Plumbing building work costs going balistic!

[RockySpears]

I want my boiler moved from the loft to the kitchen directly below.  The pipe work comes up from the kitchen and is no more than 2 feet from the new boiler location, going under floorboards, outside wall with a straight flue.  just been quoted £896 +VAT, really?

Had quotes for a new roof/fascias/guttering etc etc ranging from £8,000 to £18,000 with numbers inbetween!

Builders all seem busy as hell too, some saying they cannot do work until July.  I am glad that mostly self employed are working, been there, done that, but is everyone booked up for months?

Any one know a Plumber in Stockton on Tees?

Cheers,

RS

[Rob85]

1 hour ago, RockySpears said:

I want my boiler moved from the loft to the kitchen directly below.  The pipe work comes up from the kitchen and is no more than 2 feet from the new boiler location, going under floorboards, outside wall with a straight flue.  just been quoted £896 +VAT, really?

Had quotes for a new roof/fascias/guttering etc etc ranging from £8,000 to £18,000 with numbers inbetween!

Builders all seem busy as hell too, some saying they cannot do work until July.  I am glad that mostly self employed are working, been there, done that, but is everyone booked up for months?

Any one know a Plumber in Stockton on Tees?

Cheers,

RS

Ask them to itemize their quote, I would assume there's a charge in there to commission the stove/boiler again as it's being removed and then reinstalled

[eddoakley]

Everyone that I speak to is busy. I can't get enough staff and the work keeps coming.

Prices for subbies go up with demand so Labour is costing me more which has to be passed on.

Materials are still not easy and the costs have risen dramatically on lots of things so again the client sees that increase.

I'm expecting it to come to a grinding halt in the not too distant future.

 

Edd

[Rupert]

We are busy, its lovely. Your contention is the figures are too high, on what are you basing that? what are your expectations of materials,labour,overhead,insurance,tools,wear and tear,vans,training,professional fees etc.?

I am a contractor,i have all the above to contend with,provide fund, i am on a rolling basis owed in at least £20,000 in what are basically unsecured credit.  What do you think is fair? I spent the first 5 years making virtually nothing, hand to mouth, i have had customers who have been absolute diamond,and others not pay at all,pay when it  suits,take delivery of a new audi and tell me to my face i wont get a cent. I charge a fortune for my time, i work 2 weeks a month, ive earned it in my view. But still intrigued to hear some form of breakdown beyond "its seems a lot"

[eddoakley]

5 hours ago, Rupert said:

We are busy, its lovely. Your contention is the figures are too high, on what are you basing that? what are your expectations of materials,labour,overhead,insurance,tools,wear and tear,vans,training,professional fees etc.?

I am a contractor,i have all the above to contend with,provide fund, i am on a rolling basis owed in at least £20,000 in what are basically unsecured credit.  What do you think is fair? I spent the first 5 years making virtually nothing, hand to mouth, i have had customers who have been absolute diamond,and others not pay at all,pay when it  suits,take delivery of a new audi and tell me to my face i wont get a cent. I charge a fortune for my time, i work 2 weeks a month, ive earned it in my view. But still intrigued to hear some form of breakdown beyond "its seems a lot"

Lots of valid points and I've stopped even trying to explain costs to a lot of customers.

If they ask for a breakdown of costs other than labour and materials I often don't reply and might walk away from a job as they either want to supply materials or count the hours.

If they supply materials it's usually wrong or poor quality and ends up taking time to resolve.

If they want to check the hours they usually interfere or ask for discount if it's quicker but don't think about offering more if it takes lo get than expected.

I've never been out of work in 20 years so my prices must be fair and as I've never advertised then customers must be happy for the work to keep coming.

The OP's quote of £900 does sound expensive but impossible to say without more detail. Where in the country, extension of a flue, extend gas supply and primaries, upgrade gas supply, make good, commission, test, certify, guarantee....?

Gas Safe will want to be paid each year and qualifications updated as required. Test equipment calibrated and upgraded. Insurance, advertising, vehicle costs, accountant, premises, workwear....

Customers don't often understand these costs.

Did that turn into a bit of a rant??

 

Edd

[Jaymo]

4 minutes ago, eddoakley said:

Lots of valid points and I've stopped even trying to explain costs to a lot of customers.

If they ask for a breakdown of costs other than labour and materials I often don't reply and might walk away from a job as they either want to supply materials or count the hours.

If they supply materials it's usually wrong or poor quality and ends up taking time to resolve.

If they want to check the hours they usually interfere or ask for discount if it's quicker but don't think about offering more if it takes lo get than expected.

I've never been out of work in 20 years so my prices must be fair and as I've never advertised then customers must be happy for the work to keep coming.

