Lead ban & BASC

[clangerman]

2 hours ago, lancer425 said:

What you are saying is that BASC and all those other orgs got together , one morning, and decided "i know why dont we ban lead shot, , we will upset a great many of our members if we do that"   " YAY"  " yes lets do that, oh and i have a good one lets not consult them that will upset some of them even MORE"   Doubly "YAY".   HO HO Ho " I can beat that"  "go on then",. "we can not mention any of this to the uk cartridge firms that will upset not only more members but the cartridge companies too" .

 OH! Go to the top of the class that man . " now we can look at loosing our jobs in an all too meagre jobs market in a struggling post brexit uk , jobs climate.  " YAY great idea lets go for that one".     Go on tell me i have led a sheltered life if you want, but i do not think that is quite what happened do you. ? Answers on a post card.

   I think even this  a more realistic version goes something like this. The orgs release the statement jointly .

 Cartridge firms see it and did not have a clue how to respond, It they had NO communication as they claim they would not have waited days to respond would you. ?

I think this is a more likely scenario. ELEY full of the joys of spring about their BIO wad Johny and nick horten testing it out etc. Were puffing their feathers out at a meeting where vthe orgs were some time ago. and cedric from eley. got a bit carried away with the after dinner mints, this coupled with the pastry on the old buffet table was giving him jip big style.

One or more of the orgs questioned Cedric " hey Cedric my old budy my old chum"  " you can deliver on this old chap "?   Cedric Put on the spot his recent oratory boasts, his acid indigestion the Lure of Donna from accounts alluring bust line coupled with the fact she is waving a full bottle of gaviscon at him how could  Cedric resist.  his Short reply " OH yes of course we can". seals the deal the orgs are on. 

 Brush up on a few of the old finer points looks good to me lets go "cunning plan under way" Steal the march on WJ in our own time. prompt change and a nice smooth transition.

 NOW we get the cartridge companies response, first they look at what happened. express ring bontoft ave why nobody to sure.  Well what are we going to do.  "as anybody actually emailed this to the orgs. " "NO"   "NO"?. Thats it lets go with that we did not know.  we got no money no steel shot in the world and no wads.  "Blame cip"   "that’s a good one" No one need ever know.  Cedric feeling a bit guilty and suffering from indigestion because Donna from accounts can not cook to save her pretty little life as Cedric discovering since he moved in. after leaving his wife and the 2.4 god bless his little heart burn.   " Cedric says " but what about the orgs"  "hard lines for them boys and girld no emails keep quiet let them sort that out" .

So its all about Acid Indigestion gaviscon Donna from  Accounts and my incessant verbal diarrhoea trying to tame this ORG bashing fever that is so prevalent here its simply not funny. . Nonsense of course its utter tw3oddle but more believable than the orgs wanting their own way to ruin our sport.

 

i’m more than happy to watch you pay to be sold down the river non stop it’s your money not mine BUT when i get tarred with the same brush by association it’s not on nobody can deny this has not only damaged our sport but will hasten the end of it altogether so well done basc let’s give them a fat pay rise 

[8 shot]

As said earlier all my shoots stipulate fibre wads i'm, feel a bit stuffed by the orgs really.

[silver fox 1]

45 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

They are not viable to very many at all at that price, they are a token jesture from gamebore to simply say they have an option.

Commercially they have no need to move on this, Lead will still remain their main product, because everybody will go on buying it. And no law against that whatsoever.

They could make them much cheaper than that if they wanted.

If they are too expensive, why not try just using Cheaper steel ammo. say a 32 gram 4 gamebore supper steel or saaga Rio whatever you can get localy. If everybody moves as per the orgs recommendation the cartridge firms have to get loads out there competitive or fold.

Keep buying lead they will keep selling it you.

The world is not silly, everybody knows lead is toxic. BASC fought its corner as best it could its now time for change this was all about kick starting this change. giving us a smooth transition, this will be brought about by stopping buying lead. NOW> STOP then they got just the clay market, they got to go with something then to meet the requirements.

 

 Yes I can see your point and agree,  and will be speaking to some of the farmers I’ll shoot for to see if they would let us use plastic under the circumstances. Or just buy the more expensive and shoot less  by the way I will not pay £1400 for bismuth!!!

