Brexit - merged threads

[JohnfromUK]

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

Rubbish. 

On the contrary - the EU has repeatedly tried to 'poach' financial big players from London, mainly to Frankfurt and Paris.  They have also repeatedly tried to bring the City under more EU rules.

This https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/5789800/EUs-regulation-of-City-would-strangle-London-says-Mayor-Johnson.html

was long pre Brexit.

The quote is not me, but from an article; "This desire to tame finance has history – and particularly in France. President Mitterand constantly railed against what he saw as attacks by financial speculators. France has always loathed the idea that financial markets had become more powerful than sovereign governments. Indeed, the desire to alter that balance of power was one of the motivations for setting up the single currency".

Edited November 18, 2018 by JohnfromUK

[12gauge82]

12 minutes ago, oowee said:

State aid rules apply across Europe and are strongly enforced by competing nations. Much of my working life has been spent negotiating subsidies under state aid rules including LDV vans to Birmingham, Jaguar to Castle Bromwich as part of Ford, BMW to Wolverhampton, and Nissan to the NE with EV's. I can assure you that the UK has not been prevented applying agreed state aid subsidy. We loose where we are uncompetetive. 

Rubbish. 

Question for you, put aside your view that brexit is a bad thing, do you honestly believe that if we do the deal proposed by May, that it is faithful to the referendum result?

[oowee]

5 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

On the contrary - the EU has repeatedly tried to 'poach' financial big players from London, mainly to Frankfurt and Paris.  They have also repeatedly tried to bring the City under more EU rules.

This https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/5789800/EUs-regulation-of-City-would-strangle-London-says-Mayor-Johnson.html

was long pre Brexit.

The quote is not me, but from an article; "This desire to tame finance has history – and particularly in France. President Mitterand constantly railed against what he saw as attacks by financial speculators. France has always loathed the idea that financial markets had become more powerful than sovereign governments. Indeed, the desire to alter that balance of power was one of the motivations for setting up the single currency".

I don't doubt any of this envy, but to say industry is punished in revenge is not true. 

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Question for you, put aside your view that brexit is a bad thing, do you honestly believe that if we do the deal proposed by May, that it is faithful to the referendum result?

The referendum was a vote to leave. I take that to be we leave the EU membership ie we stop paying and are no longer members so have left. In which case the result of the referendum is fulfilled. Do I think the May deal is a good one for the UK and one we should sign. No. I think it's about the only deal she could get given what is happening around her but I don't think it's good for the UK. 

I think we would have been better either choosing an existing deal (Canada or whatever the others are) and adopting it. Not easy to do without a big majority. Or after an early review, prepare for no deal and use the two years to put the changes in place. That said any politician or party to do that would be toast as the cost will be huge, the economics horrible and the Irish question nasty but that is what we voted for. Better politically to try different options ultimately agree a worse deal or cliff edge fall out and blame the EU. 

[pinfireman]

30 minutes ago, oowee said:

State aid rules apply across Europe and are strongly enforced by competing nations. Much of my working life has been spent negotiating subsidies under state aid rules including LDV vans to Birmingham, Jaguar to Castle Bromwich as part of Ford, BMW to Wolverhampton, and Nissan to the NE with EV's. I can assure you that the UK has not been prevented applying agreed state aid subsidy. We loose where we are uncompetetive. 

Rubbish. 

Maggies government brought Nissan to the North East, NOT Brussels! Jaguar was already here in the UK. And BMW came to get their hands on Land Rover / Range Rover tech, and grab the MINI brand!

13 minutes ago, oowee said:

I don't doubt any of this envy, but to say industry is punished in revenge is not true. 

and you know this...how? 

Edited November 18, 2018 by pinfireman
spelling

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

I don't doubt any of this envy, but to say industry is punished in revenge is not true. 

OK, I will rephrase and explain; the Eu has been unsympathetic in many ways to the UK - because the do not see the UK as conforming to their 'master plan' for 'ever closer union'.  They see our financial sector, both the city with it's relative independence from EU regulation and close ties to the US financial players as a threat to their control.  They also resent the UK not being in their single currency ....... because it gives us greater independence. 

