Brexit - merged threads

[ditchman]

jean Monnets son is on Sohie Ridge now............................

god Blair makes my skin crawl.......how the hell he is still alive and kicking is totally beyond me..................

[Dave-G]

22 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I think you will find that the over-riding hope was peace, no more world wars by allying every country to each other.

 

Unfortunately it all went a little too far, with the upper echelons seeing it as their way to rule the peace and make their fortunes at our expense.

I feel inclined to agree with the never again motive - mooted by Churchill I think - but corrupt elites have turned our natural gullible goodwill against us.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Dave-G

[Rewulf]

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Interesting to see Nigel Farage arguing with Andrew Marr who wouldn't allow him to answer any questions properly and seemed to want to avoid discussing the up and coming Euro Elections.

[Mice!]

On ‎10‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 21:10, Vince Green said:

Yet we pay a huge subscription to be a member of a club with no benefits for us, roughly a million pounds a day in hard cash, and part of our subscription goes to French, Spanish and Italian farmers who are fraudulently, and cynically claiming huge subsidies they are not entitled to. A lot of the rest of our money goes not to promote growth or expansion but just to sustain corrupt and lazy practices. 

Why can Germany and France flood us with their cars despite the fact we could buy cars cheaper from Japan, USA or Korea but are not allowed to without the EU  putting a 10.8% tariff on cars that WE buy. Nothing to do with them.  And we don't see the 10.8% that's yet another stealth tax by the EU

Great post Vince! Bang on the money.

[Dekers]

On ‎10‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 21:10, Vince Green said:

No but you devalue your own credibility by taking swipes. In a previous life I did a lot of training on conflict and its resolution. One of the things I learned was that as soon as anybody lost their temper and/or starts 'shouting' everybody stops listening to what's being said.(watch Jeremy Kyle)

Insults count as shouting

Now I believe we should leave the EU but I believe that because, my assessment is, that the EU is broken beyond redemption. It was never constructed with a proper blueprint and at least ten of the members were allowed to join when they blatently didn't meet the conditions for membership and now have equal voting rights despite making no financial contribution but now over rule us on every issue .

The single market doesn't benefit both sides, it only ever benefits the seller nation. The buyer nation is disadvantaged by the same amount, and to the same extent financially. We are now trading between £70-100 billion adverse so how is that, in any way, good for us? In simple terms its not

Yet we pay a huge subscription to be a member of a club with no benefits for us, roughly a million pounds a day in hard cash, and part of our subscription goes to French, Spanish and Italian farmers who are fraudulently, and cynically claiming huge subsidies they are not entitled to. A lot of the rest of our money goes not to promote growth or expansion but just to sustain corrupt and lazy practices. 

Why can Germany and France flood us with their cars despite the fact we could buy cars cheaper from Japan, USA or Korea but are not allowed to without the EU  putting a 10.8% tariff on cars that WE buy. Nothing to do with them.  And we don't see the 10.8% that's yet another stealth tax by the EU

I have looked at this long and hard but I can't see what the remainers appear to be able to see, ie a good side to the arrangement. For us its just pay pay pay and lose lose lose .

If you want to engage on this as a discussion, feel free but don't tell me I am a thick middle aged white racist who doesn't understand because that's the Lib Dems view and one day soon that is going to come back and bite them. 

My understanding was nearer £50,000,000 a day.

Yes we get some handouts back, but our NET contribution is far more than 1 million a day!

Edited May 12, 2019 by Dekers

[Raja Clavata]

18 hours ago, old man said:

How do you construe from my simple question asking for clarification of your view that i consider you to be of lower intelligence?

My bad chap, at times it seems like other posters here assert their views as if they speak for everyone else.

I am of the personal opinion that we should have left on the date specified to restore the democracy that that people voted for.

If we are to leave then I agree with you but it proved impossible to do so since WTO Brexit was sidelined by Parliament and they could not agree on the Withdrawal Agreement.

It is plain to me that the reform from within that you propose is clearly impossible,  they do not negotiate just aim to subjugate.

