Essex lorry deaths

[henry d]

17 minutes ago, bluesj said:

He may have been asked to pick up an empty trailer and take it to where ever, so picked it up left the docks and parked up for some kip and opened the trailer to show any would be crooks there was nothing to pinch. You see lorries parked up all over with the back doors open, sure they it was even suggested to be a good idea at my cpc course 

I`m no expert but I`m not sure why that a trailer would be sent across the channel (supposedly) empty and it seems odd that the driver/prime mover came into Holyhead on Sunday to pick up the trailer early doors wednesday?

[bluesj]

2 minutes ago, henry d said:

I`m no expert but I`m not sure why that a trailer would be sent across the channel (supposedly) empty and it seems odd that the driver/prime mover came into Holyhead on Sunday to pick up the trailer early doors wednesday?

Do we know he never brought another trailer over with him and dropped it? Its not that unusual for empty trailers to come across the channel

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, bluesj said:

Do we know he never brought another trailer over with him and dropped it? Its not that unusual for empty trailers to come across the channel

Who said it was empty ?

[KB1]

I'm sure every one of those poor 39 souls have a back story that would make any of us 'privileged' people shudder!  My heart goes out to them and their families, regardless of nationality, as things must have been pretty desperate for them to even consider climbing into the container in the first place……..  Humility should be the order of the day here, as opposed to condemnation as displayed by some🙄

[bluesj]

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Who said it was empty ?

No one as far as I know but Dave-G asked why a driver would open the back before they had reached their destination and I gave a reason.

[henry d]

8 minutes ago, bluesj said:

Do we know he never brought another trailer over with him and dropped it? Its not that unusual for empty trailers to come across the channel

According to news reports just a prime mover from Ireland. Didn`t know about empty trailers, TY.

2 minutes ago, KB1 said:

I'm sure every one of those poor 39 souls have a back story that would make any of us 'privileged' people shudder!  My heart goes out to them and their families, regardless of nationality, as things must have been pretty desperate for them to even consider climbing into the container in the first place……..  Humility should be the order of the day here, as opposed to condemnation as displayed by some🙄

Here here!

[Newbie to this]

2 hours ago, henry d said:

Put yourself in their shoes, and I have to go for a couple of scenarios here.

• You need money for your family and can`t access normal means to loans, so you get into debt with a loan shark. Rates are worse than Wonga and you can`t pay, so they say the UK is the place for you as you can make a fortune there with your skills (this may also cost more too) and we will get you in as we can provide documentation, bribes a safe workplace in the UK. Next thing you are in a trailer being dropped off at a sweatshop, nail bar, massage parlour and told your family will be beaten. tortured, raped, killed if you try to run and the police will deport/jail/torture you if you go to them and it will take 5-10-15 years to work off the debt. If you are brave enough to do a runner your idea of no if`s or but`s deportation means they get turfed out and face being killed, beaten, further debt/trafficking along with your family, thats not exactly the definition of humanity is it?
• You are a gay man from Brunai/Yemen/Iran/Mauritania/saudi/UAE... and someone suspects you are gay and says they will report you to the police for feeling them up if you don`t pay up. You tell them to take a hike no if`s, no but`s go home.... not very humane at all.

Is that wrong enough on any level? On a human level?

As sad as your scenarios are, they are based on quite big assumptions.

And to answer your question, no it isn't wrong enough on any level.

I stick to my original statement, that any illegal immigrant should 100% face deportation. No ifs no buts. If you want to come to the UK do it legally.

We need to address the reason so many are trying to enter the UK and not settle in the many other safe countries they have travelled through.

And under NO circumstances should asylum ever be considered if you enter illegally. No sad story or hypothetical scenario will ever convince me otherwise.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Newbie to this

[Dave-G]

7 minutes ago, KB1 said:

I'm sure every one of those poor 39 souls have a back story that would make any of us 'privileged' people shudder!  My heart goes out to them and their families, regardless of nationality, as things must have been pretty desperate for them to even consider climbing into the container in the first place……..  Humility should be the order of the day here, as opposed to condemnation as displayed by some🙄

I think you'll find all of us posting here have empathy towards the tragic result, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't express concerns about people smuggling.

