Brexit - merged threads

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, wymberley said:

The initial mistake was made by the general public back in the mid 70s.

True - but it was made on the advice of (the majority of) the politicians of the time

[12gauge82]

4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

True - but it was made on the advice of (the majority of) the politicians of the time

And don't forget, everyone was lied to then, the government and civil service knew full well what the common market would become, so they hid it from the plebs and sealed it under the official secrets act, believeing that by the time the public found out it'd be too late, it only came out 50 years later. 

[wymberley]

11 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

True - but it was made on the advice of (the majority of) the politicians of the time

They're still politicians cut from the same cloth, so if we went with them then, why can't we go with them now? The answer is obvious. In the 40 or more years since then we've learned our lesson - but the politicians haven't and this lack of initiative on their part has given rise to the likes of that superb post from Walshie.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Round 'em up, put 'em in a field and.............

[Gordon R]

Quote

if we had sent a team of proper negociators to the EU in the first place and not leave it to politico's

One of our main problems was Olly Robbins, the smirking idiot, who told Dominic Raab that he was no longer in charge, whilst they were sat in a committee meeting. Not up to the job. The Tories should have swallowed their pride and asked Nigel Farage for help.

[Yellow Bear]

36 minutes ago, wymberley said:

The initial mistake was made by the general public back in the mid 70s.

Who we now know did not know what they were voting for(to use the classic remoaner phrase) because the politicos only told us part of the story.

[12gauge82]

37 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

Who we now know did not know what they were voting for(to use the classic remoaner phrase) because the politicos only told us part of the story.

Exactly! 

[Dave-G]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

The initial mistake was made by the general public back in the mid 70s.

I don't think 'mistake' is the right word - but can't think of a more apt one.

The official secrets act prevented the general public being aware of the deception we were subjected to regarding the common market,

It only came to be known about decades later after so many slippery slopes has let so much slimy politics slide under the bridge 

Edited April 4, 2019 by Dave-G
syntax

[oowee]

42 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

Who we now know did not know what they were voting for(to use the classic remoaner phrase) because the politicos only told us part of the story.

Or told you only what they knew at the time. Some would say a bit like the last referendum.

I think the EU may well have agreed to a rational proposition if we had put one on the table. If you go into the negotiations unclear as to what you are trying to achieve you have no structure and framework to base the discussions on. With no clear objective and consensus your argument gets gradually eroded away. For May it was never an option to go in with a structure based on reality as she had the ERG to contend with. An early plausible proposition would have seen her toast at the start of the negotiations. She had to appease her party at the start of the process just to keep a seat at the table. 

 

[12gauge82]

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

Or told you only what they knew at the time. Some would say a bit like the last referendum.

I think the EU may well have agreed to a rational proposition if we had put one on the table. If you go into the negotiations unclear as to what you are trying to achieve you have no structure and framework to base the discussions on. With no clear objective and consensus your argument gets gradually eroded away. For May it was never an option to go in with a structure based on reality as she had the ERG to contend with. An early plausible proposition would have seen her toast at the start of the negotiations. She had to appease her party at the start of the process just to keep a seat at the table. 

 

No we were lied to, take a look at this. 

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/882881/Brexit-EU-secret-document-truth-British-public

[oowee]

Yes I have seen this. We have a much more open government now then we had back in the 70's and no doubt at the time such papers were considered the project fear of their time and buried. Heads in the sand. 

Now such things are more in the open,like the Lord Rogers paper that has been made public, which set out exactly the problems with the Brexit process, and what would happen as part of the negotiation process but which have again been ignored as part of project fear. 

[wymberley]

14 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

I don't think 'mistake' is the right word - but can't think of a more apt one.

The official secrets act prevented the general public being aware of the deception we were subjected to regarding the common market,

It only came to be known about decades later after so many slippery slopes has let so much slimy politics slide under the bridge 

Point taken. 'Enforced error', perhaps.

