Lead ban & BASC

[Perazzishot]

8 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC is owned by its members, including me and you. If 1% of members sign up then a Special General Meeting will be feasible. I have outlined this in emails to you and any other BASC members that have contacted me.

Conor would it upset you and BASC if I posted the document sent to the ECHA on 23/12/19 where BASC supported the submission not to ban lead. The details and severity of doing so on all shooters in Europe especially the UK. And the consequences of using the current alternatives?

 

[PeterHenry]

19 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC is owned by its members, including me and you. If 1% of members sign up then a Special General Meeting will be feasible. I have outlined this in emails to you and any other BASC members that have contacted me.

Hi Conor,

I'm a BASC member and will provide you with my membership number by PM if you wish.

 

Perhaps though, you can answer my previous question - did or did not BASC initiate the group statement?

 

I have nothing against you personally - you have been nothing but helpful on the occasion or two I have had to call BASC for advice, however, as i was told by someone that someone would call me back to discuss this debacle when i phoned on Friday, and as yet they have not - I'd  appreciate an answer.

 

Best,

 

Peter

Edited February 29, 2020 by PeterHenry

[rbrowning2]

2 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

Conor would it upset you and BASC if I posted the document sent to the ECHA on 23/12/19 where BASC supported the submission not to ban lead. The details and severity of doing so on all shooters in Europe especially the UK. And the consequences of using the current alternatives?

 

Perrazzishot, you need no ones permission to post a document we live in a free country why should basc be upset?  The truth will out anyway this is now like when basc kept refusing to publish their qc advice regarding the medical reporting what are basc some sort of secret organisation accountable to nobody but themselves? Certainly it looks that we the members do not count. 

 

[scolopax]

what I find quite amusing is that the wildfowlers, generally a bolshie militant argumentative lot at best, have the attitude to this of "just get on with it, nothing to be scared of, steel works".  We may think it could have been handled better, but it is no big deal. It is a voluntary phasing out of lead and introduction of non toxic shot, something we are all perfectly familiar with and happy enough to use. Do not get me wrong, many wildfowlers would prefer to lead, especially the old big bore users, but few would deny non toxic shot will do the job required of it. The elimination of lead from shotgun shooting was always going to be a hard sell, if not impossible, to most association members, so consultation would be a waste of time. Likewise the cartridge manufacturers were never going to jump for joy at the prospect of re tooling, R&D expense etc. So as far as I see it BASC et al made the decision to just grab the bull by the horns and get on with it, it will ruffle lots of feathers but they want to see us very close to lead and plastic free within five years so did it. I only trust they have very good reasons for doing so.

 

[rbrowning2]

1 minute ago, scolopax said:

what I find quite amusing is that the wildfowlers, generally a bolshie militant argumentative lot at best, have the attitude to this of "just get on with it, nothing to be scared of, steel works".  We may think it could have been handled better, but it is no big deal. It is a voluntary phasing out of lead and introduction of non toxic shot, something we are all perfectly familiar with and happy enough to use. Do not get me wrong, many wildfowlers would prefer to lead, especially the old big bore users, but few would deny non toxic shot will do the job required of it. The elimination of lead from shotgun shooting was always going to be a hard sell, if not impossible, to most association members, so consultation would be a waste of time. Likewise the cartridge manufacturers were never going to jump for joy at the prospect of re tooling, R&D expense etc. So as far as I see it BASC et al made the decision to just grab the bull by the horns and get on with it, it will ruffle lots of feathers but they want to see us very close to lead and plastic free within five years so did it. I only trust they have very good reasons for doing so.

 

Nothing wrong with that if that’s the case so why will they not explain, why now, why they did not ask the leading uk cartridge manufactures opinion, what funding if any they basc have secured to help the cartridge manufacture implement the five year plan, do they even have a five year plan, was a task group or committee set up bringing all the stake holders together to produce an agree a plan to deliver the five year transition. Etc etc. No business would proceed with such a project without such planing and key dates and a project leader. 