So I'm wasting my time trying to suggest a mechanism by which this could happen?

Perhaps we should start by agreeing what reforms in the EU would make it acceptable for the UK remain part of the bloc? If there is no level of reform which would be acceptable then it's a pointless discussion after all?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

27 to 1, how will any sensible review/reform ever get voted through?

Much better to just get out and leave them to it.

We can then make our own destiny and thrive again.

[Raja Clavata]

17 hours ago, Rewulf said:

This is a good example of why you struggle with this discussion.

Tunnel vision, you refuse to see the error of the statement. I did explain it , but you couldn't see the answer, as you dont want to, or you dont hold any value for my conflicting opinion. 

I could leverage the same at you, but that wouldn't be particularly helpful. I think WE struggle with the discussion because we are coming at it from totally different perspectives, nothing more or less than that. Each can claim that the others logic, reasoning, mental capacity and whatever else is inferior but the reality is we have fundamentally different views.

17 hours ago, Rewulf said:

It's not a key tenet for starters, an organisation can easily be reformed from outside , have you never taken advice from someone who does not have any real connection to you? Do businesses and indeed governments , not pay for analysis and helpful data?

I was talking about driving unsolicited reform from within, sorry I thought that was an obvious point and therefore not necessary to explicitly state.

The organisation needs to WANT to reform , does not the patient need to realise it is sick before it seeks treatment? 

You're mixing two things here, organisations can either want to reform or they can be forced (accept) the need to reform.

Frankly I think you're opposed to the notion of my suggestion to reform from within as a general approach because in the context of Brexit it would mean remaining part of the bloc.

If the only thing that will satisfy you is a WTO Brexit then there isn't really very much left for us to discuss, is there?

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Perhaps we should start by agreeing what reforms in the EU would make it acceptable for the UK remain part of the bloc? If there is no level of reform which would be acceptable then it's a pointless discussion after all?

Because of the internal structure of the EU (basically a round table) the EU is incapable of bringing about any internal change or reform. Now and forever in the future it cannot change itself, that is why I said in a previous post it was built without a blueprint.

It grew organically from a small number of countries that were close geographically, economically and politically into a large random group of oddball states, many with zero GDPs and dodgy politics but who still have equal voting rights despite being only self serving non contributors.

They should never have been allowed to join, they did not qualify for membership and nobody can say why they were admitted, ten non performing countries,  mostly former soviet bloc all together on 1st May 2004.and another two in 2007,  that effectively wrecked the balance and took control away from the big three players 

Nobody is ever going to reform the EU, not now

Realistically our only option is to walk away, its broken and it can never be fixed. Whatever the cost to us in the short term, we have to get away.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Vince Green

[Raja Clavata]

17 hours ago, pinfireman said:

So you assert that there is a compelling case, but cannot, or will not define it? It nullifys your comment?

To clarify; I didn't say I wouldn't or couldn't - I said I didn't, or at least hadn't, considered it was necessary.

The issue here, again, is coming at this from very different perspectives. I believe there is a compelling case to suggest that the successful delivery of Brexit is impossible for the following:

• Some MPs are so fundamentally opposed to Brexit that they will do whatever they can to thwart it.
• Some MPs are so hell bent on WTO Brexit that they will accept, or at least not agree to, anything but that.
• Given a choice between WTO Brexit or Remain the majority of MPs would vote Remain but would prefer that they are not directly attributable / accountable for that decision.
• The government are trying to get a deal through which the EU agree to and that the majority of the above also find acceptable.
• Whoever is in power and responsible for delivering this is stuck between a rock and hard place - they cannot sanction a WTO Brexit and they can't cancel Brexit.

At the moment there appears to be three potential outcomes:

• Conservatives and Labour agree a deal to leave the EU, probably a deal so bad that both sides get slaughtered at the next GE, in fact the deal itself might trigger a GE, and the Brexit Party take power and deliver WTO Brexit.
• The EU get so fed up with us that they force us to decide between WTO Brexit, the WA or Remain. This could reduce to two choices but likely Remain would be one of them.
• Conservatives and Labour find a way to talk away Brexit (possibly with the help of the EU and before the point above occurs).