The OP's quote of £900 does sound expensive but impossible to say without more detail. Where in the country, extension of a flue, extend gas supply and primaries, upgrade gas supply, make good, commission, test, certify, guarantee....?

Gas Safe will want to be paid each year and qualifications updated as required. Test equipment calibrated and upgraded. Insurance, advertising, vehicle costs, accountant, premises, workwear....

Customers don't often understand these costs.

Did that turn into a bit of a rant??

 

Edd

Not at all, everyone wants something for nothing.

My favourite is when on a fixed price job is for them to say “whilst your here can you just......” and when you say “yes, that will cost x” and all you get is “ I’m paying enough already” - well yes you are, it’s the going rate for that job, and only that job!!!!!

What amazes me is how skilled certain customers must be to be able to price up a job and say “ it’s only a bit of pipework and won’t take long” !!! Are we replacing like for like or going from an a vented to unvented etc 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Many years ago I quoted for and got a bathroom refit job. I even accepted their choice of bath and fitting that they ordered and paid for. I explained I would want a little more money and they agreed. Started the job and they wanted to go from tiled backsplash and shower area over bath to full bathroom tiled.

I worked out the extra tiles, adhesive and time with the daughter and let the owners know.

I started the job and then they queried the total.

I was only 700 yards from home. So I went for a walk, had my lunch and watched some TV. The Lady of the house phoned me at 15:00 to ask if there was a problem and I replied that I was considering removing the extra tiles that they were unhappy about the cost of.

She apparently called her husband at work and then called me to finish the job for the agreed amount.

I worked until 21:00 that night to get it finished and out.

They brought the payment round the next evening.

 

Customers, can't live with them, can't live without them!

[figgy]

Rocky the prices of materials have gone through the roof. 

They will have to drain your system, remove the boiler pat h the wall. Cut and alter the pipework to suit the new boiler position all within current regs. Flush the system and commission it.  They have all the usual to pay out of what you pay them.  Unless you know someone to do it on the side of their normal working week, that's the price you have to pay.

18k for a bungalow roof is way off, what they using Tesla roof tiles.

[Rupert]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

 

 

Customers, can't live with them, can't live without them!

Fortunately now i can live without them.

[ShootingEgg]

11 hours ago, RockySpears said:

Builders all seem busy as hell too, some saying they cannot do work until July

Builder i am currently using for an extention is booked up now until this time next year. He is flat out. With more calls coming in

[AVB]

I am trying to get a three bay oak framed garage built. The supplier of the garage can do it in reasonable time at reasonable cost but the cost of the groundworks has gone through the roof. A three bay gen 1 concrete pad, 1000mm deep foundations = £13,500 + vat.  

[Spr1985]

8 minutes ago, AVB said:

I am trying to get a three bay oak framed garage built. The supplier of the garage can do it in reasonable time at reasonable cost but the cost of the groundworks has gone through the roof. A three bay gen 1 concrete pad, 1000mm deep foundations = £13,500 + vat.  

Hi avb, if you have some drawings/ dimensions ping them over to me and I’ll speak to someone for you. No promises obviously but I can ask the question. 

[Wilts#Dave]

Very difficult to say whether or not the amount you’ve been quoted is ridiculous or not (it does sound expensive if as straightforward as it sounds, no new boiler etc), but most likely he’ll be used to making that sort of money on a boiler ‘change’ where they supply a boiler. The sort of profit in those jobs for a days work! 
Does make me laugh how much some customers think tradesmen should charge/earn though, whilst they earn their 6 figure salary or whatever doing an office job/going to work in a suit. 
I’m afraid a good electrician/plumber etc that are signing off work as ‘safe’ and have to be qualified/pay for the privilege have a skill set worth a fair chunk of money, whether you agree or not! 
I’ve lucky that I’ve never had to advertise for work, and have realised good honest tradesmen are in short supply......if you’re any good you’ll be busy (I’d be more worried if someone can start next week). 

[RockySpears]

Look, I am not saying the price is wrong, I am asking.  I used to do all my own stuff, but now am happy and able to let others do it. 

It is a straight forward move, the pipes are all easily accessible in the new position.  Other than the actual gas installation, I would do it myself, but am happy not to. I just query a £900 price tag. Getting more than 1 quote is proving hard, every one seems busy, and I am glad for them. Just asking here for an honest opinion, not trashing tradesmen at all, 

Cheers, 

RS

[al4x]

8 hours ago, AVB said:

I am trying to get a three bay oak framed garage built. The supplier of the garage can do it in reasonable time at reasonable cost but the cost of the groundworks has gone through the roof. A three bay gen 1 concrete pad, 1000mm deep foundations = £13,500 + vat.  

Should have moved the Tesla off the drive before they came round.......