[lancer425]

9 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

My current understanding for the sort of load I think I need is 'thought through' like this;

I currently use either 26 or 28g of No 6 lead from a 2 1/2" cartridge with fibre wads.  I am happy it suits what I do.

The drivers for me are:

1. Must be 2 1/2" compatible (because that is how the guns are chambered)
2. Must be fibre wad (because that is mandated by the landlords who have sheep and cattle and I doubt will be prepared to wait for bio degradeable plastic to degrade).
3. Should be ideally similar in both recoil and striking energy/range to current loads with my less than 1/2 choke guns (mostly improved and quarter).  Some range reduction can be tolerated

I think what I will need is something like:

• 28 or 30g of No 4 steel (because No 4 seems to be both suitable with fibre/card wads and have adequate striking energy)
• Fibre/card type 'enclosing' wad to protect the barrel
• A little 'common sense' in using at ranges at which it proves capable (this may need a bit of a learning curve)

My current understanding is that there are fibre/card wads (don't ask where from, because I don't know, but I have heard that to be the case) that exist to meet this requirement and they are OK with shot sizes 4 and smaller, but larger shot can punch through them.  I don't believe any commercial load is yet available.  These can be loaded in 2 1/2" cases and within current proof pressures.  They are generally thought to be a little more restricted in range, but given some good old common sense, I can live with that.

What I don't know is;

1. whether such a load will be made available commercially (but suspect it will because the demand will be there)
2. What the concerns over steel for forestry will be
3. What the concerns over ricochets for shooting in woods will be

I am prepared to await developments - some of which I hope will run along the lines above.  I will check any proposed new type with a suitable 'authority' as in a gunmaker or reliable published article, then subject to that being OK I will then try some (patterns, field use etc.) and see what happens.

You need these.

https://www.claygame.co.uk/12ga-cheddite-65mm-new-cases-pd98

Some of this. Or some other of your choice.

https://www.claygame.co.uk/1lb-alliant-steel-pd24

these

https://www.claygame.co.uk/12ga-fibre-shot-cups-34mm-38mm-and-55mm-pd82

these

https://www.claygame.co.uk/12ga-waxed-nitro-cards-pd142

You need a seal really . but op card.

some of this.

https://www.claygame.co.uk/steel-shot-pd6

one of these or better how deep are your pockets.  you could rto but need a drill its ok but . .. get a press.

cheap work ok.

https://www.claygame.co.uk/lee-load-all-ii-pd385

You need a set of scales but could not find any on that site. No idea how they sell anything on there what an awkward place to navigate i navigated across Mongolia easier than that.

 

[clangerman]

11 minutes ago, scolopax said:

what I find quite amusing is that the wildfowlers, generally a bolshie militant argumentative lot at best, have the attitude to this of "just get on with it, nothing to be scared of, steel works".  We may think it could have been handled better, but it is no big deal. It is a voluntary phasing out of lead and introduction of non toxic shot, something we are all perfectly familiar with and happy enough to use. Do not get me wrong, many wildfowlers would prefer to lead, especially the old big bore users, but few would deny non toxic shot will do the job required of it. The elimination of lead from shotgun shooting was always going to be a hard sell, if not impossible, to most association members, so consultation would be a waste of time. Likewise the cartridge manufacturers were never going to jump for joy at the prospect of re tooling, R&D expense etc. So as far as I see it BASC et al made the decision to just grab the bull by the horns and get on with it, it will ruffle lots of feathers but they want to see us very close to lead and plastic free within five years so did it. I only trust they have very good reasons for doing so.

