logic she could probably follow ......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: Be careful what you ask for; if we get Diane Abbott as the next Home Secretary, that is the sort of logic she could probably follow ......... Fear not the way this country is going she will be queen to king Jeremy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver pigeon69 Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 17 hours ago, Vince Green said: If you legalise drugs, the drug dealers are not going to disappear off the face of the earth, neither are they going to turn respectable and get a job. They will just find other criminal sources of income, the appearance would be a massive crimewave which the police have no way of coping with and it would make them look very bad in the eyes of the public. The authorities like the situation as it is now because, although there is a massive amount of criminality, it is largely invisible to the general population. Maybe they would get jobs in the "new" industry?? Coffee shops, farms etc??? After all they would have "good work experience" on their CV's. The job adverts may ask for something like " must have at least 6 cautions and two years prison sentence for dealing" ?? On a serious note, IMO a lot of (small time) dealers see it as a victimless crime and i don't think they would move on to breaking into houses or mugging people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClemFandango Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 1 hour ago, bostonmick said: Maybe we should decriminalise all the current illegal acts. Wouldn't it be great to live in a crime free country. Envy of the world. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 19 hours ago, Mungler said: Additionally no one has died from cannabis use or abuse. Not strictly true, also NZ has confirmed around 30 deaths per year iirc 2 hours ago, bostonmick said: Maybe we should decriminalise all the current illegal acts. Wouldn't it be great to live in a crime free country. Envy of the world. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 2 hours ago, Mungler said: Well, the current plan needs a rethink and suggestion that we just lock them up longer demonstrably hasn’t worked in the States nor has executing them (sic the Far East). I'm all in favour of locking them up and throwing the key away, the trouble is they don't! I can't see why you think execution doesn't work? It has brilliant stats where re-offending is concerned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 19 hours ago, Mungler said: Legalise and tax the life out of it. At present the demand is there and it’s the hardcore criminal element that are raking the cash in. Prof Nutt has confirmed that there have been no recorded deaths of people using pure ecstasy - the deaths have occurred with the new synthetic copy drugs and stuff that’s been cut with something awful. Additionally no one has died from cannabis use or abuse. The same cannot be said of alcohol or even prescription painkillers such as tramadol. It is time for a new approach because what’s been done so far hasn’t changed a thing. Might I suggest you speak with the mental heath professionals as to the true effects / costs of cannabis use. In your innocence of the subject of drug abuse straight forward cannabis is no longer good enough for our addicts it has to be mixed with all manner of harmful substances which cause long term mental effects and do lead to death in some cases Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 1 minute ago, bostonmick said: Might I suggest you speak with the mental heath professionals as to the true effects / costs of cannabis use. In your innocence of the subject of drug abuse straight forward cannabis is no longer good enough for our addicts it has to be mixed with all manner of harmful substances which cause long term mental effects and do lead to death in some cases Two families I know have had younger generation members with drug problems. One is now dead leaving a partner and two children, and one has mental health issues that will probably last for the rest of his life. Both started on cannabis, and this led on to other things. I can't answer whether the people concerned would have had similar problems from alcohol, and I can't say whether if they had been able to obtain cannabis legally, it would have all turned out OK. What I can say is that the families in both cases believe that had their children not taken cannabis, then the problems probably would not have arisen. In both cases, so called 'harmless' cannabis started the spiral that caused the harm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martyn2233 Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: Two families I know have had younger generation members with drug problems. One is now dead leaving a partner and two children, and one has mental health issues that will probably last for the rest of his life. Both started on cannabis, and this led on to other things. I can't answer whether the people concerned would have had similar problems from alcohol, and I can't say whether if they had been able to obtain cannabis legally, it would have all turned out OK. What I can say is that the families in both cases believe that had their children not taken cannabis, then the problems probably would not have arisen. In both cases, so called 'harmless' cannabis started the spiral that caused the harm. You mean like alcohol kills more people then cannabis has done. would the families have lost a child to drugs if cannabis wasn’t available probably yes they would have found drugs anyway cannabis is not a gateway drug to other drugs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 26 minutes ago, martyn2233 said: You mean like alcohol kills more people then cannabis has done. would the families have lost a child to drugs if cannabis wasn’t available probably yes they would have found drugs anyway cannabis is not a gateway drug to other drugs Maybe you and the other supporters of drugs should inform your fao of your support for drugs when you next apply for certificate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 36 minutes ago, martyn2233 said: cannabis is not a gateway drug to other drugs Totally disagree. Most who end up on hard drugs start with cannabis. By no means all cannabis users end up on hard drugs, but some do - and that is too many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martyn2233 Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 21 minutes ago, bostonmick said: Maybe you and the other supporters of drugs should inform your fao of your support for drugs when you next apply for certificate. Are you for real it’s got naff all to do with my fao what I think about drugs as I don’t use them plus the police are a shower of xxxx when they refuse to remove drugs from you that have been taken from people (work the doors) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDog Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 27 minutes ago, bostonmick said: Maybe you and the other supporters of drugs should inform your fao of your support for drugs when you next apply for certificate. Bostonmick Your quote was out of order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 7 hours ago, Mungler said: Well, the current plan needs a rethink and suggestion that we just lock them up longer demonstrably hasn’t worked in the States nor has executing them (sic the Far East). Singapore executes quite a few on a regular basis and they don't have a drug problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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