Personally I cannot see Brexit going away but I also can't see it occuring without the Brexit Party taking power, so at the very least there will have to be at least one further public vote. 

My views are based on the belief that Parliament did not set out to deliberately thwart Brexit and undermine democracy but through a number of factors, some outlined above combined with a significant helping of incompetence plus EU intransigence, it has proven to be impossible to achieve an acceptable outcome.  

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Only a partial taxonomy of parasites I would suggest.

[Rewulf]

53 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

 

Frankly I think you're opposed to the notion of my suggestion to reform from within as a general approach because in the context of Brexit it would mean remaining part of the bloc.

I'm opposed to it because its a waste of time, a smoke and mirrors illusion, an impossibility. 

If the only thing that will satisfy you is a WTO Brexit then there isn't really very much left for us to discuss, is there?

 Not so , I'd like a deal, the May/EU deal is not a deal , it's a withdrawal agreement  that promises , no, GUARANTEES a terrible deal we would find difficult ,legally to get out of, yes WTO would be damaging, but not half as damaging as staying in after all this, economically and politically.

 

As you've stated , and kudos for actually admitting it, May's deal , or a cancelled Brexit, virtually guarantees putting the Brexit party into power, or at the least coalition. 

What odds would you have given a couple of years ago of Farage occupying no 10?

Those odds just got much shorter..and certain people again, aren't laughing now.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

May's deal , or a cancelled Brexit, virtually guarantees putting the Brexit party into power, or at the least coalition. 

What odds would you have given a couple of years ago of Farage occupying no 10?

Those odds just got much shorter..and certain people again, aren't laughing now.

Sadly, the most likely outcome is a coalition of Labour, SNP, Greens and LibDems - which will guarantee a no Brexit.  The 'oppositions will be a motley collection of Tories with previously large majorities and some Brexit members - and will be virtually powerless.

If I thought that a Brexit/Tory/DUP coalition was the most likely government, I would not be nearly as worried as I am about a Labour/SNP/LibDem coalition.  It will be a no Brexit AND a full economic disaster.

[Raja Clavata]

53 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Because of the internal structure of the EU (basically a round table) the EU is incapable of bringing about any internal change or reform. Now and forever in the future it cannot change itself, that is why I said in a previous post it was built without a blueprint.

It grew organically from a small number of countries that were close geographically, economically and politically into a large random group of oddball states, many with zero GDPs and dodgy politics but who still have equal voting rights despite being only self serving non contributors.

They should never have been allowed to join, they did not qualify for membership and nobody can say why they were admitted, ten non performing countries,  mostly former soviet bloc all together on 1st May 2004.and another two in 2007,  that effectively wrecked the balance and took control away from the big three players 

Nobody is ever going to reform the EU, not now

Realistically our only option is to walk away, its broken and it can never be fixed. Whatever the cost to us in the short term, we have to get away.

OK, if the consensus is that there is no way reform can be driven from within then I'm happy to drop the notion.

I was under the impression that at least 18 (if you include the UK) had nationalist movements within their political system and I put it forward in response to the current impasse.

I thought the 2016 Bratislava Declaration was a recognition of the EU itself recognising that it needed to change but it may well have been lip service or derived to try to prevent other states following the UK referendum result.  If the latter I think the mess we are in is probably pretty good demotivation for other states following suit... 

Going back to your previous post on trade and the deficits / benefits etc. - since we are a net consumer, are we not somewhat on the back foot regardless?

[Rewulf]

23 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

It will be a no Brexit AND a full economic disaster

I would give a little more credit to the electorate. 

I don't see the libs making any real gains, the SNP are likely to lose seats, while change UK will perform disastrously. 

Labour will definitely lose seats in the Midlands and North, whilst the tories losses are likely to go straight to the brexit party. 

My bet, tory/brexit/ DUP coalition with a healthy majority. 