 

if it’s no big deal they would be on here explaining why they have been so incompetent now people have seen they couldn’t train water to run downhill we look like a bunch of half wits who gave a child a sharp knife and said go play 

[Saltings]

 threw some steel shot away a few days ago as from this season a solid rusted lump    running pretty hot    imagine the damage next season on the foreshore if not noticed

steel shot must be stored properly from manufacture all the way a boom    lead no such problems    manufacturers can store stuff for years as they run in batches of many thousands at a time   non toxics are not the only answer   lead shot can be more efficient      however not much lead in commercial shot these days a lot of junk metals   true lead shot deforms and is slow     modern day looks the same before and after when taken from a carcase    if you  pigeon shoot  how many times have you hit a pigeon  a ball of feathers in the air only to fly on sit in a tree for a few min fall out dead     dress it out and be drilled through like a pepper pot     soft shot kills better     I can remember  shooting game with gran prix  and biting into shot spit out and flatten on a plate with the back of your fork         bite into shot these days  its a dentist trip and a bill 

[JohnfromUK]

9 hours ago, lancer425 said:

You need these.

Thank you for the detailed and comprehensive list.  It shows there is a way forward.  At present, I'll be sitting on my hands (and wallet) to see what emerges commercially, but it is very good to have a sensible fallback plan, which this list does.

[lancer425]

9 hours ago, clangerman said:

if it’s no big deal they would be on here explaining why they have been so incompetent now people have seen they couldn’t train water to run downhill we look like a bunch of half wits who gave a child a sharp knife and said go play 

No they would not . They issued the details of this voluntary NOTE! "VOLUNTARY" ban on lead in live quarry. , there was something amiss with the orgs and the cartridge firms.

Not sure what exactly and not bothered anyway.

Meanwhile back at the ranch Tonto has two practical options how i see it.  !. DO nothing Ignore all this completely. or 2.  for the moment try and comply as much as they can.   Now as it is right here and now we got silver steel "MAYBE" or these eley bio wad loads. "I THINK".  SO nothing is certain yet. so Use up your lead, and try a few boxes of steel with these plaswads because at least the birds shipped into dealers will be full of steel not lead.   This way you are at least hitting thwe main issue and the only thing you can do anyway at the moment.

If we get a big enough move from Lead"I ndoubt this" we might be able to push the cartridge firms into making inroads into newer wad tech, that can give this a chance of working.

Wads are the key to all this. coupled slightly with the restrictive CIP rules.

The cartridge firms statement friday was just snivelling and greedy.

The cip rules they have a point, but they have no option but to develop wads, The sticky greedy little palm thrust out for Money to invest in wads is just typical of the UK cartridge firms as a whole.

 Do you know what?  I do not think this problem will be solved by any uk cartridge company not even the mighty eley with its maxan / uee/ rio conection. it will come from either the states or B&P / RC ? Nobel sport or one of the big Scandinavian wad firms " No idea what they call them now ex helarco vargner etc. " . And my money is on the latter. OR good old Winchester. YOMV.

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

Thank you for the detailed and comprehensive list.  It shows there is a way forward.  At present, I'll be sitting on my hands (and wallet) to see what emerges commercially, but it is very good to have a sensible fallback plan, which this list does.

As it is now all you can do at the mo is either carry on, or Reload. for 65mms. No other option. It is like vif you reload you either go card cups or just go say B&P 24 to load 7/8 or 15/16 oz loads. At least that way your bitds are useable in the game dealers.

They got to get some wads sorted out its that simple.

[wymberley]

26 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

No they would not . They issued the details of this voluntary NOTE! "VOLUNTARY" ban on lead in live quarry. , there was something amiss with the orgs and the cartridge firms.

Not sure what exactly and not bothered anyway.

Meanwhile back at the ranch Tonto has two practical options how i see it.  !. DO nothing Ignore all this completely. or 2.  for the moment try and comply as much as they can.   Now as it is right here and now we got silver steel "MAYBE" or these eley bio wad loads. "I THINK".  SO nothing is certain yet. so Use up your lead, and try a few boxes of steel with these plaswads because at least the birds shipped into dealers will be full of steel not lead.   This way you are at least hitting thwe main issue and the only thing you can do anyway at the moment.

If we get a big enough move from Lead"I ndoubt this" we might be able to push the cartridge firms into making inroads into newer wad tech, that can give this a chance of working.

Wads are the key to all this. coupled slightly with the restrictive CIP rules.