 Yes the world is not silly and people sort of know lead can be toxic but nobody wanted to pay for the scientific evidence, stalemate  don’t fix what’s not broken.  Yes there is need for change but I think it should’ve been done differently Hopefully it will be possible to get this sorted out within the five years before either the government step in and band it or the  tree huggers 

Edited March 1, 2020 by silver fox 1

[clangerman]

just in case anyone else claims this is a axe to grind I just returned from the rape and the neighbour greeted me with this QUOTE from the outside it looks like you hired monkeys in suits mate where did you find them the circus UNQUOTE now tell me we don’t look fools 

[lancer425]

33 minutes ago, clangerman said:

i’m more than happy to watch you pay to be sold down the river non stop it’s your money not mine BUT when i get tarred with the same brush by association it’s not on nobody can deny this has not only damaged our sport but will hasten the end of it altogether so well done basc let’s give them a fat pay rise 

On that sorry we must disagree.

[rbrowning2]

“ Cartridge firms see it and did not have a clue how to respond, It they had NO communication as they claim they would not have waited days to respond would you. ?”
 

I don’t think it unreasonable for the cartridge firms to take a few days to evaluate the situation, for the directors to communicate with each other and agree the wording of their joint statement, who’s to say the directors were actually available immediately or even in this country to communicate with.

you assume to much.

 

[lancer425]

11 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

“ Cartridge firms see it and did not have a clue how to respond, It they had NO communication as they claim they would not have waited days to respond would you. ?”
 

I don’t think it unreasonable for the cartridge firms to take a few days to evaluate the situation, for the directors to communicate with each other and agree the wording of their joint statement, who’s to say the directors were actually available immediately or even in this country to communicate with.

you assume to much.

 

I do not think so. I also think they they do not want this anyway that is more to the point. I can not see it is in their best interests right now.

I also think they did not like being thrown this gauntlet either. 

[rbrowning2]

Just now, lancer425 said:

I do not think so. I also think they they do not want this anyway that is more to the point. I can not see it is in their best interests right now.

I also think they did not like being thrown this gauntlet either. 

We may never know, but given they must have been busy preparing for the IWA I can quite easy see why it could have taken a few days to agree the wording after all they would not want to make the same mess of it that the shooting organisations had just done.

 

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, rbrowning2 said:

We may never know, but given they must have been busy preparing for the IWA I can quite easy see why it could have taken a few days to agree the wording after all they would not want to make the same mess of it that the shooting organisations had just done.

 

We are assuming the shooting orgs have made a mistake. I really do not see what credence the cartridge companies have as trustworthy and responsible. ELEY blatantly lied about lightening steel when it first came out. The article i read i think it was in shooting and conservation, said clearly, the cip rules were just a guidance and they could load if they wanted too.   They implied these super dooper new rounds were into the 1600s fps. But they never made that, nor did they leave them out long before they reduced the loads performance. Not sure but may have called some back in.IIRC.

They claimed they can not deliver on the ammo requirements of the voluntary ban.  CIP is an obsticle they did wine about in their statement and the wad issue again a problem . So on those points they may have some relative excuses. but I think in the not too distant future somebody will come out with an  suitable alternative wadding.

[Smokersmith]

A significant irony in all of this is that there’s been a concerted move driven from shooters themselves to move away from plastic. 
This would have perhaps been the right step to make  ... 

[wymberley]

To blazes with the tin hat, this does need saying. Some among us (I don't mean just PWers but all shooters) from what I've seen/heard over the passed few days may wish to spend some time before the crunch arrives - if indeed it actually does - getting a better understanding of the performance of both lead and steel shot in terms of energy and pattern. In the case of the latter, it's patently obvious that some care should be taken with regard to whom you pay attention to.

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, Smokersmith said:

A significant irony in all of this is that there’s been a concerted move driven from shooters themselves to move away from plastic. 
This would have perhaps been the right step to make  ... 

Absolutely, lets face it if we had had no plas wadding that worked this time last year  we would just have just finished our first season on NOn plas wads.

 

[rbrowning2]

We could say that as a wild fowler forced to use non toxic shoot you look to delighted in the idea of mutual pain, ie we have to use steel shot so it’s about time the rest of you had to!

To suggest the cartridge company have a hidden agenda is a very weak argument after all they are multi million pound successful businesses most are owned my massive parent companies and all export non toxic shot cartridges around the world, are ISO registered companies etc just cannot see why they would think they had anything to gain by going against all the uk shooting organisation if their statement was not a true statement of facts.

