Lead ban & BASC

[oowee]

7 minutes ago, Piebob said:

I'm not sure it was quite like that.  I've heard that BASC informed some other organisations at the eleventh hour of the forthcoming release. The other orgs felt they had little option but to go along with it, showing solidarity.  I've no idea about the accuracy of that, but I've no reason to disbelieve 

So no knowledge of anything to do with the statement then? 

Each of the organisations is a free and independent agent. Nothing at all to suggest anything other than their full support for the voluntary proposal. 

[blankmag]

i feel let  really down by   basc BUT BUT BUT  we all new a lead ban was going to happen (WELL WE DID WE ALL NEW  IT WAS ON THE CARDS at some point ) FIVE YEARS TO SORT THE MESS OUT  . i think what ever we shoot in 12 ,16 ,20 ,28 and .410 we as shooters  GAME ,VERMIN ,PEST CONTROL  ECT  the cartridge manufacturers will come good . lets face it eley ,gamebore can find a solution to plastic eco plastic wads  fiber steel wads  wads the rest will follow .. FOR ONCE LETS BE ON THE FRONT FOOT BEST INTENTIONS ECT  lets defend our sport  . must admit 300 - 500 bird days will be the end of game shooting (how can you defend our sport to the general public at this level of birds killed ) weather thay shoot lead or non toxic . 

 

 

 

 

 

[spurs 14]

32 minutes ago, wymberley said:

It's been mentioned more than once now. As the government are the only people who can initiate a ban, when taking into account manufacturing, supply chains, etc, etc how would this overnight ban be implemented?

Wasn’t it the government that pulled the general license under public pressure , wasn’t it the government that banned the sale of leaded petrol , wasn’t it a government decision to ban lead shot for wild fowling , then surely it would be a government body that decides a ban on lead shot would come in , all I’m trying to say is surely it’s better to do it voluntarily now get a four year breathing space and give manufacturers time to develop new and different alternatives , my understanding is that for clay shooters there is no change just those of us who shoot game , I think this is the right decision rather than everyone fighting it then suddenly ,bang  , a ban appears and there’s still no range of alternatives 

[Piebob]

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

So no knowledge of anything to do with the statement then? 

Each of the organisations is a free and independent agent. Nothing at all to suggest anything other than their full support for the voluntary proposal. 

Did any of the other organisations consult with their members?  Did they provide any hints or kind of "heads up"? Did they carry out surveys? Did they socialise the idea that it was coming? 

It makes no sense for any organisation to alienate vast numbers of their members/supporters, just has been done this week.

[spurs 14]

This has been talked about for ages , a lot of people angry that there is change , no one likes change ! If they had done the surveys , the talks , the hear the opinions it would be as now  divided , we would be arguing , fighting , demanding that basc fight tooth and nail to stop the lead ban , and for what it’s a fight we couldn’t win ! And we know it just won’t admit it , they have done the next best option given a time frame where we can still shoot as now but given manufacturers time to develop new products , we should try to stop all the in house arguing and all stand up together 

[blankmag]

well said 

[Smokersmith]

👍

[wymberley]

23 minutes ago, Piebob said:

I'm not sure it was quite like that.  I've heard that BASC informed some other organisations at the eleventh hour of the forthcoming release. The other orgs felt they had little option but to go along with it, showing solidarity.  I've no idea about the accuracy of that, but I've no reason to disbelieve it.

The last thing that I want to do is get tanged up in another conspiratory theory - I've got enough trouble with a genuine one of my own - but I have to admit that I'm a bit confused. I asked this question of all of the organisations:

"Conor O'Gorman,

I would imagine that your FAQ post is representative of the views of all of the organisations involved in the current discussion. From your list, it certainly looks as though everything in the garden will be coming up roses. To give a balanced view, could you go again on behalf of the organisations and produce a list of the disadvantages that may well be inherent and any financial implications which may result from your action. Given both sides of the coin, members of all the group organisations can then assess the situation as opposed to the possibility of simply being force fed the one aspect. I only post in the knowledge that nothing in this world is either perfect or exactly as it would appear.

Many thanks."

I have received one of the PMs that Mr O'Gorman mentions above. To validate my question - if I still wish to ask it - I have to contact him at BASC giving either my Post Code or BASC membership number and repeat the question - I assume that the Post Code would give access to my membership details. Why? I am speaking to the group of organisations as a whole and I am no longer a member of BASC, but the NGO. Therefore as a member of one of the organisations involved that fact alone is sufficient to merit a response. Or am I just speaking to BASC? I ask because I do not believe that all organisations would be in total agreement across the board and the answers given by just one may well be misleading.

[wymberley]

31 minutes ago, spurs 14 said:

Wasn’t it the government that pulled the general license under public pressure , wasn’t it the government that banned the sale of leaded petrol , wasn’t it a government decision to ban lead shot for wild fowling , then surely it would be a government body that decides a ban on lead shot would come in , all I’m trying to say is surely it’s better to do it voluntarily now get a four year breathing space and give manufacturers time to develop new and different alternatives , my understanding is that for clay shooters there is no change just those of us who shoot game , I think this is the right decision rather than everyone fighting it then suddenly ,bang  , a ban appears and there’s still no range of alternatives 

Yep, OK.