The cartridge firms statement friday was just snivelling and greedy.

The cip rules they have a point, but they have no option but to develop wads, The sticky greedy little palm thrust out for Money to invest in wads is just typical of the UK cartridge firms as a whole.

 Do you know what?  I do not think this problem will be solved by any uk cartridge company not even the mighty eley with its maxan / uee/ rio conection. it will come from either the states or B&P / RC ? Nobel sport or one of the big Scandinavian wad firms " No idea what they call them now ex helarco vargner etc. " . And my money is on the latter. OR good old Winchester. YOMV.

As it is now all you can do at the mo is either carry on, or Reload. for 65mms. No other option. It is like vif you reload you either go card cups or just go say B&P 24 to load 7/8 or 15/16 oz loads. At least that way your bitds are useable in the game dealers.

They got to get some wads sorted out its that simple.

Aah! You Ke-mo sah-bee

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Aah! You Ke-mo sah-bee

No iam the horses ****. Be careful i got my back to you right now.

[figgy]

So the 21)2" chambered guns will become obsolete. No manufactured cartridges for it.

Steel kicks more than lead carts of the same weight. I have shoulder and neck damage so feel recoil more than most.

[dodgy dave]

do you think you will be too old to shoot in five years time

[bluesj]

As far as I see it basc have screwed up big time. Not in the idea behind getting rid of lead and plastic but by not asking the people that actually know what they are talking about if it is possible and in what time frame, they could then have gone to the government and pushed for changes in the regulation to be able to make a cartridge that can kill as well as lead.

Then you get a couple of dangerous  idiots put up a video of the make a hand full of cartridges out of some that you can't get here anyway through what is going to be a pretty tough shotgun and tell everyone that all is ok with steel shot and no protective wad! I'd like to see them put another few thousand through and the see if there is no damage!

[lancer425]

5 minutes ago, figgy said:

So the 21)2" chambered guns will become obsolete. No manufactured cartridges for it.

Steel kicks more than lead carts of the same weight. I have shoulder and neck damage so feel recoil more than most.

No they are not making any 2.5 inch AFAIK. So its reload.

And no steel does not kick any more than lead in fact the heavier lead loads typical kick more than any steel load ever could.

The cushioning effect on Lead wads was to help soft lead get through the internal ballistics as undeformed as possible. This did help a little with recoil and was an oft advertised fact back in the early days of plaswads, but in reality the recoil as in felt recoil was much the same for cartridges of similar payload and velocity.

 Now what can contribute to more felt recoil is the nature of the gun and the powder, as in semi autos spreading out the bump if you like making the "KICK" feel less, than say a typical o/u or even a pump for example.

Powder is often the reason some steel loads feel to kick more, many factory loads use less progressive powders than ideal, and these powders can be fierce in the heavier loads.

 Even with a more progressive powder speed need not suffer and often relatively large charges of powder say when compared to smaller powder charges of less progresive powders will not recoil too bad at all.

 A case in question is some high velocity reloads in steel, these can use mid 30s to 40 grains of progressive powder, with 1650fps to 1750 fps velocity on around 15/16 oz loads.  The powders progressive nature can help mask the fact more velocity is  involved. it is all about balancing the factors involved, rather than just the shot type alone. 

[wymberley]

48 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

No iam the horses ****. Be careful i got my back to you right now.

Proper job. 

Being quite deaf and provided that you're quick on your toes that can have its advantages. Your last post as I write is a good example of this.

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, bluesj said:

As far as I see it basc have screwed up big time. Not in the idea behind getting rid of lead and plastic but by not asking the people that actually know what they are talking about if it is possible and in what time frame, they could then have gone to the government and pushed for changes in the regulation to be able to make a cartridge that can kill as well as lead.

Then you get a couple of dangerous  idiots put up a video of the make a hand full of cartridges out of some that you can't get here anyway through what is going to be a pretty tough shotgun and tell everyone that all is ok with steel shot and no protective wad! I'd like to see them put another few thousand through and the see if there is no damage!