They have, however been active in moving manufacturing around (as others have pointed out) with subsidies used as the 'carrot' and threats of huge fines as the 'stick'.  Steeel is an example of EU rules hampering action https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35933904

Although claimed to give a level playing field, tht is not how the EU plays it against us. https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3614316/EU-s-state-aid-rules-brakes-Britain-continental-subsidies-soar-car-maker-asks-t-same.html

[pinfireman]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

The referendum was a vote to leave. I take that to be we leave the EU membership ie we stop paying and are no longer members so have left. In which case the result of the referendum is fulfilled. Do I think the May deal is a good one for the UK and one we should sign. No. I think it's about the only deal she could get given what is happening around her but I don't think it's good for the UK. 

I think we would have been better either choosing an existing deal (Canada or whatever the others are) and adopting it. Not easy to do without a big majority. Or after an early review, prepare for no deal and use the two years to put the changes in place. That said any politician or party to do that would be toast as the cost will be huge, the economics horrible and the Irish question nasty but that is what we voted for. Better politically to try different options ultimately agree a worse deal or cliff edge fall out and blame the EU. 

You have no proof that it would be economically horrible, only the rantings of  Remoaner economists, usually in the pay of Big Business! There are other views that take a different outlook, but you never seem able to consider them...is that because you are still a Remainer?

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

OK, I will rephrase and explain; the Eu has been unsympathetic in many ways to the UK - because the do not see the UK as conforming to their 'master plan' for 'ever closer union'.  They see our financial sector, both the city with it's relative independence from EU regulation and close ties to the US financial players as a threat to their control.  They also resent the UK not being in their single currency ....... because it gives us greater independence. 

They have, however been active in moving manufacturing around (as others have pointed out) with subsidies used as the 'carrot' and threats of huge fines as the 'stick'.  Steeel is an example of EU rules hampering action https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35933904

Although claimed to give a level playing field, tht is not how the EU plays it against us. https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3614316/EU-s-state-aid-rules-brakes-Britain-continental-subsidies-soar-car-maker-asks-t-same.html

Correct!

[12gauge82]

12 minutes ago, oowee said:

The referendum was a vote to leave. I take that to be we leave the EU membership ie we stop paying and are no longer members so have left. In which case the result of the referendum is fulfilled. Do I think the May deal is a good one for the UK and one we should sign. No. I think it's about the only deal she could get given what is happening around her but I don't think it's good for the UK. 

I think we would have been better either choosing an existing deal (Canada or whatever the others are) and adopting it. Not easy to do without a big majority. Or after an early review, prepare for no deal and use the two years to put the changes in place. That said any politician or party to do that would be toast as the cost will be huge, the economics horrible and the Irish question nasty but that is what we voted for. Better politically to try different options ultimately agree a worse deal or cliff edge fall out and blame the EU. 

Interesting, thanks.

[oowee]

5 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

Maggies government brought Nissan to the North East, NOT Brussels! Jaguar was already here in the UK. And BMW came to get their hands on Land Rover / Range Rover tech, and grab the MINI brand!

and you know this...how? 

Not the Leaf PM. Jag was in Cov. BMW was an engine plant.

 

4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

OK, I will rephrase and explain; the Eu has been unsympathetic in many ways to the UK - because the do not see the UK as conforming to their 'master plan' for 'ever closer union'.  They see our financial sector, both the city with it's relative independence from EU regulation and close ties to the US financial players as a threat to their control.  They also resent the UK not being in their single currency ....... because it gives us greater independence. 

They have, however been active in moving manufacturing around (as others have pointed out) with subsidies used as the 'carrot' and threats of huge fines as the 'stick'.  Steeel is an example of EU rules hampering action https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35933904

Although claimed to give a level playing field, tht is not how the EU plays it against us. https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3614316/EU-s-state-aid-rules-brakes-Britain-continental-subsidies-soar-car-maker-asks-t-same.html

Agreed but the State Aid rules were set against deprivation indicies. Steel (farming and energy) is a special case as it is a strategic industries. It will be true that more is spent on subsidy within Europe as it's bigger and has greater deprivation stats. I think we have lost all of our aid levels now. Places like Slovakia (JLR) are right in the tier two (or whatever is the equivalent level) areas. 