[Raja Clavata]

28 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

As you've stated , and kudos for actually admitting it, May's deal , or a cancelled Brexit, virtually guarantees putting the Brexit party into power, or at the least coalition. 

What odds would you have given a couple of years ago of Farage occupying no 10?

Those odds just got much shorter..and certain people again, aren't laughing now.

No kudos needed for stating the blindingly obvious.

I would think it was inconceivable a couple years ago and I would still think the odds are still long. I honestly don't see it as credible, I can't see how he is in any way fit to be PM. Some may cite that Trump is currently good for the US but the UK is not the US.

All that said, then if it happens then if that's the will of the people then at least people would no longer protest the subversion of democracy but I reckon we'd be dealing with a whole new kind of mess.

Personally I don't think the outcome of the EU elections necessarily translates to a GE and for a GE to occur the current mainstream parties need to REALLY mess up.

32 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Sadly, the most likely outcome is a coalition of Labour, SNP, Greens and LibDems - which will guarantee a no Brexit.  The 'oppositions will be a motley collection of Tories with previously large majorities and some Brexit members - and will be virtually powerless.

If I thought that a Brexit/Tory/DUP coalition was the most likely government, I would not be nearly as worried as I am about a Labour/SNP/LibDem coalition.  It will be a no Brexit AND a full economic disaster.

And quite possibly the end of the vast majority of country pursuits...

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, Rewulf said:

My bet, tory/brexit/ DUP coalition with a healthy majority.

If you are right on that, I am comfortable with that, though I never like the idea of coalitions (to many compromises to really 'get things done'), anything is better than a lefty remain coalition or a Corbyn hard left majority.

However - I am not at all sure you are right .......... we will have to wait that one out and see!

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I don't see the libs making any real gains,

I think they may - they are starting from a historically low base and will pick up 'remain' votes.

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

the SNP are likely to lose seats, while change UK will perform disastrously.

Agreed on those two

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

And quite possibly the end of the vast majority of country pursuits...

And quite likely removal/severe restrictions on private ownership of guns

[JohnfromUK]

6 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I don't think the outcome of the EU elections necessarily translates to a GE

That is true - many (including me) have and will use the EU elections as a way of registering our displeasure with the main parties.  I did so last time.

 

7 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

for a GE to occur the current mainstream parties need to REALLY mess up.

Oh believe me - they are quite capable or messing up anything ..........  Couldn't organise a celebration party in a brewery is I think the polite way of expressing it.

[Raja Clavata]

7 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

And quite likely removal/severe restrictions on private ownership of guns

That's exactly what I was getting at, all of which would have been triggered by...

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

That is true - many (including me) have and will use the EU elections as a way of registering our displeasure with the main parties.  I did so last time.

 

Oh believe me - they are quite capable or messing up anything ..........  Couldn't organise a celebration party in a brewery is I think the polite way of expressing it.

Honestly not sure what way I'll vote in the EU elections.

I just think their fear of losing out to the Brexit Party might be enough to force them to get their pooh together.

[Raja Clavata]

19 hours ago, pinfireman said:

This is a quote attributed to Jean Monet, the so-called "father of the EU"

Jean Monnet > Quotes > Quotable Quote

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.”

― Jean Monnet

As you say attributed but has the quote been verified as original? 

[JohnfromUK]

44 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

That's exactly what I was getting at, all of which would have been triggered by...

Honestly not sure what way I'll vote in the EU elections.

I just think their fear of losing out to the Brexit Party might be enough to force them to get their pooh together.

I will be voting for Brexit - no doubt about it. 

• IF we were to leave the EU, then it really doesn't matter who gets elected because they will not take their seats.
• IF (as I suspect) we don't leave the EU, then having representatives who want to leave may kick the issue back into play.

There was a referendum; the outcome was clear (I wasn't actually on the 'wninning side'); that outcome MUST be carried out.  We have been promised that by Cameron, May, the House of Commons (by agreeing an end date when we would leave 'whatever' was negotiated).

All this has been betrayed and that cannot be allowed to just 'slide by'.