The shooting orgs idea was a good one the fact they allegedly "I DO not trust the cartridge firms" made zero comunication with the cartridge firms is not ideal but so what.   The winging stick our sticky little palms out for develpopment money tear jerker on friday belongs on eastenders.

 they are right about CIP agree and why most fowlers reload if they want the full potential of these shot types.   We need to get on with what we can and when we can to try and comply with our orgs sugestion. go out try some steel on your pigeon rabbits whatever, see what its doing. look at the patterns, if that steel is plaswad for now or not, at least its doing as much as you practicaly do for a start.

 its all voluntary sefully in the not too distant future.till use up your lead if you have some, and await more readily available loads and wads hopefully in the not too distant future.

There is no mileage looking for a blaming post in basc or anywhere. just pick up this gauntlet and go with it, it is a transition and will if taken up by most of us smooth the path for the transition from lead.  if we are not buying any ammo of these greedy cartridge firms, they got to make inroads or go under. Keep buying lead we are screwed, they will keep banking your money spend nothing and when the ban eventually comes them, you are going to feel the cold then aright.

[JohnfromUK]

49 minutes ago, figgy said:

So the 21)2" chambered guns will become obsolete. No manufactured cartridges for it.

I strongly suspect that a compatible cartridge will become available.  There is sufficient demand of most if not all manufacturers to offer 2 1/2" in lead, so it is likely that much of the demand will be there for a steel equivalent.  I understand that some have been tested in the past, but to date only with plastic wads - and these didn't go into production.  If the demand is there (and I believe it is) - someone will offer something.

[bluesj]

6 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

The shooting orgs idea was a good one the fact they allegedly "I DO not trust the cartridge firms" made zero comunication with the cartridge firms is not ideal but so what.   The winging stick our sticky little palms out for develpopment money tear jerker on friday belongs on eastenders.

 they are right about CIP agree and why most fowlers reload if they want the full potential of these shot types.   We need to get on with what we can and when we can to try and comply with our orgs sugestion. go out try some steel on your pigeon rabbits whatever, see what its doing. look at the patterns, if that steel is plaswad for now or not, at least its doing as much as you practicaly do for a start.

 its all voluntary sefully in the not too distant future.till use up your lead if you have some, and await more readily available loads and wads hopefully in the not too distant future.

There is no mileage looking for a blaming post in basc or anywhere. just pick up this gauntlet and go with it, it is a transition and will if taken up by most of us smooth the path for the transition from lead.  if we are not buying any ammo of these greedy cartridge firms, they got to make inroads or go under. Keep buying lead we are screwed, they will keep banking your money spend nothing and when the ban eventually comes them, you are going to feel the cold then aright.

The problem with that is someone is going to have to pay for it, do you want to pay the full cost? The cartridge makers make cartridges and it would be almost impossible for the to do the research and development  on cases and wad materials them selves they would have to go out to other companies to see if the make a product that could be adapted to be use for cartridges and it all takes time. 

What is worse for the environment plastic or lead? I've tried both standard and hp steel, nether seemed to carry the energy of similarly loaded lead (in a very non scientific test). The hp steel wasn't too bad and had I tried different brands loads etc I would have probably found something as good as the lead but there steel isn't that easy to find around here at the moment. plus only one of my guns is steel proofed and most of the places I shoot have ask that I don't use plastic wads.

I agree with the idea of getting rid of plastic and some lead (I wouldn't be happy using steel for humane dispatch! not looked at bismuth etc) and would be happy to try anything but I think it would have been better to try to get manufacture's and shooters on side first.  

[grahamch]

Seems a bit of a pre-occupation with 2.5 inch guns. 

Surely there cant be huge numbers still used?

Edited March 1, 2020 by grahamch

[lancer425]

6 minutes ago, bluesj said:

The problem with that is someone is going to have to pay for it, do you want to pay the full cost? The cartridge makers make cartridges and it would be almost impossible for the to do the research and development  on cases and wad materials them selves they would have to go out to other companies to see if the make a product that could be adapted to be use for cartridges and it all takes time. 

