Panorama (Merged threads)

[MartynGT4]

What a load of tosh that was. The comment the 'presenter' made about white men buying guns that kill black men was a bit over the top to say the least. Can't abide people who can't discus anything without having to bring race or skin colour into the equation.

[pinfireman]

Compared to the volume of modern weapons coming in via Eastern Europe, and the EU (no border checks) these antique guns are a flea bite!  And they are cheaper for the criminals to buy! As for bent RFD,s yes, there have been a couple of cases in the last couple of years, but they were jailed some time ago, so this programme might have been more relevant if shown then!

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, Scully said:

I've had a search online ( not an exhaustive one admittedly ) and all the online suppliers I looked at stated primers could not be sent via mail but could be sent to a RFD, where I'm assuming the buyer would need to produce a valid ticket. So where are the primers coming from and where is this easily available ( as the barrister claimed ) ammunition coming from? 

Same place as all these 'freely available' antique guns are coming from presumably, what utter hogwash !

If you can afford a couple grand for an antique gun that someone might be able to make some poor quality ammo for , surely you can afford a 'proper' gun ?
It makes no sense, the delightful gangsta rappers bragged openly about acquiring all manner of illegal guns, but interjected at the end, no doubt to a prompt, 'But the antique ones are da best innit, more reliable ' ?
Of course they are mate, 150 year old guns, out of proof and with home made ammo, are far more reliable than a 20 year old Glock, at blowing your face off that is.

But that doesnt matter, because middle aged white men only buy them to sell to black rappers to kill other black rappers.
By association, every black gang warfare death can be directly attributed to white people..obviously... why else would they do it ? !

Lets get this 'loophole' thing straight too, a loophole is a way to do or acquire something legally that is not strictly legal.
This isnt a loophole, its a majority of genuine collectors going about their legal business, 2 of them broke the law ,and were severely punished.
Just like the tiny minority of legal firearm owners, very occasionally do.

As has been said, a person with a reasonable knowledge of lathe work and engineering, could make a gun, using easily available ammunition.
Im not sure if its still there but there were you tube vids of how to make a rudimentary shotgun, and other lethal weapons.
Its not rocket science, making a lethal instrument.

1 minute ago, pinfireman said:

Compared to the volume of modern weapons coming in via Eastern Europe, and the EU (no border checks) these antique guns are a flea bite!  And they are cheaper for the criminals to buy! As for bent RFD,s yes, there have been a couple of cases in the last couple of years, but they were jailed some time ago, so this programme might have been more relevant if shown then!

Exactly !

[Scully]

9 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

and you believe all the pictures of the weapons in police lock up were the items discussed? Every time there is an amnesty, TV show a brief (very brief!!!) shot of the weapons handed in, and describe them as firearms....weapons that can be fired, when a closer look (if you have recorded the programme) shows this is often not the case! Old air rifles and pistols, and parts thereof, are included in the "haul"!

 

I haven't had a close look by any means, but even a quick glimpse revealed a modern .410 revolver! Not something legally available in this country as far as I'm aware and certainly not at an antique or classic firearm fair. 

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

I haven't had a close look by any means, but even a quick glimpse revealed a modern .410 revolver! Not something legally available in this country as far as I'm aware and certainly not at an antique or classic firearm fair. 

Not definitely not legal here, unless its been modded for humane dispatch , I believe France ect you can have them.

[Remimax]

if there still producing brass for these guns then they are not obsolete in my eyes.

you can teach a monkey to reload in a very short time ,with powder and primers untraceable and bullet casing a simple process its no surprise these old guns are being used.

at the end of the day they are a fully functioning firearm .

trouble is anyone with a decent machine shop background can produce machine guns all day long in a small shed with the right tooling .

whats the answer tougher sentence ?

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, Remimax said:

if there still producing brass for these guns then they are not obsolete in my eyes.

you can teach a monkey to reload in a very short time ,with powder and primers untraceable and bullet casing a simple process its no surprise these old guns are being used.

at the end of the day they are a fully functioning firearm .

trouble is anyone with a decent machine shop background can produce machine guns all day long in a small shed with the right tooling .

whats the answer tougher sentence ?

True, but they are not.
What they are doing is using or modifying .44 special  cases to fit the .44 Russian revolvers.
They either machine the cylinders or alter the brass.
Like Ive said, with a modicum of knowledge , you can make a usable firearm.
But thats not the point, why ?
I was told a few years back that 9mm Berettas were available on the black market in Notts, brand new in the box, for £500.
So what self respecting gangster is going to go for the antique ?
They have seized upon one or two examples of it happening, and created a fake epidemic of antique gun crime, anyone would think the sale and collection of antique guns had just started.
Its misleading, and has a weird hidden agenda.