[rbrowning2]

5 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Does the plastic in ITM/HW13/HW15 count as single use?

Yes they are not biodegradable, I guess you could always  pick them up after the shoot wash them and reuse them lol

Current state of biodegradable wads is;

the cardboard cups sold by CG.
the wads Bioammo are making to use in their own cartridges in Spain,  as released as the recent shooting show. 
the water soluble wads eley and Rio are now using, again made in Spain by a plastic company.

Only the cardboard cups are at this time available to home loaders and all I think are only 12gauge.

control the wads control the price of cartridges, we have moved from a position of lots of price competition due to lots of manufactures to that of three.
 

Edited February 26, 2020 by rbrowning2

[Scully]

6 minutes ago, wymberley said:

The last thing that I want to do is get tanged up in another conspiratory theory - I've got enough trouble with a genuine one of my own - but I have to admit that I'm a bit confused. I asked this question of all of the organisations:

"Conor O'Gorman,

I would imagine that your FAQ post is representative of the views of all of the organisations involved in the current discussion. From your list, it certainly looks as though everything in the garden will be coming up roses. To give a balanced view, could you go again on behalf of the organisations and produce a list of the disadvantages that may well be inherent and any financial implications which may result from your action. Given both sides of the coin, members of all the group organisations can then assess the situation as opposed to the possibility of simply being force fed the one aspect. I only post in the knowledge that nothing in this world is either perfect or exactly as it would appear.

Many thanks."

I have received one of the PMs that Mr O'Gorman mentions above. To validate my question - if I still wish to ask it - I have to contact him at BASC giving either my Post Code or BASC membership number and repeat the question - I assume that the Post Code would give access to my membership details. Why? I am speaking to the group of organisations as a whole and I am no longer a member of BASC, but the NGO. Therefore as a member of one of the organisations involved that fact alone is sufficient to merit a response. Or am I just speaking to BASC? I ask because I do not believe that all organisations would be in total agreement across the board and the answers given by just one may well be misleading.

I contacted the NGO several times yesterday, and first received in response, the response which has been submitted by all, and indeed was the basis ( almost verbatim ) given on the YouTube video by TSG. There were also links to the science regarding lead shot toxicity, which I was already familiar with. 

[rbrowning2]

39 minutes ago, spurs 14 said:

Wasn’t it the government that pulled the general license under public pressure , wasn’t it the government that banned the sale of leaded petrol , wasn’t it a government decision to ban lead shot for wild fowling , then surely it would be a government body that decides a ban on lead shot would come in , all I’m trying to say is surely it’s better to do it voluntarily now get a four year breathing space and give manufacturers time to develop new and different alternatives , my understanding is that for clay shooters there is no change just those of us who shoot game , I think this is the right decision rather than everyone fighting it then suddenly ,bang  , a ban appears and there’s still no range of alternatives 

Sincerely hope this how it works out, but the big risk now is that the shooting  organisations have now made it very easy to implement a total lead shot ban, why? The EU is expected to implement a ban very soon or after the voluntary transition period people carry on using lead to shot game using say a number 7 shot clay cartridge, then the government turn round and again implement a total lead shot ban.
All current steel shot cartridges with biodegradable wads which is what we are being asked to use are considerably more expensive than with lead or normal steel cartridges so we urgently need to see this returned to parity and not just for 12gauge.

The future is far from certain.

 

[lancer425]

On 26/02/2020 at 21:47, spurs 14 said:

This has been talked about for ages , a lot of people angry that there is change , no one likes change ! If they had done the surveys , the talks , the hear the opinions it would be as now  divided , we would be arguing , fighting , demanding that basc fight tooth and nail to stop the lead ban , and for what it’s a fight we couldn’t win ! And we know it just won’t admit it , they have done the next best option given a time frame where we can still shoot as now but given manufacturers time to develop new products , we should try to stop all the in house arguing and all stand up together 

Sadly this is not the way with shooters, we should really bond and bond so firmly.   But it has been my bitter experience this is rare. BASC bashing is rife and quite frustrating. This whole vaulantry Lead ban/ plaswad appeal by the orgs should be a rallying call but no. We get winging moaning and mostly aimed at bASC despite being JUST ONE organisation. ITS BASC the Bad dog .

He gets blamed  if he ***** or not that dog does.

As you say we had no chance of keeping lead this is the way to go and i feel that in the fullness of time even the moaners will see it was/ is a good idea given our changing world. . 

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

 

control the wads control the price of cartridges, we have moved from a position of lots of price competition due to lots of manufactures to that of three.
 

AFAIK We are not quite a fortnight into this voluntary advice thats from first hints rumours  of it coming to right now.  I do not think we have exactly given the industry time to metaphorically scratch their heads on this subject yet. never mind give it a thick coat of looking at. Where we are right now tonight is just not a problem.  Its not law, we can use whatis  there what we have legally.