What is worse for the environment plastic or lead? I've tried both standard and hp steel, nether seemed to carry the energy of similarly loaded lead (in a very non scientific test). The hp steel wasn't too bad and had I tried different brands loads etc I would have probably found something as good as the lead but there steel isn't that easy to find around here at the moment. plus only one of my guns is steel proofed and most of the places I shoot have ask that I don't use plastic wads.

I agree with the idea of getting rid of plastic and some lead (I wouldn't be happy using steel for humane dispatch! not looked at bismuth etc) and would be happy to try anything but I think it would have been better to try to get manufacture's and shooters on side first.  

If we stop buying off them, buy in components SIARM and from the new trade deal trumpland, they are going to have to get their hands in their pocket at some point. they are not poverty stricken peasant like us. if the price is tacked on and its too much just walk straight past buy elsewhere, they just assemble stuff here anyway, rio maxam are the only true all in house outfit, all the rest are just assemblers. you can assemble them yourselves and get real full performance ammo today, not eventually like buying off these parasites.

 UK cartridges i do not think will come up with the goods, i think its wad makers or Winchester who will come up with the right stuff first . Gamebore might just swing it, but that will be driven from the other side of the Atlantic not hull based assembly .  Remember the whole world will be facing this not just us we are on it though and rightly so first up best dressed.

,

[wymberley]

7 minutes ago, grahamch said:

Seems a bit of a pre-occupation with 2.5 inch guns. 

Surely there cant be huge numbers still used?

I would imagine you'd have to define "huge", Graham. Nice English examples are still selling and there just has to be many family owned examples which have never seen the light of day in any RFDs' store since the day they were first sold. One indication will be cost of the cartridges. If they're still made in quantities that do not attract an unfavourable supply and demand price-break, then it's likely that there are.

[lancer425]

13 minutes ago, grahamch said:

Seems a bit of a pre-occupation with 2.5 inch guns. 

Surely there cant be huge numbers still used?

There are a few about, and i supose if you like the one you got, it is a factor. My mate "A Wildfowler" has a manufrance robust in 2.5 inch  BLNE. he has tens auto 12s and an 8 but he uses that manufrance more times than any other, he swears by it.

[enfieldspares]

Quote

In a toss up between lead shot and big bag, commercial game shooting I'd rather see the demise of commercial game shooting myself. No one here (on this farm) sells game to the EU, everyone takes them home and eats them themselves. Mind you, they also don't expect to be able to blatt hundreds of birds from the sky with a loader beside them, all in the name of 'sport'. I can see who BASC et al clearly favour with their choices and it isn't the air rifle shooter, deer stalker, target shooter, clay shooter, pigeon shooter, vermin shooter, practical shotgun shooter or small walked up game shooter...

Oh, the glorious twelfth will soon be here again, now where did I put my branded Schoffel gilet and the keys to my Range Rover?

I don't see that the OP of the above has any sort pf chip on his shoulder. he is merely stating the bloomin' obvious that this ban is motivated by the belief that if the "bog bag" boys lose the ability to sell on dead pheasants shot with lead that any justification that what is shot isn't wasted but becomes food fails.

I have personally shot two hundred plus bird days, and my late father in season shot twice a week at Woburn Abbey and also at Kedleston Hall, and until a couple of years ago I owned and sometimes shot a pair of 16 bore single trigger SLE self-openers. I'm now down my main game gun being a single 12 bore Boss SLE. And, yes, have shot driven grouse. So I'll treat any riposte of chips on shoulders as BS.

I agree totally with the OP. The simple solution would have been for those "big bag" boys to insist that guns use non-toxic shot and that a certified "lead free" labelling for game shot with no toxic shot was initiated like the "Red Tractor" scheme. 

Yet rather than get their own house in order a solve the problem by that means they have thrown everybody else under the bus. Where is the issue where shot game is retained for personal consumption of the "hunter" and does not enter the food chain?

Edited March 1, 2020 by enfieldspares