As a famous err rapper once said 'Guns dont kill people , rappers do' 

[Remimax]

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

True, but they are not.
What they are doing is using or modifying .44 special  cases to fit the .44 Russian revolvers.
They either machine the cylinders or alter the brass.
Like Ive said, with a modicum of knowledge , you can make a usable firearm.
But thats not the point, why ?
I was told a few years back that 9mm Berettas were available on the black market in Notts, brand new in the box, for £500.
So what self respecting gangster is going to go for the antique ?
They have seized upon one or two examples of it happening, and created a fake epidemic of antique gun crime, anyone would think the sale and collection of antique guns had just started.
Its misleading, and has a weird hidden agenda.

As a famous err rapper once said 'Guns dont kill people , rappers do' 

Henry Krank reloading supplies list .44 russian brass ready to go no modifying required

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, Remimax said:

Henry Krank reloading supplies list .44 russian brass ready to go no modifying required

Thats because its the same brass, but Im sure it needs modding, Ill check with someone.

https://www.henrykrank.com/44-s-and-w-russian-starline-brass-cases-pkt-100.html

Edit, I stand corrected, that is ready to go Russian brass, so yes your argument stands, however, if you read the description, it does say it is just shortened .44 special, and can even be used in a normal .44.
So even if it wasnt available, it could very easily be made from that.

I am quite surprised its still for sale after last nights program.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Rewulf

[Newbie to this]

I'm at a loss, they kept mentioning that the ammunition was easily available, yet they didn't purchase any to show us how easily available it is.

Also when looking online at component parts, he mentioned that the website they were on required a valid FAC to purchase certain parts but others don't, so why didn't they purchase all the parts needed to show us how easy it is. 

Maybe the answer to both is because it not that easy.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Gentlemen, you seem to be expecting the BBC to be responsible, reasonable, professional journalists, that is so out of date!

Edited August 21, 2018 by TIGHTCHOKE
Punctuation.

[arjimlad]

The programme completely glossed over how you need FAC to buy essential components for ammunition in the UK, in the interests of sensationalising the "loophole".

They didn't want to say "our plan came unstuck when it came to getting our hands on ammunition components" as it would have detracted from their message.

I don't know whether the components in question are available without licensing abroad though.  As Scully said above, only once they ban everything will they realise that it's utterly futile insofar as certain criminal elements are concerned.

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, arjimlad said:

The programme completely glossed over how you need FAC to buy essential components for ammunition in the UK, in the interests of sensationalising the "loophole".

They didn't want to say "our plan came unstuck when it came to getting our hands on ammunition components" as it would have detracted from their message.

I don't know whether the components in question are available without licensing abroad though.  As Scully said above, only once they ban everything will they realise that it's utterly futile insofar as certain criminal elements are concerned.

This.

Again, far easier ways to acquire ,build or convert a firearm.

Usual BBC rubbish, with a usual BBC agenda.
When was the last time you watched a BBC program about something pro gun ?

[Benthejockey]

Apart from the fact Gordon the gangsta can’t actually get hold of powder or primers to make his dodgy bullets did anyone else pick up on the figures they quoted at the end. 500 obsolete calibre ‘weapons’ seized. Of that 40 were related to crime/criminals and 6 were directly involved in violent crime. So 8% of all seized obsolete calibre firearms were from baddies and 1.2% of those 500 were actively involved in crime. Were the rest handed over to be destroyed etc?? 1% is obviously too much but in the grand scheme of things the influx of modern firearms is surely a much bigger problem! 

Alternativley give all these ‘gangsters’ enough fire power to wipe each other out and let them get on with it. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by Benthejockey

[The Burpster]

This could be made so simple. Obsolete calibers and antiques must be de activated and proved to be and then only traded with a certicatce of proof. If deactivated properly then they cannot be modified back to a working firearm without destroying structural integrity.

the only issue with that is the same as removing Semi-auto and auto full bore rifles from the US, how do you deal with all of those currently in circulation and worse still how do you ever know how many there are out there? 

Yes I guess.plug the loophole allowing function firearms into the uk and being traded with little or no responsibility, but for gods sake why does anyone think it will slow or stop gun crime or gun related crime? 

**** poor journalism for journalism’s sake and 30minutes of my life I won’t get back......?

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Newbie to this said:

I'm at a loss, they kept mentioning that the ammunition was easily available, yet they didn't purchase any to show us how easily available it is.

Also when looking online at component parts, he mentioned that the website they were on required a valid FAC to purchase certain parts but others don't, so why didn't they purchase all the parts needed to show us how easy it is. 

Maybe the answer to both is because it not that easy.

Exactly this. This forms the crux of a lengthy letter I’m compiling. If it’s so easy why did they have to employ a firearms forensic body to do it? I would have been convinced if they had simply bought all the items needed and done it themselves. 