 

Members' Evening

a chance to discuss current issues

Thursday 19 March, Maidenhead

Join us at Berkshire College of Agriculture for an interesting and informative members' evening, discussing the future of shooting and what BASC is doing to tackle current and emerging threats in our sector. Keynote speakers will be BASC CEO Ian Bell and Chairman of BASC council Eoghan Cameron. We will also have a number of technical experts attending the event to allow you to discuss such things as firearms licensing, game and deer management, conservation and education, shooting in the media and much more. So please reserve your place by emailing or call us on 01244 573 028.

Time: Thursday 19 March; 6.30pm – 10pm. Place:

Berkshire College of Agriculture, Burchetts Green Road, Maidenhead SL6 6QR

 

just received from basc.

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

A significant irony in all of this is that there’s been a concerted move driven from shooters themselves to move away from plastic. 
This would have perhaps been the right step to make  ... 

Many (most?) shoots have and are doing that and have for years.  I ran quite a large shoot way back from the mid 1980's through to about early 2000's.  We mandated fibre wads (no exceptions) and always picked up cases.  We knew way back then that wads were a problem.  Our landlords had livestock and insisted that there were NO plastic wads about.  We occasionally had people claiming that their expensive pride and joy didn't pattern properly with fibre etc.  As one regular gun and big fibre supporter remarked to one such - well get a decent gun then!  Fibre may not pattern quite as tightly, but I have seen some very good shooting done all with fibre.

[Smokersmith]

14 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

We could say that as a wild fowler forced to use non toxic shoot you look to delighted in the idea of mutual pain, ie we have to use steel shot so it’s about time the rest of you had to!

The vast majority of Fowler’s use steel with plastic wads  .... this is no cake walk for anyone.

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, wymberley said:

To blazes with the tin hat, this does need saying. Some among us (I don't mean just PWers but all shooters) from what I've seen/heard over the passed few days may wish to spend some time before the crunch arrives - if indeed it actually does - getting a better understanding of the performance of both lead and steel shot in terms of energy and pattern. In the case of the latter, it's patently obvious that some care should be taken with regard to whom you pay attention to.

It is indeed. and generalisations though accurate dont tell the whole story.

We could go around in circles here until the cows come home, but choke lots of choke works well with steel and big steel too. this kind of flys in the face of what we were told. but everything else did not fit either. Steel was never suoposed to work well enough to kill ducks and geese but a couple of generations of fowler’s now have grown up knowing nothing else and seem to be doing ok with steel.

 

[lancer425]

4 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

The vast majority of Fowler’s use steel with plastic wads  .... this is no cake walk for anyone.

This^^^^ we are as much in the clart as you in fact more so because we use big shot, for big birds so these fibre wads seem if my info correct to not be as good on big shot so we might be in big trouble.

[Oddbod]

On 24/02/2020 at 12:08, TIGHTCHOKE said:

So if we happily comply with this voluntary ban on using lead shot for live quarry, then we can continue to shoot live quarry with non lead cartridges and can continue to shoot lead cartridges at clay pigeon shoots?

I'll stock up on lead shot loaded cartridges & keep shooting pigeons, corvids, rabbits, pheasant & everything else just as always. None of what I shoot is sold, as I eat it (apart from the corvids, well, apart from a couple...).

IMO this is being driven by the big estates, as it's only them who supply a significant amount into the retail food market & TBH I'm not one for using live quarry as a substitute for clays, which modern driven game days seems like to this country bumpkin.

[Dave-G]

Voluntary and banned = oxymoron. 

[SneakyD]

4 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Voluntary and banned = oxymoron. 

Very true.

However when the greens/antis lobby the government to ban lead shot, the government will just go ahead and ban it.  After all even the shooting orgs want it banned. 

[clangerman]

4 hours ago, Smokersmith said:

A significant irony in all of this is that there’s been a concerted move driven from shooters themselves to move away from plastic. 
This would have perhaps been the right step to make  ... 

you sir deserve a medal that’s exactly what the priority should have been phase out the plastic its THE dirty word of today and the no lose option to ban unless you think you know better than the entire population of coarse like some did 

[AULD YIN]

9 hours ago, lancer425 said:

What you are saying is that BASC and all those other orgs got together , one morning, and decided "i know why dont we ban lead shot, , we will upset a great many of our members if we do that"   " YAY"  " yes lets do that, oh and i have a good one lets not consult them that will upset some of them even MORE"   Doubly "YAY".   HO HO Ho " I can beat that"  "go on then",. "we can not mention any of this to the uk cartridge firms that will upset not only more members but the cartridge companies too" .