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, oowee said:

Not the Leaf PM. Jag was in Cov. BMW was an engine plant.

 

Agreed but the State Aid rules were set against deprivation indicies. Steel (farming and energy) is a special case as it is a strategic industries. It will be true that more is spent on subsidy within Europe as it's bigger and has greater deprivation stats. I think we have lost all of our aid levels now. Places like Slovakia (JLR) are right in the tier two (or whatever is the equivalent level) areas. 

I don't pretend to understand the details of the 'deprivation indices', but I do see the effects of subsidies being used to influence manufacturing geography.  As a bizarre aside, another (voluminous)  thread is stating we (UK) has 14M in poverty, apparently backed up by a roving UN 'rapporteur'.  Perhaps our 'deprivation index' needs revisiting.

[oowee]

8 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

You have no proof that it would be economically horrible, only the rantings of  Remoaner economists, usually in the pay of Big Business! There are other views that take a different outlook, but you never seem able to consider them...is that because you are still a Remainer?

Correct!

No I have no proof but we know some of the things we will need with no deal. The longer we have to prepare the easier it will be. I have not heard any economist say that a cliff edge no deal will do anything for the UK economy.

Exporters and importers will have to administer WTO tariffs this has a cost.

We will need hundreds of new staff in DEFRA, DiT and customs and we are recruiting already. In the two year transition companies will establish satellites en masse  this has started.

Even if we sort our side of the ports out we will depend on the French and others to do there bit otherwise we face production issues. One of the car companies has in anticipation already agreed a closure at transition. 

The list goes on.

I accept that some have a view that post Brexit after the initial costs that we may be better off. I hope they are right. 

Personally I think there will be a great pension benefit for those building pension in the UK with a European passport 😉 It will not be so easy when I want to sail around the med as each country i visit i will have to clear customs, but that's a minor inconvenience 🙂. 

[Dave-G]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

If you believed the Remainers, the biggest worry Eire will have is the British refugees fleeing over the border into Eire to escape food and medicine shortages in the UK, not to mention the widespread power outages.

Yea but no but yea but we could cause massive delays at the UK customs exit docks just like France is threatening us with at Calais. 😂

 

Its about time we became a lot less obliging.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Dave-G

[oowee]

10 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I don't pretend to understand the details of the 'deprivation indices', but I do see the effects of subsidies being used to influence manufacturing geography.  As a bizarre aside, another (voluminous)  thread is stating we (UK) has 14M in poverty, apparently backed up by a roving UN 'rapporteur'.  Perhaps our 'deprivation index' needs revisiting.

You could well be right. South Wales was the last part of the UK to loose Tier 2 and nothing had changed there for the better.  It was more because other areas of Europe were far worse and only x % of the EU could be in a priority area. It was complete madness as the area had not improved and some of the subsidies encouraged plants to go to areas where they could only survive whilst the subsidy was paid. They did not have the wider manufacturing, supply or skill sets to survive post grant. 

having said that there was a tyre plant (may have been Walkers Exhausts not sure now it was some time ago) that went to Wales just for 5 years for the subsidy and then left too. 

Edited November 18, 2018 by oowee

[JohnfromUK]

8 minutes ago, oowee said:

You could well be right. South Wales was the last part of the UK to loose Tier 2

Long story I'm not prepared to go into (NDA) but I left (resigned from) a company (over 20 years ago) that received considerably more in subsidies for moving various activities to S Wales than it ever made in profits ......... but various people did very well ........

[oowee]

8 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Long story I'm not prepared to go into (NDA) but I left (resigned from) a company (over 20 years ago) that received considerably more in subsidies for moving various activities to S Wales than it ever made in profits ......... but various people did very well ........