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, al4x said:

Should have moved the Tesla off the drive before they came round.......

That did make me giggle.

Loving this thread. 

Remind me to link back to it when the ‘I can’t believe the solicitor wants £200 to draw up our Wills’ thread comes back round 😆

Incidentally, and this is one for the economists:

1. We can all see and feel prices rising, right? Especially in construction.

2. Interest rates are and remain in the toilet and there is even serious talk of them going negative in the coming months to help re-boot the economy.

3. Inflation has to come, if it isn’t here already. 

4. How does the government control inflation without touching interest rates?

5. I have 3 mortgages out of handcuffs between May and July and re-fixing at the right moment will make a difference to me. Indeed the last I did a couple of months ago was £390 / a month interest only for £260k over 5 years and that is just ridiculously never been seen before low. Can they actually go lower?

[AVB]

27 minutes ago, Mungler said:

That did make me giggle.

Loving this thread. 

Remind me to link back to it when the ‘I can’t believe the solicitor wants £200 to draw up our Wills’ thread comes back round 😆

Incidentally, and this is one for the economists:

1. We can all see and feel prices rising, right? Especially in construction.

2. Interest rates are and remain in the toilet and there is even serious talk of them going negative in the coming months to help re-boot the economy.

3. Inflation has to come, if it isn’t here already. 

4. How does the government control inflation without touching interest rates?

5. I have 3 mortgages out of handcuffs between May and July and re-fixing at the right moment will make a difference to me. Indeed the last I did a couple of months ago was £390 / a month interest only for £260k over 5 years and that is just ridiculously never been seen before low. Can they actually go lower?

There are two things that don't reconcile with the state of the economy - Inflation and Share Prices. Both should be tanking but they aren't. For years the value of shares have been detached from company fundamentals, one reason being that with interest rates being so low their is only one place for investors to put their money and that's the equity and bond markets. Inflation is a strange one. Obviously people are still spending and research is showing that many people have saved so much money during lockdown that they are splurging on building projects and luxury items which is compensating for the downturn in some sectors. I see the government lifting the shackles on inflation, keeping interest rates low, for a while to let the economy grow. It depends on how high it gets. 'Reasonable' inflation isn't a bad thing.    

 

 

[RockySpears]

34 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Can they actually go lower?

  I have a few Tracker mortgages,  BoE rate +0.5%.  So if rate get to -0.5%, I pay nothing, after that, they pay me to borrow their money.  I even checked the small print and can't find a get out clause for them.  I do believe som Danish mortgages are in fact, already charging negative rates.

As for the original post, the quote does not breakdown the costing at all and I would say 90% of the price will be labour as not much new pipework is required.  2 blokes for a day would seem about right.  Are we really looking at £400 per man labour costs?  That would beat anything I ever got by a nice long walk in the country.

Yours,

RS

[Mungler]

1 minute ago, AVB said:

There are two things that don't reconcile with the state of the economy - Inflation and Share Prices. Both should be tanking but they aren't. For years the value of shares have been detached from company fundamentals, one reason being that with interest rates being so low their is only one place for investors to put their money and that's the equity and bond markets. Inflation is a strange one. Obviously people are still spending and research is showing that many people have saved so much money during lockdown that they are splurging on building projects and luxury items which is compensating for the downturn in some sectors. I see the government lifting the shackles on inflation, keeping interest rates low, for a while to let the economy grow. It depends on how high it gets. 'Reasonable' inflation isn't a bad thing.    

 

 

 

The FTSE share index is a total mystery to me - how, just how is it knocking on the door of 7000?

One of my clients bought Easy Jet shares at the bottom of the bottom and I said I thought he was mad buying an airline stock in this climate. 

The Easy Jet share price is pretty much back up to where it was before Covid and he’s doubled his money. How? Just how?

Just now, RockySpears said:

  I have a few Tracker mortgages,  BoE rate +0.5%.  So if rate get to -0.5%, I pay nothing, after that, they pay me to borrow their money.  I even checked the small print and can't find a get out clause for them. 

Wins like that are what can cheer you up on a sad day 😆👍

[RockySpears]

7 minutes ago, AVB said:

'Reasonable' inflation isn't a bad thing.    

Inflation is a straight forward Tax on money (cash), you start the year with £100 buying power, and end it with only ££98 (@ 2%).  There is nothing "Reasonable" about inflation.  Most here will have lived though the 70's and 80's.

If you started in 1970 with £100 then, to buy the same goods in 1990 you would need £661.  You think that "Reasonable"?

Yours,

RS

[AVB]

15 minutes ago, Mungler said:

 

The FTSE share index is a total mystery to me - how, just how is it knocking on the door of 7000?

