Len2016 Posted August 11, 2018 Report Share Posted August 11, 2018 On 07/08/2018 at 20:10, moose man said: When I’m dead , IF ....there’s anything of use to anyone one else they are more than welcome to it , the bits they don’t want they can chuck over the tip , feed to the pigs or do what ever I won’t care , I won’t have any say and won’t be in the least interested ..All I ask is they find a good home for the dog , guns, fishing tackle and any sporting kit that sees me out ..?..I’d really hate the ff5’s to go to waste ..? well said if a jealous husband doesnt do for me then take all the useful bits and the rest goes to medical reasearch and that saves the price of a funeral so the wake can last a lot longer cheers len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted August 12, 2018 Report Share Posted August 12, 2018 On 10/08/2018 at 17:36, Old farrier said: The nhs cannot afford the treatment for patients at the moment where will the money and skills come from for more transplant surgery By flogging a few at the back door? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted August 12, 2018 Report Share Posted August 12, 2018 8 minutes ago, old man said: By flogging a few at the back door? Probably personaly think it needs a lot more though as it’s not as simple as everyone seems to think it is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeadWasp Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) On 05/08/2018 at 21:05, chrisjpainter said: Quite. It's got nothing to do with the state, it's about saving people's lives. So yeah, you can opt out of saving someone's life if you want... You're missing the point behind a lot of objections. These are not because of the principle of donation but the arrogance of assumption. You shouldn't have to opt out. I thought altruism was meant to be a choice. You should not be obligated to consent to anything. Cue more abuse from people who think their will should be imposed on others.............................................. Edited August 13, 2018 by LeadWasp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 7 minutes ago, LeadWasp said: You're missing the point behind a lot of objections. These are not because of the principle of donation but the arrogance of assumption. You shouldn't have to opt out. I thought altruism was meant to be a choice. You should not be obligated to consent to anything. Cue more abuse from people who think their will should be imposed on others.............................................. I always find the human mindset fascinating. We as a race are very hypocritical, for instance, we as shooters are sick of antis trying to enforce their beliefs on to us and we find it hard to understand why the antis can't see our point of view, yet in the same breath I watch members of the shooting community advocating all sorts of rules and laws be imposed on others. I firmly beleive in freedom of choice, like the recent Burka debate started by Boris Johnson, although he doesn't agree with people wearing it, the moment you start forcing people to dress a certain way and imposing your thoughts on to someone else, you are no longer living in a free country, I see the organ opt out in the same vain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted August 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 You have a choice to opt out. No one is being forced to do anything. When you snuff it you are dumping your remains for the rest to sort out. Just like the other waste you produce lets have some common sense recycling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 12 minutes ago, oowee said: You have a choice to opt out. No one is being forced to do anything. When you snuff it you are dumping your remains for the rest to sort out. Just like the other waste you produce lets have some common sense recycling. Not if you don't know about the legislation your not, so how many million people could potentially have their organs harvested without giving consent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted August 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said: Not if you don't know about the legislation your not, so how many million people could potentially have their organs harvested without giving consent? No one they would be dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeadWasp Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 20 minutes ago, oowee said: You have a choice to opt out. No one is being forced to do anything. When you snuff it you are dumping your remains for the rest to sort out. Just like the other waste you produce lets have some common sense recycling. ...and you've missed the point entirely................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) We need to remember that this legislation has been introduced to save lives - nothing more. Countless thousands of people have agreed to donate but never get around to signing the form (which can be over ridden by surviving relatives) so I'm guessing this way cures that problem. I can completely see why some people argue that having to opt out is unfair as consent is assumed but you have the choice if you feel strongly enough to opt out or simply mention to your next of kin. Do not assume that organs are just given away - to get mine I had to undergo mental assessment , heart and brain scans via an internal camera, gain weight, quit smoking, get fit and have 6 teeth removed before I was put on the list, on the night that I was called 3 of us sat in a waiting area undergoing test after test for nearly 12 hours - one poor guy had contracted a virus and was excluded after waiting for 2 years so when the organ arrived it was down to best match divided by best chance of surviving the operation (the consent form that you sign just before the OP lists "death" as the most common side effect) - I was fortunate enough to be a perfect match so underwent 17 hours of surgery as my prize. It's not easy on anybody this transplant business, but it saves lives. Edited August 13, 2018 by bruno22rf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalahari Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 It might seem a good idea, but in Wales where they brought in this type of legislation transplant rates have fallen! I believe the same thing happened in Spain when they brought it in there. Be careful of what you wish for, what on the surface semms a good idea isn't always so. David. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 23 minutes ago, bruno22rf said: We need to remember that this legislation has been introduced to save lives - nothing more. Countless thousands of people have agreed to donate but never get around to signing the form (which can be over ridden by surviving relatives) so I'm guessing this way cures that problem. I can completely see why some people argue that having to opt out is unfair as consent is assumed but you have the choice if you feel strongly enough to opt out or simply mention to your next of kin. Do not assume that organs are just given away - to get mine I had to undergo mental assessment , heart and brain scans via an internal camera, gain weight, quit smoking, get fit and have 6 teeth removed before I was put on the list, on the night that I was called 3 of us sat in a waiting area undergoing test after test for nearly 12 hours - one poor guy had contracted a virus and was excluded after waiting for 2 years so when the organ arrived it was down to best match divided by best chance of surviving the operation (the consent form that you sign just before the OP lists "death" as the most common side effect) - I was fortunate enough to be a perfect match so underwent 17 hours of surgery as my prize. It's not easy on anybody this transplant business, but it saves lives. I know it is a complex issue, but the legislation will undoubtedly mean some who would have refused if they knew, could have organs taken, if it's as cut and dried as saving lives, why not make it compulsory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted August 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 36 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said: I know it is a complex issue, but the legislation will undoubtedly mean some who would have refused if they knew, could have organs taken, if it's as cut and dried as saving lives, why not make it compulsory? Because that might go against some with religious views? Hopefully it's the same people that would not accept donation. I must admit I don't know which religions are against it. Kalahari's point is interesting with the example in Wales which might suggest compulsion as a way forward. 