[12gauge82]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

Yes I have seen this. We have a much more open government now then we had back in the 70's and no doubt at the time such papers were considered the project fear of their time and buried. Heads in the sand. 

Now such things are more in the open,like the Lord Rogers paper that has been made public, which set out exactly the problems with the Brexit process, and what would happen as part of the negotiation process but which have again been ignored as part of project fear. 

Yes I think this is right, with global news able to travel in seconds and the Internet things are also more difficult to hide. 

The point is, when as Brexiteers we're told we didn't know what we voted for, the reality is, if ever there was a time we didn't know what we voted for it was the original referendum to stay in the common market. 

I think it's fair to say, in the recent referendum, we weren't told how hard it would be to make a sensible new trade deal with the EU, but the problem is, we've never been given the chance, TM has always believed in remain and it is obvious she was bluffing with the ultimate threat of a no deal, at least if someone who campaigned for brexit had taken the PM job, they could have conducted negotiations based on leaving being a good thing and If (I and practically everyone else who voted leave believe it would be a great thing) it had all gone wrong, the leave side would be exposed as liers and we could look at rejoining the EU, under the current situation, I think it would be fair to say, that if the UK ends up in a very bad position due to the process, it wouldn't be those who campaigned for the leave sides fault, as they've never been given a chance to implement their ideas. 

[Rewulf]

Ooh look, a poll 😄

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/keswcig8s0/Internal_190401_BrexitTrackers_w.pdf

14 minutes ago, oowee said:

Yes I have seen this. We have a much more open government now then we had back in the 70's

Do we ?

How would we know if they were doing exactly the same thing as in the 70 s ?

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Ooh look, a poll 😄

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/keswcig8s0/Internal_190401_BrexitTrackers_w.pdf

Do we ?

How would we know if they were doing exactly the same thing as in the 70 s ?

Maybe because most of the papers have been made public following resignations setting out what a mess it will be and the lack of a coherent plan.  It could be that there are papers squireled away saying it will be the best thing since sliced bread, but they are already proven wrong so I doubt they will be helpful. I am sure there will be some secret papers on the negotiation strategy for the EU side that will make interesting reading.

Not sure otherwise how we would know what we don't know. 

[walshie]

43 minutes ago, oowee said:

I think the EU may well have agreed to a rational proposition if we had put one on the table. 

Really? I don't think they would agree to anything that fell outside of their own plans for world domination.

How many times did we hear Cameron saying he was going to "Go to the EU to arrange more favourable terms"? Time and time again he went there for a jolly up at the taxpayers' expense and time and time again he came home with his tail between his legs like a whipped puppy when they told him "No". Then he tried to sell the EU to us by using our money to send Remain propaganda to every house in the country assuring us we could negotiate a better deal or whatever tripe it was he said. If had had shown us that the EU were open to reasonable negotiations, perhaps more people would have voted with him. As he had proved the EU were nothing but inflexible power hungry bullies, he lost that gamble. Post referendum has just reinforced that view.

I still can't get my head round giving someone loads of money and they give us some back and tell us what we have to spend it on. It's like a kid giving his Dad his paper round money and Dad giving him an allowance, but giving some to the kid next door who doesn't have a paper round. Absolutely crackers.

 

[Mice!]

9 minutes ago, walshie said:

still can't get my head round giving someone loads of money and they give us some back and tell us what we have to spend it on. It's like a kid giving his Dad his paper round money and Dad giving him an allowance, but giving some to the kid next door who doesn't have a paper round. Absolutely crackers.

It's about right though, how many of the 27 countries are doing well? France Germany Holland and I've no idea on the rest, France aren't doing that well, otherwise there wouldn't be riots would there?

So how many of the other 24 are happy doing as their told to keep taking the hand outs shoring up their failing economies?

[Rewulf]

19 minutes ago, oowee said:

Maybe because most of the papers have been made public following resignations setting out what a mess it will be and the lack of a coherent plan.  It could be that there are papers squireled away saying it will be the best thing since sliced bread, but they are already proven wrong so I doubt they will be helpful. I am sure there will be some secret papers on the negotiation strategy for the EU side that will make interesting reading.