One of my clients bought Easy Jet shares at the bottom of the bottom and I said I thought he was mad buying an airline stock in this climate. 

The Easy Jet share price is pretty much back up to where it was before Covid and he’s doubled his money. How? Just how?

Wins like that are what can cheer you up on a sad day 😆👍

Two things in my opinion. People are no longer employed to analyse the fundamentals of companies and make recommendations (used to be called research analysts) but bots do a lot of it instead especially with large volume programme trades and whats called high frequency trading. The bots say when airlines have been low in the past they have recovered therefore that is what will happen this time. The problem is if there is a 'new normal' (hate that phrase) that means all previous behaviour is discounted. Secondly is tracker funds. A lot of funds track indices in order to get performance in line with a specific index. Therefore if an index contains a particular company then funds will buy that company and the price will rise. Which is why indices have to be treated with a pinch of salt. And don't forget the constituents are refreshed regularly with low performers booted out. So the index will always rise.    

 

 

9 minutes ago, RockySpears said:

Inflation is a straight forward Tax on money (cash), you start the year with £100 buying power, and end it with only ££98 (@ 2%).  There is nothing "Reasonable" about inflation.  Most here will have lived though the 70's and 80's.

If you started in 1970 with £100 then, to buy the same goods in 1990 you would need £661.  You think that "Reasonable"?

Yours,

RS

Inflation isn't a tax. It isn't imposed on anything it is derived from the value of goods rising or falling. Rising inflation typically shows a growing economy (and I.m not talking about hyper inflation here). So in your example wages would also have grown in that period and therefore the value of your debts would also have decreased over that same period. 

 

If you had a £10K mortgage in 1970 that was stretching you, you would be less worried about it being a £10K mortgage in 1990.  

Edited February 18, 2021 by AVB

[SpringDon]

Inflation is literally what it says. It is dilution of the money supply. The fiat currencies have been shielded from the effects of inflation by exporting it to lower wage economies. This process is slowing and will soon stop.

The stock markets are so “high” as a result of the colossal money printing exercise by central banks since 2009, and given a fresh boost in the pandemic. 

Interest rates are already effectively negative and it only a small step (already being considered by boe) to actual negative interest.

We are close to stagflation but currently, although prices are rising, inflation is still low. But how long can that continue? And when combined with a shrinking economy....

[JTaylor91]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

 

The FTSE share index is a total mystery to me - how, just how is it knocking on the door of 7000?

One of my clients bought Easy Jet shares at the bottom of the bottom and I said I thought he was mad buying an airline stock in this climate. 

The Easy Jet share price is pretty much back up to where it was before Covid and he’s doubled his money. How? Just how?

Wins like that are what can cheer you up on a sad day 😆👍

Similarly I bought Jet2 shares at about £4 back at the start of lockdown. Sold some at £15 last week and they have dropped a little  now to £12.50. 

[Mungler]

I can see the government willing on a little inflation to wash away some of the debt / borrowings to hand but I am not sure what the knock ons are.

From what I see at the coal face, if there is any long term increase in interest rates to traditional rates of old like 5% (but hey, that was so long ago now to almost be ancient history) then it’s the end of everything - whilst the cost of borrowing is so low and there is real world inflation running at a higher rate than interest rates then people are happy to borrow to spend, punt, invest or buy and it’s that activity that keeps stuff circulating and moving around in an economy that is in the doldrums.

I am in the process of buying another B2L with my business partner because I can see that the value of money is going to decline in real terms but older constructed houses (you remember the ones with gardens and off street parking) in the right parts of the South East aren’t going to go out of fashion any time soon and certainly not inside the interest only mortgage fixed term.

Indeed, whilst we have been through a pandemic (apparently), this country is still over populated and the pandemic is only likely to affect population to the extent that boys and girls can’t get together like they used to and so there will be a dip in birth rates (and not because of a dramatic death rate).

The RICS stats are fascinating when you look at year on year how many houses we need and how few we are building despite what successive governments promise. People always need somewhere to live. 

Anyone see the select committee suggestion that there should be an annual property tax 0.006% of value, and such that if you live in a £1m house you pay an additional £6000 a year tax. It’s a pain that they mess with the housing market and not the financial markets with such regularity. If you punt £250k of your pension on the FTSE that fine and dandy, but if you take that £250k buy a house and become a landlord, well that’s abhorrent. 

[AVB]

1 hour ago, JTaylor91 said:

Similarly I bought Jet2 shares at about £4 back at the start of lockdown. Sold some at £15 last week and they have dropped a little  now to £12.50. 

And they were £20 pre covid so you absolutely bought at the right time. You've made a profit but if you were holding any that you bought pre-covid then you are facing a fairly big loss on paper at least.