Or are you suggesting human trafficking should be swept under the carpet and not be discussed while its fresh in so many minds?

Edited October 24, 2019 by Dave-G

[KB1]

3 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

I think you'll find all of us posting here have empathy towards the tragic result, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't express concerns about people smuggling.

Not all……..

[Cawdor118]

23 hours ago, mel b3 said:

I'm totally against immigration, but it doesn't stop me feeling deeply sorry for those poor souls.

Even if it was a foreign doctor looking after one of your kids? 

I suspect you wouldn't moan then.

[oowee]

7 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

As sad as your scenarios are, they are based on quite big assumptions.

And to answer your question, no it isn't wrong enough on any level.

I stick to my original statement, that ant illegal immigrant should 100% face deportation. No ifs no buts. If you want to come to the UK do it legally.

We need to address the reason so many are trying to enter the UK and not settle in the many other safe countries they have travelled through.

And under NO circumstances should asylum ever be considered if you enter illegally. No sad story or hypothetical scenario will ever convince me otherwise.

 

More targeted foreign aid would help. Proper support and humanitarian missions and initiatives to countries in conflict. The creation of safe zones supported at EU level so the work is shared. Establish transit routes for migrants and asylum seekers closer to the point of embarkation. An EU wide policy for asylum seekers. A identity card system for the UK. Enforce and manage existing migration controls. Provide support and integration initiatives for new arrivals. 

[henry d]

7 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

As sad as your scenarios are, they are based on quite big assumptions.

And to answer your question, no it isn't wrong enough on any level.

I stick to my original statement, that ant illegal immigrant should 100% face deportation. No ifs no buts. If you want to come to the UK do it legally.

We need to address the reason so many are trying to enter the UK and not settle in the many other safe countries they have travelled through.

And under NO circumstances should asylum ever be considered if you enter illegally. No sad story or hypothetical scenario will ever convince me otherwise.

How can they enter legally? Most are destitute, do they just ring it up on their credit card, ask for a payday loan? They are fleeing persecution and those scenarios are played out all across the UK. The Chinese laundry men I knew onboard HM ships are there because they owed money and had to bribe their way into their jobs as it was a quick and lucrative way to make enough so they didn`t end up as chop suey. Two of our local nail bars have been raided and trafficked women found there, no assumptions at all.

[Vince Green]

Illegal immigrants can (and do) gradually establish themselves in this country if they know how to go about it. The  main reason for that lies with the inefficiency in our Civil Service and Councils who don't ask the right questions or carry out the right checks.

As a landlord myself I often watch the programme Slum Landlords and Nightmare Tenants, I find it quite informative but one of the legal requirements of a landlord is to establish a tenant's immigration status. Known as RTR (right to remain).

So when they raid these illegal doss houses with ten people sleeping in one room the landlord could be fined ten times over. Do they get fined? I don't think so, I have never heard of anyone getting fined.

The rules are there, just not enforced 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Vince Green

[Dave-G]

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

 

More targeted foreign aid would help. Proper support and humanitarian missions and initiatives to countries in conflict. The creation of safe zones supported at EU level so the work is shared. Establish transit routes for migrants and asylum seekers closer to the point of embarkation. An EU wide policy for asylum seekers. A identity card system for the UK. Enforce and manage existing migration controls. Provide support and integration initiatives for new arrivals. 

That looks great on paper, except most of the money thrown at it would lead to massive corruption and CEO salaries, politicians salaries... I'm sure I've missed out some who would plunder the pot. 

[Newbie to this]

3 minutes ago, henry d said:

How can they enter legally? Most are destitute, do they just ring it up on their credit card, ask for a payday loan? They are fleeing persecution.