Not sure otherwise how we would know what we don't know. 

Look at it this way.
The Chequers/May WA , or Mays deal for short, who wrote it ?
When it was unveiled that weekend at Chequers, its fairly obvious that it wasnt put together with input from the cabinet, as half of then resigned shortly afterwards.
Its also fair to say Davis didnt have a hand in it either, as he couldnt work with it.
We could blame it all on the civil servants like Robbins , but who instructed them to put it together ?

I suspect, and the circumstantial evidence supports it, that the UK didnt have anything to do with its construction.
It was something the EU put on the table, from the start as the ONLY deal that they would accept, I suspect that the 'divorce ' bill was much higher to start with, and thats the only thing that actually got negotiated.
Parliament doesnt want it , the people dont want it, the only people who want it , are Mays inner circle , and the EU.

Why has no one except groups like the ERG , bothered to explore other deal types, why didnt we simply put OUR deal on the table , without divorce payment and Irish backstops ect, and say to Brussels, take it or leave it , if you dont like it , we go WTO?
But instead we have accepted every insult , every demand the EU have put forward, the advantage has always been theirs, because we gave it too them, WHY ?

So what shall we call it if this is the case, deception, 'being sold down the river' by our own government ?
Treason ?

Maybe in 30 or 40 years time , the official secrets act will be lifted and the truth will out.
If we are still in the EUSSR then, it wont, and probably no one will care, or be allowed to ask.

[walshie]

May and Corbyn are currently working on a plan to make it impossible, or at least harder, for future "Brexiteer" (their words) PMs to alter whatever arrangement they make for a customs union. They can't even organise a deal themselves, but whatever it is, no-one will be able to change it? Crazy but true.

It's like I went to sleep and woke up in a dictatorship. Even dictators get overthrown.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

22 minutes ago, Mice! said:

It's about right though, how many of the 27 countries are doing well? France Germany Holland and I've no idea on the rest, France aren't doing that well, otherwise there wouldn't be riots would there?

So how many of the other 24 are happy doing as their told to keep taking the hand outs shoring up their failing economies?

Too many of them!

 

 

Until the penny drops, when we finally get out, I would put good money on others trying to follow!

[walshie]

Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Too many of them!

 

 

Until the penny drops, when we finally get out, I would put good money on others trying to follow!

All of them I suspect. What's not to like about free money?

I don't think it will be a case of the penny dropping, rather the gravy train pulling out of the station, that changes their minds. What's the point of taking orders from the 4th Reich if you aren't getting paid for it?

The stupid thing is, I doubt there will even be an EU in 15 years. 

[Rewulf]

Brexit 2nd EU referendumView all oddsView all odds

• No  4/9
• Yes  15/8

Brexit DateView all oddsView all odds

• April 2019 - June 2019  13/8
• Apr 2019 - Jun 2019  7/4
• Not before 2022  11/4
• July 2019 - December 2019  9/2

No Deal Brexit?View all oddsView all odds

• No (Withdrawal Agreement is ratified, Article 50 extended beyond 2019 or Article 50 revoked)   2/9
• Yes (UK leave the EU in 2019 without Withdrawal Agreement in place)  5/1
• Yes (Before 13-04-2019)  6/1

Article 50 to be RevokedView all oddsView all odds

• No  1/3
• Yes  11/4

Bear in mind , the bookies got the referendum result completely wrong, giving odds of up to 10 / 1 we wouldnt vote to leave.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

The penny dropping comment was meant that of the people of those countries to wake up to the abysmal white elephant that the EU has become!

[walshie]

5 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

The penny dropping comment was meant that of the people of those countries to wake up to the abysmal white elephant that the EU has become!

Are you allowed to say white? 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

4 minutes ago, walshie said:

Are you allowed to say white? 

Oh yes, I have a special dispensation!