[Salopian]

Why wasn't BBC expert ********** interviewed?

Mervyn Hardly?

[FishNchips]

Well I've complained to Ofcom about what I think is a racist comments concerning a white man buying guns to kill black men .. Maybe some guys off here should do the same .

[Vince Green]

Anybody with an O level in metalwork and a hobby lathe could make a working gun in their garage if they wanted to. They are not mechanically sophisticated pieces of equipment.

There are hundreds of how to do it videos on youtube. . No need to spend several thousands of pounds buying antiques.

The primary fact though is that you have to have a reason to want an illegal gun in the first place. What is the reason? Establish that and we are getting somewhere

Banning things is a knee jerk reaction but it never works, Drugs are banned, well that's worked really well hasn't it? I suspect a lot of these illegal guns are carried by drug dealers

[Scully]

1 hour ago, FishNchips said:

Well I've complained to Ofcom about what I think is a racist comments concerning a white man buying guns to kill black men .. Maybe some guys off here should do the same .

Good for you. ?

[Rossco89]

I have complained to the bbc about the bias of this show and how it misrepresented firearms ownership and use in the uk. I would hope sporting organisations will be doing so publicly, particularly around the portrayal of reloading as an illegal activity 

 

[Westley]

22 hours ago, mel b3 said:

The presenter seemed to think that guns can only kill black people.

No, only guns 'PROVIDED'  by White people,  kill Black people   !     Probably think the same about knives too !

Perhaps restrict 'Stop and Search' to White people and thus find the weapons BEFORE they are sold on 

Edited August 21, 2018 by Westley

[pinfireman]

8 hours ago, Rewulf said:

True, but they are not.
What they are doing is using or modifying .44 special  cases to fit the .44 Russian revolvers.
They either machine the cylinders or alter the brass.
Like Ive said, with a modicum of knowledge , you can make a usable firearm.
But thats not the point, why ?
I was told a few years back that 9mm Berettas were available on the black market in Notts, brand new in the box, for £500.
So what self respecting gangster is going to go for the antique ?
They have seized upon one or two examples of it happening, and created a fake epidemic of antique gun crime, anyone would think the sale and collection of antique guns had just started.
Its misleading, and has a weird hidden agenda.

As a famous err rapper once said 'Guns dont kill people , rappers do' 

Correct!

7 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

I'm at a loss, they kept mentioning that the ammunition was easily available, yet they didn't purchase any to show us how easily available it is.

Also when looking online at component parts, he mentioned that the website they were on required a valid FAC to purchase certain parts but others don't, so why didn't they purchase all the parts needed to show us how easy it is. 

Maybe the answer to both is because it not that easy.

True!

7 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Gentlemen, you seem to be expecting the BBC to be responsible, reasonable, professional journalists, that is so out of date!

The BBC lost all impartiality 30 years ago, after Maggie Thatcher put an end to automatic increases to the Licence Fee! What can you expect from a Corporation that has Chris Packham working for it?

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

This.

Again, far easier ways to acquire ,build or convert a firearm.

Usual BBC rubbish, with a usual BBC agenda.
When was the last time you watched a BBC program about something pro gun ?

When Hell froze over?

[pinfireman]

7 hours ago, Benthejockey said:

Apart from the fact Gordon the gangsta can’t actually get hold of powder or primers to make his dodgy bullets did anyone else pick up on the figures they quoted at the end. 500 obsolete calibre ‘weapons’ seized. Of that 40 were related to crime/criminals and 6 were directly involved in violent crime. So 8% of all seized obsolete calibre firearms were from baddies and 1.2% of those 500 were actively involved in crime. Were the rest handed over to be destroyed etc?? 1% is obviously too much but in the grand scheme of things the influx of modern firearms is surely a much bigger problem! 

Alternativley give all these ‘gangsters’ enough fire power to wipe each other out and let them get on with it. 

The number of  modern, highly lethal, weapons being smuggled in through Europe outnumber these "antique" weapons 100/1 . But the BBC will not draw attention to that, as it will hold our "dear brothers in the EU2 " up to a bad light..............Let,s face it, if they can smuggle 500,000 illegal immigrants in here, it must be a cakewalk to smuggle in something as small as a pistol?

[Jaymo]

1 minute ago, pinfireman said:

The number of  modern, highly lethal, weapons being smuggled in through Europe outnumber these "antique" weapons 100/1 . But the BBC will not draw attention to that, as it will hold our "dear brothers in the EU2 " up to a bad light..............Let,s face it, if they can smuggle 500,000 illegal immigrants in here, it must be a cakewalk to smuggle in something as small as a pistol?

Oh look, another figure plucked out of thin air................ care to enlighten us as to your source.