  WJ etc are seeing it as a victory, but its Our victory our representative orgs gained that for us.  In making this move we are in control now, for WJ to try and rush past this and get a law in place to trounce our win here would be nothing short of a miracle, we have laid out our stall are now seen to be supporting change, and as such its going to be difficult to run across our grass now crowd funded or not.

New wads will become available and at more realistic prices. We just need to be patient and stop panicking.

[clangerman]

23 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Sadly this is not the way with shooters, we should really bond and bond so firmly.   But it has been my bitter experience this is rare. BASC bashing is rife and quite frustrating. This whole vaulantry Lead ban/ plaswad appeal by the orgs should be a rallying call but no. We get winging moaning and mostly aimed at bASC despite being JUST ONE organisation. ITS BASC the Bad dog .

He gets blamed  if he Shi** or not that dog does.

As you say we had no chance of keeping lead this is the way to go and i feel that in the fullness of time even the moaners will see it was/ is a good idea given our changing world. . 

personally i think all the organisations are at fault a decision of this magnitude should have been made by farmers because nobody can deny farmers would put anything above their own livelihood and the first concern should have been the plastic which is a far bigger pollutant than lead ever will be so how come plastic was not the first concern there was every reason to tackle plastic first it’s the most polluting we have paper to replace it joe public has major worries about plastic the pr from a ban on plastic would have been fantastic for us so what possible reason would we ban lead first for when the clear choice was plastic 

[ClemFandango]

20 hours ago, Old farrier said:

That’s handy I can start practicing pity they don’t make 2.1/2 inch steel cartridges with a degradable wad 

you could always homeload. 

Or just wait until they do. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

7 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Yes they are not biodegradable, I guess you could always  pick them up after the shoot wash them and reuse them lol

Current state of biodegradable wads is;

the cardboard cups sold by CG.
the wads Bioammo are making to use in their own cartridges in Spain,  as released as the recent shooting show. 
the water soluble wads eley and Rio are now using, again made in Spain by a plastic company.

Only the cardboard cups are at this time available to home loaders and all I think are only 12gauge.

control the wads control the price of cartridges, we have moved from a position of lots of price competition due to lots of manufactures to that of three.
 

One or more of the cartridge manufacturers will grasp the oportunity to provide suitable cartridges for 12 gauge users and then if the requirement is there the smaller bores will follow on.

 

The production of cartridges for damascus barrelled guns will probably never be financially viable due to the small volume and it would fall to component manufacturerrs to fill the gap for homeloaders if there was sufficient demand.

 

For the smaller gauges it would all depend upon demand as no firm will invest in this unless they are confident of good sales volumes.  

[mick miller]

8 hours ago, Piebob said:

Did any of the other organisations consult with their members?  Did they provide any hints or kind of "heads up"? Did they carry out surveys? Did they socialise the idea that it was coming? 

It makes no sense for any organisation to alienate vast numbers of their members/supporters, just has been done this week.

Correct. 

[Smokersmith]

It’s a 5 year heads up.

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

It’s a 5 year heads up.

This /\

I have to admit ...... the way this came out - initially by rumour, then public announcement before anything to paying members seemed 'insensitive' and in a way, still does.  However, it is difficult to see how other ways could have been done without lots of upsets along the lines of the organisations 'not consulting', or 'consulting then ignoring' and the like.

None of us like change, especially when the mitigations aren't clear, and some of our treasured possessions and valued activities are involved.  However, a lead ban has been on the cards for some time - via the EU.  Banning is how the EU operates, whether it is high powered vacuum cleaners, chlorine washed chicken, lead shot.  That is how their core 'single market' is underpinned.  They are a big heavily regulated organisation that basically doesn't have to listen to its public.

Realistically - we were always going to have to conform, whether in or out of the EU.  Likewise with plastic, though the technical and implementation aspects were easier with lead (fibre wads and collect/recycle spent cases).

So, the cartridge industry has 5 years to come up with sensibly priced alternatives in steel/iron (or whatever) and wad/case materials.  The manufacturer(s) who get this right should gain market share.

Personally I won't be cancelling any organisation membership, rushing to sell off my 'non lead' guns, or any other knee jerk reaction.  I'm going to continue 'as now' and see what suitable products emerge over the 5 year period - and give those that look promising a fair trial.

[Old farrier]

4 hours ago, ClemFandango said:

you could always homeload. 

Or just wait until they do. 

I will as soon as a biodegradable wad is available unless you know of a suitable one 

as for waiting that could be 5 years

Edited February 27, 2020 by Old farrier

[mick miller]

Literally cannot wait for my MRI scan after ingesting steel shot game. Shouldn't be an issue, provided it doesn't hit an artery on the way out.

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, mick miller said:

after ingesting steel shot game.

It isn't a new problem.  Steel shot has been used for some 'edible' game such as wildfowl for some considerable time - and is widely used elsewhere in the world.

[mick miller]

It isn't a problem? Really? Find a magnet.

I suppose you can simply decline to have an MRI.

Edited February 27, 2020 by mick miller

[Smokersmith]

8 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Literally cannot wait for my MRI scan after ingesting steel shot game. Shouldn't be an issue, provided it doesn't hit an artery on the way out.

It should come out of your ***.