 OH! Go to the top of the class that man . " now we can look at loosing our jobs in an all too meagre jobs market in a struggling post brexit uk , jobs climate.  " YAY great idea lets go for that one".     Go on tell me i have led a sheltered life if you want, but i do not think that is quite what happened do you. ? Answers on a post card.

   I think even this  a more realistic version goes something like this. The orgs release the statement jointly .

 Cartridge firms see it and did not have a clue how to respond, It they had NO communication as they claim they would not have waited days to respond would you. ?

I think this is a more likely scenario. ELEY full of the joys of spring about their BIO wad Johny and nick horten testing it out etc. Were puffing their feathers out at a meeting where vthe orgs were some time ago. and cedric from eley. got a bit carried away with the after dinner mints, this coupled with the pastry on the old buffet table was giving him jip big style.

One or more of the orgs questioned Cedric " hey Cedric my old budy my old chum"  " you can deliver on this old chap "?   Cedric Put on the spot his recent oratory boasts, his acid indigestion the Lure of Donna from accounts alluring bust line coupled with the fact she is waving a full bottle of gaviscon at him how could  Cedric resist.  his Short reply " OH yes of course we can". seals the deal the orgs are on. 

 Brush up on a few of the old finer points looks good to me lets go "cunning plan under way" Steal the march on WJ in our own time. prompt change and a nice smooth transition.

 NOW we get the cartridge companies response, first they look at what happened. express ring bontoft ave why nobody to sure.  Well what are we going to do.  "as anybody actually emailed this to the orgs. " "NO"   "NO"?. Thats it lets go with that we did not know.  we got no money no steel shot in the world and no wads.  "Blame cip"   "that’s a good one" No one need ever know.  Cedric feeling a bit guilty and suffering from indigestion because Donna from accounts can not cook to save her pretty little life as Cedric discovering since he moved in. after leaving his wife and the 2.4 god bless his little heart burn.   " Cedric says " but what about the orgs"  "hard lines for them boys and girld no emails keep quiet let them sort that out" .

So its all about Acid Indigestion gaviscon Donna from  Accounts and my incessant verbal diarrhoea trying to tame this ORG bashing fever that is so prevalent here its simply not funny. . Nonsense of course its utter tw3oddle but more believable than the orgs wanting their own way to ruin our sport.

 

Whatever  your on you really  should stop taking it 

Edited March 2, 2020 by AULD YIN

[roughshooter]

7 hours ago, clangerman said:

you sir deserve a medal that’s exactly what the priority should have been phase out the plastic its THE dirty word of today and the no lose option to ban unless you think you know better than the entire population of coarse like some did 

I could understand the plastic ban to a certain degree.

revoke the lead ban for wild Fowler's and everyone use fibrewads for everything 

[JohnfromUK]

1 hour ago, roughshooter said:

revoke the lead ban for wild Fowler's and everyone use fibrewads for everything 

Whilst that makes a lot of sense, it isn't going to happen, not least because our organisations have "made their statements" and made it clear that they (now in a change of opinion as far as I can tell) favour a lead ban.  Many shoots have already operated a voluntary plastic ban for wads and collect policy for cases which has worked pretty well.  I suspect it was a bit weak in the 'recycling' area, but that would have been easy to put right.

[Penelope]

On 29/02/2020 at 23:41, lancer425 said:

You need these.

https://www.claygame.co.uk/12ga-cheddite-65mm-new-cases-pd98

Some of this. Or some other of your choice.

https://www.claygame.co.uk/1lb-alliant-steel-pd24

these

https://www.claygame.co.uk/12ga-fibre-shot-cups-34mm-38mm-and-55mm-pd82

these

https://www.claygame.co.uk/12ga-waxed-nitro-cards-pd142

You need a seal really . but op card.

some of this.

https://www.claygame.co.uk/steel-shot-pd6

one of these or better how deep are your pockets.  you could rto but need a drill its ok but . .. get a press.

cheap work ok.

https://www.claygame.co.uk/lee-load-all-ii-pd385

You need a set of scales but could not find any on that site. No idea how they sell anything on there what an awkward place to navigate i navigated across Mongolia easier than that.

 

And if I don't want to reload? Don't have the space or time?