Then they should seek asylum in the first safe country they enter. It's not like we are the first country they enter, we are just their target destination. Or are we getting asylum seekers from Wales and Scotland 

6 minutes ago, henry d said:

those scenarios are played out all across the UK. The Chinese laundry men I knew onboard HM ships are there because they owed money and had to bribe their way into their jobs as it was a quick and lucrative way to make enough so they didn`t end up as chop suey. Two of our local nail bars have been raided and trafficked women found there, no assumptions at all.

You may well have come across said scenarios I'll take your word for it.

But you kind of missed the point of my original post. If we made more efforts to stop people from exploiting them. Like by increasing penalties etc. Then these peoples chances of being exploited greatly reduce.

So I say again we need to remove the reasons why these people risk it all to come to the UK.

[oowee]

4 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

That looks great on paper, except most of the money thrown at it would lead to massive corruption and CEO salaries, politicians salaries... I'm sure I've missed out some who would plunder the pot. 

So what would you suggest? 

1 minute ago, Newbie to this said:

Then they should seek asylum in the first safe country they enter. It's not like we are the first country they enter, we are just their target destination. Or are we getting asylum seekers from Wales and Scotland 

You may well have come across said scenarios I'll take your word for it.

But you kind of missed the point of my original post. If we made more efforts to stop people from exploiting them. Like by increasing penalties etc. Then these peoples chances of being exploited greatly reduce.

So I say again we need to remove the reasons why these people risk it all to come to the UK.

I have suggested a whole host of ways that you might do that. 

[Vince Green]

11 minutes ago, oowee said:

 

More targeted foreign aid would help. Proper support and humanitarian missions and initiatives to countries in conflict. The creation of safe zones supported at EU level so the work is shared. Establish transit routes for migrants and asylum seekers closer to the point of embarkation. An EU wide policy for asylum seekers. A identity card system for the UK. Enforce and manage existing migration controls. Provide support and integration initiatives for new arrivals. 

In an ideal world I would agree with you. However I am now too old and too cynical to have much faith in foreign aidh 

[Newbie to this]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

So what would you suggest? 

I have suggested a whole host of ways that you might do that. 

I'll have a read of them, I must of missed that post 

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

In an ideal world I would agree with you. However I am now too old and too cynical to have much faith in foreign aidh 

You and me both with the apparent way it does not work now. Aid is a very easy thing to say yes to and a very hard thing to say no to. 

[Vince Green]

On those UK Border Force programmes when the officers raid a Chinese restaurant and find a load of illegals working in the kitchens all they do is take their names and tell them to report to a local police station. Which of course they fail to do and immediately disappear again.

It can't just be me who thinks that is pathetic

[oowee]

1 minute ago, Vince Green said:

On those UK Border Force programmes when the officers raid a Chinese restaurant and find a load of illegals working in the kitchens all they do is take their names and tell them to report to a local police station. Which of course they fail to do and immediately disappear again.

It can't just be me who thinks that is pathetic

Don't believe all you see on tv. I know someone that works on the enforcement team. They target car washes and restaurants. The only restaurant in my nearest village has been shut down. The owner facing bankruptcy and the workers are being deported.

[mel b3]

38 minutes ago, Cawdor118 said:

Even if it was a foreign doctor looking after one of your kids? 

I suspect you wouldn't moan then.

I wasn't moaning at all , and I certainly wouldn't moan if a foreign doctor was treating my kids . But Well done for pointing out the stupidly obvious 👍. 

[Cawdor118]

6 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

I wasn't moaning at all , and I certainly wouldn't moan if a foreign doctor was treating my kids . But Well done for pointing out the stupidly obvious 👍. 

By the content of your reply, you are clearly not 'totally against immigration'!

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, it is very sad indeed, most unusual for Chinese nationals although despite what people think of China and the economy there are many many poor who would find it tempting to work in UK but i fear this was human traffickers and a Chinese criminal gang with connections in N I,  

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, it is very sad indeed, most unusual for Chinese nationals although despite what people think of China and the economy there are many many poor who would find it tempting to work in UK but i fear this was human traffickers and a Chinese criminal gang with connections in N I,  

And thousands persecuted by the state. Many disappear and many are held in indefinite detention, with family punishments as a matter of course.