I have seen a lot of people make a lot of money from some of the work that I have done. I have also seen a lot of jobs created and whole towns be transformed on the back of company moves. I marched in protest on the back of the Longbridge closure having worked with BMW for the previous years and then on the famous buy out by Alchemy Partners 😞

 

[Gerry78]

Lads yous did vote to leave people in n ireland voted to stay So yous will have to deal with whatever happens

[Newbie to this]

27 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

Lads yous did vote to leave people in n ireland voted to stay So yous will have to deal with whatever happens

Some people in N Ireland voted to leave.

Every vote counted in the referendum not areas.

[Gerry78]

Yes but the majority of people in Northern Ireland voted to Stay mate It’s the same as mainland Britain some people voted to stay but the majority voted to leave But with NI part of Britain Then we had to go with the Majority Just the political situation of N Ireland not the same as the rest of the UK regards border with the Irish republic Religious divide etc 

[Bazooka Joe]

Quote

Yes but the majority of people in Northern Ireland voted to Stay mate

Then we had to go with the Majority

That's because Ireland voted as part of the Union, it's nothing to do with religious divides, for some reason Scotland think the same.

[Gordon R]

It is pathetic - citing countries or areas which voted to stay or leave. Just like the General Election - the majority wins. People need to grow up and deal with it.

[Newbie to this]

10 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

Yes but the majority of people in Northern Ireland voted to Stay mate It’s the same as mainland Britain some people voted to stay but the majority voted to leave But with NI part of Britain Then we had to go with the Majority Just the political situation of N Ireland not the same as the rest of the UK regards border with the Irish republic Religious divide etc 

But the vote was UK wide and every vote counted, the 44.2% that voted leave won the vote. The 55.8% lost the vote and how they voted is inconsequential.

[Stonepark]

Leave the European Union     17,410,742     51.89%
    Remain a member of the European Union     16,141,241     48.11%

 

Is the offical vote count, those who chose not to vote could equally have voted for either choice (or more accurately did not care whether we left or stayed) and any figures apportioning these to the remain vote only is propaganda.

[Newbie to this]

8 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

Some people in N Ireland voted to leave.

Every vote counted in the referendum not areas.

 

7 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

But the vote was UK wide and every vote counted, the 44.2% that voted leave won the vote. The 55.8% lost the vote and how they voted is inconsequential.

 

2 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Leave the European Union     17,410,742     51.89%
    Remain a member of the European Union     16,141,241     48.11%

 

Is the offical vote count, those who chose not to vote could equally have voted for either choice (or more accurately did not care whether we left or stayed) and any figures apportioning these to the remain vote only is propaganda.

My figures are for how N. Ireland voted, because someone had said that they voted to remain, I was merely pointing out that in the referendum every vote counted not like in general elections where area/constituencies count and that 44.2% voted leave and they are the voters that count as leave won. Same with every single area/constituency even if only 1 person voted to leave. The vote was UK wide and the majority wins.

[Gerry78]

Yes Majority wins but you have to remember that half the population of Northern Ireland class themselves as Irish so they wanted to stay with the Irish Republic in the EU We could debate this all year at the end of the day the majority of the Uk voted to leave so just deal with it Bazooka Joe mention Scotland comparing it to NI the difference is NI politics are completely different to the rest of the UK after 30 years of sectarian conflict So that’s why some politicians in NI want special status when we leave 

[ShootingEgg]

1 minute ago, Gerry78 said:

Yes Majority wins but you have to remember that half the population of Northern Ireland class themselves as Irish so they wanted to stay with the Irish Republic in the EU We could debate this all year at the end of the day the majority of the Uk voted to leave so just deal with it Bazooka Joe mention Scotland comparing it to NI the difference is NI politics are completely different to the rest of the UK after 30 years of sectarian conflict So that’s why some politicians in NI want special status when we leave 

Am I wrong in thinking that the republic have been here a some years ago and had 3 referendums, the third being remain.. Bit of a keep voting until it was remain scenario??