mick miller Posted February 27, 2020 Report Share Posted February 27, 2020 1 hour ago, Scully said: I can agree with you regarding shooting deer, however; there's no sport in that at all, it's as easy as falling off a log, which incidentally is why I stopped. Have fun. Rather like shooting pheasants then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumfelter Posted February 27, 2020 Report Share Posted February 27, 2020 13 hours ago, mick miller said: In the interests of clarity, I don't consider that I shoot animals for sport. Fox shooting - on the rare occasions I shoot foxes, mainly if they have proved to be a pest with peoples livestock (geese, ducks or chickens most often) I don't regard it as sport. It's just something that needs to be done, as humanely as possible (why I won't use an hmr). Otherwise I'm just as happy to watch them where they aren't a problem. I don't actively go out to shoot every fox I see. Rabbit shooting - I will happily shoot rabbits where they are a problem until the numbers are low enough to no longer cause an issue or, as in the case last night, where they are in a fenced garden causing damage to the planting to the point of eradication for the owner. They can be eaten myself or cooked and used for pet food, or beheaded and put out for the buzzards and kites. I don't consider it sport shooting. With the recent decline in rabbit numbers around here I no longer shoot rabbits on farmland, unless there is a localised issue. Crows - I rarely shoot them, I live in an arable area mainly, but should they prove a problem at lambing time I wouldn't have a problem shooting them to protect the newborn lambs. Not sport shooting. Magpies - little *******, I'll shoot these on sight if possible as there are way too many and knacker any attempts by songbirds to raise a brood. Again, not sport shooting. Hares - I don't shoot them. Squirrels - same as magpies. But hardly sporting, sat in a hide on a feeder, dull as dishwater. Pigeons - whilst I really enjoy pigeon shooting and it's an undeniable challenge sometimes, it is really simply pest control, pest control that the byproduct can be eaten or shared with friends. Is this sport shooting? I think not. Deer - My passion. I love deer stalking or sitting in a highseat waiting for the opportunity to present itself, but with an estimated 2m deer in the UK I don't consider it sport shooting, it's species and number control, protection of crop and woodland with a great byproduct for me, my family, my friends and to a lesser extent, the food chain. If deer numbers plummeted due to disease or other reasons I would simply stop. Target shooting - Love it. It is sport shooting, but nothing dies. Clay shooting - as above. The differences with all the above examples is that I am not artificially rearing and releasing animals into the environment and baiting to keep in a location until the time arrives for me to drive them from the area to which they have become habituated to present to a row of guns. If you struggle to see that viewpoint, however much you disagree with it, then it's not me that is confused. I can't really make it much clearer. Taking the time, trouble and expense doing something that you don't enjoy just to help people out? You must be a saint! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 27, 2020 Report Share Posted February 27, 2020 51 minutes ago, mick miller said: Rather like shooting pheasants then. If you like, but not really; I’ve missed lots of flying stuff, but can honestly say with hand on heart, that I’ve never ever missed a deer, whether from a high seat or actual stalking. Now I think of it I can’t recall ever missing a fox either. I did take two shots to kill a moving one with a shotgun once...my first shot hit it full in the face as it trotted towards me, but in my defence it did have a chicken in its mouth at the time ( my first shot did kill the chicken however!😀 ) and it took another shot to finish off the fox! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 (edited) 21 hours ago, stumfelter said: Taking the time, trouble and expense doing something that you don't enjoy just to help people out? You must be a saint! You don't get it do you? Who said I don't enjoy it? I certainly didn't. But I don't rear tens of thousands of rabbits, foxes, pigeons and deer to release into the environment annually so I can just kill them later, for 'sport'. Jesus, how hard is that to get that essential, fundamental difference into your head? Edited February 28, 2020 by mick miller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 3 hours ago, mick miller said: You don't get it do you? Who said I don't enjoy it? I certainly didn't. But I don't rear tens of thousands of rabbits, foxes, pigeons and deer to release into the environment annually so I can just kill them later, for 'sport'. Jesus, how hard is that to get that essential, fundamental difference into your head? So what are you saying? That if driven shooting ( pheasant partridge etc ) is done away with, all other types of live quarry shooting will be acceptable to those who don’t think we should kill things for no other reason than recreation? Should we not rear and release any number of birds ( whether 10 or 10,000 ) for the sole purpose of shooting? Finally, what relevance does any of the above have, regarding the proposed voluntary phasing out of lead shot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 4 hours ago, mick miller said: You don't get it do you? Who said I don't enjoy it? I certainly didn't. But I don't rear tens of thousands of rabbits, foxes, pigeons and deer to release into the environment annually so I can just kill them later, for 'sport'. Jesus, how hard is that to get that essential, fundamental difference into your head? A question for you Mick.!. Above you mention the fact "I (YOU) don't rear tens of thousands of rabbits, foxes, pigeons and deer to release into the environment annually so I can just kill them later, for 'sport'." Are we therefore to assume you do not approve of such activity. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClemFandango Posted February 29, 2020 Report Share Posted February 29, 2020 Don't bother. Literally everything he has posted on this matter has been utter tripe. He doesn't have the first clue about anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozz Posted February 29, 2020 Report Share Posted February 29, 2020 Theas last 3 weeks with all the rain iv been shooting rats. They all got flooded out and been allover the place my go to rat gun is my 9mm garden gun it's a folding falco only 5 year old 40 ft is max range but stops the ******* dead it only occred to me the other day that im going to lose this little gun when the ban comes in . Altho I have reloaded the 9mm in the past when I couldn't find carts but being a rim fire u can only reload about 4 times before u start geting miss fires Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoolinDalton Posted February 29, 2020 Report Share Posted February 29, 2020 A daft question, I know...but who exactly will 'police' the lead ban, IF it ever comes into force? I mean, just how will 'they' (whoever it is that polices it) gain access to private land, farms, estates, etc? Btw, I'm not saying that a lead ban would be a bad thing for the environment, animals and us humans...but I hope that the Government of the day will first of all provide the undisputable scientific evidence on all aspects of lead dangers and secondly, pay for and remove millions of lead water pipes that are still in use in this country, which MAY be affecting the health of everyone! Out yesterday with the gun club, roost shooting. Whist walking over the field towards the wood, I mentioned this topic to one of the lads and he said that he's got a fair few carts to use up. I replied that I remembered talking with his dad (who sadly passed away nearly two years ago and who introduced me to the club) and him saying that he had several thousand carts, to which Matt replied 'Yeh, and the rest!' So I think it'll take him more than 4 years to use them up, even though he's out shooting very often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted March 1, 2020 Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 (edited) The enforcers will by process be the game dealers/processors, as long as game isn't sold there is unlikely to be any checks, just as now. Edited March 1, 2020 by Stonepark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted March 1, 2020 Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 On 22/02/2020 at 11:25, TIGHTCHOKE said: I fully accept that the subject of this thread is the smaller bores. But as in everything, volume and hence money will win everytime. Consequently the whole shebang will be driven by the 12 bore shooters and what they will accept. Still working through this but what about the possibility that the manufacturers can't supply what has been committed on their behalf? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 1, 2020 Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 55 minutes ago, old man said: Still working through this but what about the possibility that the manufacturers can't supply what has been committed on their behalf? Cartridge firms can not deliver at the moment. as said elsewhere its a wad issue right now. Eley and gamebore haver options which might perform acceptably, but i do not think anyone is sure about that yet. Effectively its ignore the sugestion or shoot factory or reload steel come the game season until better wadding is available. i think we might see some developments over the summer but not sure and i personally think anything worthwile will come from abroad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted March 1, 2020 Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 On 22/02/2020 at 20:13, Westley said: I have read all of the above with interest and I wonder how it is that people are actually living longer, when in actual fact, we should be knee deep in lead poisoned corpses, both human and animal. I know of several of the 'older generation', who have given up shooting already. All the hassle of Doctors letters, General Licences and of course the latest, the lead debacle. I have said it before, I know, BUT maybe I can take the lead load of sphericals seriously, WHEN I stop getting my water supplied through the damned stuff. Me too Westley, never mind lead poisoning, the stack of old corpses may well come from being bored witless by the endless carp being spouted about climate change by pre-pubescent creatures and the constant harping by the BBC who continually spout whilst sending reporters endlessly around the globe to re-educate us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldypigeonpopper Posted March 1, 2020 Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 42 minutes ago, old man said: Me too Westley, never mind lead poisoning, the stack of old corpses may well come from being bored witless by the endless carp being spouted about climate change by pre-pubescent creatures and the constant harping by the BBC who continually spout whilst sending reporters endlessly around the globe to re-educate us? hello, well posted OM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted March 1, 2020 Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 👍👍👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 On 25/02/2020 at 13:29, captainhastings said: All about choice. Should have votes on stuff. What makes people think they have the right to dictate every thing. Remind me, who has dictated anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 On 26/02/2020 at 15:49, mick miller said: There is virtually no current market for game. To suggest that using steel shot will lead to a miraculous and wholesale acceptance of pheasant, partridge or grouse by the wider public is, frankly, utter ********. This is simply throwing everyone that doesn't 'enjoy' a 500 bird day on a commercial shoot under the proverbial bus. Simply to protect the interests of a minority from increasing scrutiny. By the way, it won't work. RSPB, WJ et al are not morally opposed to lead, or pest shooting, or deer stalking - they are morally opposed to the annual release of tens of thousands of non-native, formally captive birds, held in place with feed and dogs to provide 'sport' shooting. Tell me, if releasing cage pigeons to the gun is so reprehensible as to be outlawed for years, what makes game shooting so acceptable? Is the lack of a wicker box or the size of the bank accounts of those that take part? No market for game? How do you explain the millions of birds that we export every year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 On 26/02/2020 at 19:11, rbrowning2 said: It needs a proper re assessment as I expect WJ hope the JR they have auctioned this week will achieve https://wildjustice.org.uk/general/wild-justice-seeks-judicial-review-of-gamebird-releases/ https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/feb/26/defra-challenged-over-unlawful-release-of-57m-game-birds-in-uk any positive from the press re the lead shot ban has very quickly been replaced by the above, then we have a council calling game shooting barbaric and university ending game shooting on its land. large estates have made game shooting into an industry to make big money and the conservation benefits are negligible and questionable like heather burning the whole business because it is a business is a failing business model in 2020. Conservation benefits are negligible? How do you come to that conclusion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 29 minutes ago, motty said: No market for game? How do you explain the millions of birds that we export every year? Millions of shot birds? Evidence for that claim please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 6 minutes ago, mick miller said: Millions of shot birds? Evidence for that claim please. You really need evidence for that? Have you never been to a game dealer? I must admit to not knowing the exact numbers, but seeing the enormous stacks of crates in just a couple of local dealers, they aren't selling just a few! One game dealer told me they regularly process 3000 pigeons per week. Do you also dispute that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 36 minutes ago, motty said: You really need evidence for that? Have you never been to a game dealer? I must admit to not knowing the exact numbers, but seeing the enormous stacks of crates in just a couple of local dealers, they aren't selling just a few! One game dealer told me they regularly process 3000 pigeons per week. Do you also dispute that? All of my Roe deer are exported to Germany. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 (edited) According to lord Geoffrey Dear Basc president in the basc magazine just received, the case that lead is toxic is well proven, if as it seems likely EU countries shortly ban the sale of game shot with lead then 70 per cent of game currently shot in the uk which is exported to the continent will not have a market, where will it then go, and how robust will be the argument that everything that we shoot goes into the food chain? Edited March 2, 2020 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, motty said: You really need evidence for that? Have you never been to a game dealer? I must admit to not knowing the exact numbers, but seeing the enormous stacks of crates in just a couple of local dealers, they aren't selling just a few! One game dealer told me they regularly process 3000 pigeons per week. Do you also dispute that? Fair enough, if that's coming from a game dealer that is way more reliable information than coming from BASC. I had guessed, wrongly, you were quoting the latter's figures. Edited March 2, 2020 by mick miller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry78 Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 Lead ban won’t cause me too much hassle if it comes in been using steel for years wildfowling never damaged any my guns I’ve been using It in the guns who shoot high pheasants might have a problem regarding chokes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, mick miller said: Fair enough, if that's coming from a game dealer that is way more reliable information than coming from BASC. I had guessed, wrongly, you were quoting the latter's figures. Mick You need to wait there is more to come out of this field. Have patience patience is a virtue. 2 minutes ago, Gerry78 said: Lead ban won’t cause me too much hassle if it comes in been using steel for years wildfowling never damaged any my guns I’ve been using It in the guns who shoot high pheasants might have a problem regarding chokes Chokes are no problem, its wads. But its early days somats will crop up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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