1 hour ago, LeadWasp said: ...and you've missed the point entirely................. Explain why. We have to opt out of what else happens to our bodies post death so i don't see the difference here. 42 minutes ago, Kalahari said: It might seem a good idea, but in Wales where they brought in this type of legislation transplant rates have fallen! I believe the same thing happened in Spain when they brought it in there. Be careful of what you wish for, what on the surface semms a good idea isn't always so. David. That's a good point. It seems that a proportion of the population opted out because they did not like the presumption in favour, reducing the number of families that could be asked for consent when someone had died. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeadWasp Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 oh.....so now you can get the point......" That's a good point. It seems that a proportion of the population opted out because they did not like the presumption...." You are being forced to do something - to proactively defend your right NOT to have your consent presumed. It staggers me that some people don't understand the principle at stake here. Lots of self righteous comments along the lines of 'hope you don't find yourself in the queue for one'. How easily you give your freedoms away for a 'right-on' cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted August 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, LeadWasp said: oh.....so now you can get the point......" That's a good point. It seems that a proportion of the population opted out because they did not like the presumption...." You are being forced to do something - to proactively defend your right NOT to have your consent presumed. It staggers me that some people don't understand the principle at stake here. Lots of self righteous comments along the lines of 'hope you don't find yourself in the queue for one'. How easily you give your freedoms away for a 'right-on' cause. Your not being forced to do anything. At the point in time you are dead. You still have a right to decide what happens post death but under the proposal if you have not done anything then you get harvested. Makes perfect sense. Exactly the same as getting cremated or buried etc. It happens unless you decide something else no difference. Maybe an incentive scheme would help. Ie if you are harvested then you get a state contribution to your disposal costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 On 09/08/2018 at 17:52, Newbie to this said: It should be a mandatory question on all official applications like registering at a doctors, passport, driving licence, etc. I stick by this statement, if the question is there and has to be answered then the problem of opt out/opt in is no longer a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeadWasp Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) 47 minutes ago, oowee said: Your not being forced to do anything. At the point in time you are dead. You still have a right to decide what happens post death but under the proposal if you have not done anything then you get harvested. Makes perfect sense. Exactly the same as getting cremated or buried etc. It happens unless you decide something else no difference. Maybe an incentive scheme would help. Ie if you are harvested then you get a state contribution to your disposal costs. when you're out on a date and think you're going to get lucky would you presume consent? Edited August 13, 2018 by LeadWasp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 Quote Your not being forced to do anything. Yes you are. You are being forced to make the effort to opt out. Otherwise, you are in the donation scheme. I await the adverts on the TV - "Have your relative's organs been removed without their consent? Contact Solicitors for the dead - no win no fee". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 47 minutes ago, Gordon R said: Yes you are. You are being forced to make the effort to opt out. Otherwise, you are in the donation scheme. I await the adverts on the TV - "Have your relative's organs been removed without their consent? Contact Solicitors for the dead - no win no fee". Another interesting issue raised Gordon and one i hadn't thought of, that would be an enormous own goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) When you die, a lot of your organs are removed anyway. Look up the Alder Hey organs scandal. Tip of the iceberg Edited August 13, 2018 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 4 hours ago, LeadWasp said: oh.....so now you can get the point......" That's a good point. It seems that a proportion of the population opted out because they did not like the presumption...." You are being forced to do something - to proactively defend your right NOT to have your consent presumed. It staggers me that some people don't understand the principle at stake here. Lots of self righteous comments along the lines of 'hope you don't find yourself in the queue for one'. How easily you give your freedoms away for a 'right-on' cause. How many people don't donate blood?? But if your in an accident and need an operation your going to expect the NHS to have blood stocks in order to save your life. obviously there will be room for error and improvement but its just as easy for someone to opt out as it is for those who had a donor card. How would people feel if the NHS said sorry your an adult we can't give you treatment because you haven't donated blood or agreed to be a donor?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 Problem is that we can’t opt out of the nhs we have to contribute towards it even if we opt for private health insurance treatment or care Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martyn2233 Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/08/16/opt-out-organ-donation-scheme-may-lead-fewer-transplants-experts/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diss4111 Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 On 05/08/2018 at 19:42, Velocette said: Well,,,the State may be able to re-populate and restructure my beloved country into something I no longer recognise but I'll be jiggered if its getting any of my organs to help it on its way. I'll be opting out ! Lets hope you never need a transplant, or anyone you care about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocette Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 Its the PRESUMPTION of opting in thereby causing me to have to opt out which seems contrary to the notion of donation as I understand it which I object to. Its my choice,,,! I can explain it to you but cannot understand it for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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