However at the next General Election (whenever that may be), I will be voting for what I think will be best for the countries future ....... and that looks like it may end up being a tactical vote to prevent a lefty Corbyn led coalition of lefty remain parties (Labour, SNP, Green, LibDem, Change UK) winning enough to form a government.  Such a Corbyn/lefty coalition would wreck the country and economy for at least a generation.

[oowee]

I can't see the DUP in a Brexit alliance as they can't support separation from the UK or a border option. 

Another possible outcome. If Labour and Con's don't make a deal then May will be out one way or another. Con's will implode and an election would follow. Moderate coalition grouping forms next government. 

We don't want Corbygeddon. 

[pinfireman]

5 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

To clarify; I didn't say I wouldn't or couldn't - I said I didn't, or at least hadn't, considered it was necessary.

The issue here, again, is coming at this from very different perspectives. I believe there is a compelling case to suggest that the successful delivery of Brexit is impossible for the following:

• Some MPs are so fundamentally opposed to Brexit that they will do whatever they can to thwart it.
• Some MPs are so hell bent on WTO Brexit that they will accept, or at least not agree to, anything but that.
• Given a choice between WTO Brexit or Remain the majority of MPs would vote Remain but would prefer that they are not directly attributable / accountable for that decision.
• The government are trying to get a deal through which the EU agree to and that the majority of the above also find acceptable.
• Whoever is in power and responsible for delivering this is stuck between a rock and hard place - they cannot sanction a WTO Brexit and they can't cancel Brexit.

At the moment there appears to be three potential outcomes:

• Conservatives and Labour agree a deal to leave the EU, probably a deal so bad that both sides get slaughtered at the next GE, in fact the deal itself might trigger a GE, and the Brexit Party take power and deliver WTO Brexit.
• The EU get so fed up with us that they force us to decide between WTO Brexit, the WA or Remain. This could reduce to two choices but likely Remain would be one of them.
• Conservatives and Labour find a way to talk away Brexit (possibly with the help of the EU and before the point above occurs).

Personally I cannot see Brexit going away but I also can't see it occuring without the Brexit Party taking power, so at the very least there will have to be at least one further public vote. 

My views are based on the belief that Parliament did not set out to deliberately thwart Brexit and undermine democracy but through a number of factors, some outlined above combined with a significant helping of incompetence plus EU intransigence, it has proven to be impossible to achieve an acceptable outcome.  

Only a partial taxonomy of parasites I would suggest.

If the MPs did not set out to deliberately thwart Brexit, why did they  a. vote FOR a Referendum, and   b. why did the two main parties include Brexit in their manifestos, which their MPs went along with? 

Surely the truth is that they expected Remain to win, and when that did not happen, they conspired together to  foil the democratic will of the people, and threw their dummies out of the pram! If so, that is unforgivable, and they should pay by losing their seats at the next General Election? Whichever party wins that election, the Remoaner MPs should be booted out! If they cannot be trusted with delivering Brexit, they cannot be trusted to lead this country!

[pinfireman]

3 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

As you say attributed but has the quote been verified as original? 

When you read some of his works, you would find it hard NOT to believe this.....he did not believe in the nation state.   His Wiki page has been quite clearly  posted by his Europhile friends, and probably those now in Brussels.  But you can find his writings on the internet, they are hard work, and as dry as dust, but do give an insight into this man,s character.  It,s clear he often backed a loser, yet always came out as on the winning side. 

10 hours ago, old man said:

I wasn't aware of this quote, but if true it makes the sanity of our politicians who led us in to this debacle even more questionable? A crime of Treason barely covers it?

 

What on earth could be a sane reason for that? Mind numbing?

There are plenty of quotes attributed to him, but this is easily the most undemocratic. 

[pinfireman]

8 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Interesting to see Nigel Farage arguing with Andrew Marr who wouldn't allow him to answer any questions properly and seemed to want to avoid discussing the up and coming Euro Elections.

Marr is a Labour apologist! Known as Red Andy at Uni.....He hates Farage, because Farage CAN answer his questions (when not being shouted down).