Shadowchaser Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 My shotgun certificate renewal reminder letter came through today - 16 weeks in advance. Very good. In the past I've also received the application form and notes, not this time. They said go to website to download the forms. Fair enough, it's a cost saving. I already know about the ridiculous GP form we have to go through, but I also noted a "Other Occupants Form." In the application notes it says that this form must be filled in and returned. Now, I think at the time of my initial application/grant the FEO might have taken note of who else was in the house, but I've never had to do so since. How long has this been a thing? I'm not bothered by it, just wondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 If it’s not a legal requirement I wouldn’t fill it in personally. At my last renewal there was all manner of extra bumf I was asked to fill in but I just ignored it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowchaser Posted June 2, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 Indeed. On the application form and notes section there is nothing written about other occupants. Nor is it a tick box option on the declaration page. I will ignore it. Just another question, has anyone ignored the whole GP letter thing? I know not all forces are doing it and I don't believe it's the law, but stand to be corrected if that's not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnphilip Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, Shadowchaser said: Indeed. On the application form and notes section there is nothing written about other occupants. Nor is it a tick box option on the declaration page. I will ignore it. Just another question, has anyone ignored the whole GP letter thing? I know not all forces are doing it and I don't believe it's the law, but stand to be corrected if that's not the case. Would it not be better to ask your local force , this then no one on here will be I'll advising you . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowchaser Posted June 2, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 Just now, johnphilip said: Would it not be better to ask your local force , this then no one on here will be I'll advising you . It would, but forces have been known to say something is law and request it anyway even though it isn't law. Maybe I'll contact BASC and see what they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnphilip Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 Here in Scotland you have to fill in the doctors form , and pay up at the doctors . No doctors form no ticket . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkfanz Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 if your in mersey side you wont be allowed to ignore the doctors one,no medic,no ticket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Shadowchaser said: Indeed. On the application form and notes section there is nothing written about other occupants. Nor is it a tick box option on the declaration page. I will ignore it. Just another question, has anyone ignored the whole GP letter thing? I know not all forces are doing it and I don't believe it's the law, but stand to be corrected if that's not the case. I couldn’t ignore the GP part as I am one of those who has to declare an historic ( not current ) condition, and expected to be told I’d need to get a report. I wasn’t, and the next thing I knew my new tickets were issued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbiep Posted June 4, 2020 Report Share Posted June 4, 2020 There is actually a requirement, in the Home Office Handbook, that any non-statutory form should be marked up as follows : 10.36 Section 27 of the 1968 Act sets out the criteria for the grant or renewal of a firearm certificate. This, however, does allow chief officers of police discretion to make further enquiries into applications should they wish to do so. To do this, forces can use their own forms in addition to those which are specified in the legislation. Such forms, though, are non-statutory and there is no obligation for applicants to complete them in addition to those which are legally required. Where non-statutory forms are used for this purpose, they should be clearly marked to indicate their status. Non-statutory forms should be avoided, but if they are required for obtaining further specific information, they should be clearly marked to indicate their status – “whilst it is not a legal requirement to complete this form, completion may expedite the application. Any person making any statement on this form which they know or believe to be untrue commits an offence”. I'd suggest looking at the form, seeing if it mentions the above, and if not then writing to the PCC or Chief Constable, asking why the force are not complying with the Home Office requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quentyn Posted June 4, 2020 Report Share Posted June 4, 2020 3 hours ago, robbiep said: There is actually a requirement, in the Home Office Handbook, that any non-statutory form should be marked up as follows : 10.36 Section 27 of the 1968 Act sets out the criteria for the grant or renewal of a firearm certificate. This, however, does allow chief officers of police discretion to make further enquiries into applications should they wish to do so. To do this, forces can use their own forms in addition to those which are specified in the legislation. Such forms, though, are non-statutory and there is no obligation for applicants to complete them in addition to those which are legally required. Where non-statutory forms are used for this purpose, they should be clearly marked to indicate their status. Non-statutory forms should be avoided, but if they are required for obtaining further specific information, they should be clearly marked to indicate their status – “whilst it is not a legal requirement to complete this form, completion may expedite the application. Any person making any statement on this form which they know or believe to be untrue commits an offence”. I'd suggest looking at the form, seeing if it mentions the above, and if not then writing to the PCC or Chief Constable, asking why the force are not complying with the Home Office requirements. indeed this one doesnt https://www.lancashire.police.uk/media/1343129/firearms-licencing-co-residence-form.pdf and even has "To be completed and returned with the application form. The following Information is required in respect of all occupants of the property:" and " Checklist: Please ensure that you have enclosed the following with your Firearms/Shotgun application: Completed Firearm/Shotgun Form. Completed Medical Pro Forma. Completed Other Occupants Form." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted June 4, 2020 Report Share Posted June 4, 2020 1 minute ago, quentyn said: indeed this one doesnt https://www.lancashire.police.uk/media/1343129/firearms-licencing-co-residence-form.pdf and even has "To be completed and returned with the application form. The following Information is required in respect of all occupants of the property:" and " Checklist: Please ensure that you have enclosed the following with your Firearms/Shotgun application: Completed Firearm/Shotgun Form. Completed Medical Pro Forma. Completed Other Occupants Form." It isn’t a legal requirement to fill in this form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quentyn Posted June 4, 2020 Report Share Posted June 4, 2020 8 minutes ago, Scully said: It isn’t a legal requirement to fill in this form. true but they are quite clear that if you dont enclose it they wont process your certificate - which I appreciate is against HO guidelines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted June 4, 2020 Report Share Posted June 4, 2020 7 minutes ago, quentyn said: true but they are quite clear that if you dont enclose it they wont process your certificate - which I appreciate is against HO guidelines Ah well, so yet another precedent is set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbiep Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 Fill in the statutory forms, send them in. Do not fill in the non-statutory form. Send in a letter with the forms, quoting the HO Police Firearms Handbook, and copying in the letter to the PCC and Chief Constable. Inform the licencing dep't that, if they refuse to issue your certificate on the basis of your failure to fill in a non-statutory form, you will seek to make it an official complaint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisheruk Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 I would just get the whole lot sent in. If it means you get your ticket without the hassle it just makes sense. The police have a difficult enough job sorting out which application to approve or query I don’t see any problem in making their life more difficult. Why get yourself labelled as part of the awkward brigade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Fisheruk said: I would just get the whole lot sent in. If it means you get your ticket without the hassle it just makes sense. The police have a difficult enough job sorting out which application to approve or query I don’t see any problem in making their life more difficult. Why get yourself labelled as part of the awkward brigade? This is part of the reason we have the problems we do. It is because of attitudes like the above. Where do we draw the line? Serious question; where would you have us draw the line? What would it take for you to say ‘enough is enough’? It isn’t us who are being awkward, it is the police. If they really do have a difficult enough time of it as it is, why do they increasingly seek to make it more difficult for themselves with none legal requirements? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 21 minutes ago, Scully said: This is part of the reason we have the problems we do. It is because of attitudes like the above. Where do we draw the line? Serious question; where would you have us draw the line? What would it take for you to say ‘enough is enough’? It isn’t us who are being awkward, it is the police. If they really do have a difficult enough time of it as it is, why do they increasingly seek to make it more difficult for themselves with none legal requirements? Well said Scully, next will be they want to see your financial situation and get references from your neighbours, has already been talked about. Time the process was completely reworked and may be best removed from the police, or at least no longer under the control of the chief constable, May be to under the crime commissioner? long gone are the days when you brought a sgc from the post office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant1 Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 (edited) those were the days rbrowning2 used to get mine from the post office, carry my gun through the village with no gun slip no one battered a eye lid hang my shotguns on my bedroom wall. knock on the local farms door to ask if it would be ok to have a walk around never refused would just ask you to bring something back for them, glory days. Edited June 5, 2020 by ant1 added text Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 Shot gun certificates have never been available from the post office, that was the old ten bob licence to carry a gun. When certificates were introduced in 1968 they were issued by the police, that was the great difference from the gun licence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B725 Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 I've had my renewal from Derbyshire today no mention of other occupants on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 2 hours ago, B725 said: I've had my renewal from Derbyshire today no mention of other occupants on it. +1 here as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 2 hours ago, B725 said: I've had my renewal from Derbyshire today no mention of other occupants on it. Just done mine in Derbyshire. Likewise, no mention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkedUp Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 Lots of valid points raised. I would simply email the Firearms department and -politely- enquire why it is required. When you have a return forward onto BASC for their perspective. We need to act in unison, I wouldn’t want to make enemies in my licensing authority by drawing attention to myself but also I wouldn’t want to encourage widespread police intrusion by making an easy life for myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 8 minutes ago, WalkedUp said: Lots of valid points raised. I would simply email the Firearms department and -politely- enquire why it is required. When you have a return forward onto BASC for their perspective. We need to act in unison, I wouldn’t want to make enemies in my licensing authority by drawing attention to myself but also I wouldn’t want to encourage widespread police intrusion by making an easy life for myself. you already have come to their attention the police record every bit of gossip tittle tattle and rumour they hear on tickets holders this rubbish is just another tool to assist them in ending private ownership of firearms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuartyboy Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 13 minutes ago, clangerman said: you already have come to their attention the police record every bit of gossip tittle tattle and rumour they hear on tickets holders this rubbish is just another tool to assist them in ending private ownership of firearms Can I ask if you have proof of this and if so, where from? The reason I ask is because if this is true, which I personally doubt, that is more of a concern than any additional forms. And the reason is; that if it’s ‘tittle tattle’ and ‘rumour ‘ as you say, that implies it’s unsubstantiated, possibly made up and wouldn’t hold in a court of law or appeal. But anyone could make up bull about you, including the police, which would affect your suitability to hold a license and more importantly, be a stain against your character. So if the police use lies, slander or whatever to prejudice you without any form of proof, that is a big worry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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