Fact vs fiction

[Doc Holliday]

There has been much conjecture from both sides of this topic, but both citing 'this research' or 'that paper' to be true/false. Here's what I have concluded, and I dare say I will be vilified by some (or even most) on here for holding such a view.

1. From my understanding of viruses and their transmission, there is no such thing as Asymptomatic transmission. You cannot 'have a virus' and not show any signs of infection. By the time you are infected to levels that would be contagious, you would be looking like death warmed up, a marker for others to steer clear of you. The BMJ say on their website, and I quote, 'The absence of strong evidence that asymptomatic people are a driver of transmission is another good reason for pausing the roll out of mass testing in schools, universities, and communities.' Mass testing! More on that in point 3.
2. Masks have a very limited effect on the spread of the virus. I'm not saying that they don't work, I'm saying their effectiveness is massively overrated. From the WHO website - 'the use of a mask alone is not sufficient to provide an adequate level of protection against COVID-19'. Ok, so the use of a mask along with what other precautionary measures? Glass/plastic screens or barriers? Really? We are talking about something which has the ability to get inside a bacteria cell, to give it some perspective, and these bodies seriously believe that a flimsy piece of fabric is going help? Again, before you shout me down I'm not saying they shouldn't be used in stores/buildings if one is out shopping but think about this for a moment. We are told to wear a mask when moving around a building but we can remove it when sitting. Maybe I am being somewhat dim here but perhaps someone can explain to me how this would be effective. An airborne pathogen can't be move around from those walking around if it is exhaled from someone whilst sitting? We either wear masks all the time or we don't. My opinion would be the latter, given their relative effectiveness. 
3. Misleading information relating to deaths from the virus. The whole affair has become a Casedemic issue rather than a pandemic. This means the media are fixed on reporting 'cases' rather than actual deaths from Covid-19 alone. How can we possibly know the true effect of this virus if the information we are being presented with is skewed? And why would they do this? You don't have to a professor to know that this is wrong and misleading. To be labelled a 'Covid death', all a person had to do was to die within 28 days of being tested positive with virus, regardless of how they died. The PCR tests alone are not a reliable method of testing because of the levels of false positives and false negatives. Without having reliable information from the outset, how on earth can we be sure about anything else that follows? And it stands to reason that the more we test then the higher the numbers will be, and the numbers are no higher than any other year for regular flu transmissions. In fact, it has been said that figures are actually lower than a 'normal year'. 
4. Following on from the report that there are no actual figures from 'Covid only deaths', why or how is it even possible that figures relating to deaths from CVD and Alzheimer's has fallen? No one seems to have provided an answer to that one yet, other than it must be that any deaths from these have been labelled as Covid deaths.  
5. Vitamin D deficiency coupled with metabolic issues. In short, we have an obligation, not only to ourselves but to others and the nation, to be as healthy as possible. The NHS seems to have become a crutch for people to eat junk food and drink excessively and it will be there to pick up the pieces and patch them up. An individual's Vitamin D level plays a major role in the how severely a person is affected by Sars-Cov II. The Covid-19 virus has an inflammatory effect within the body. If your body is already 'inflammed' because of the lifestyle choices you have made then chances are you will be affected to a greater degree by this virus. 
6. Covid-19 is no less than 80% similar to other coronavirus pathogens. Just how dissimilar does a virus need to be before your body doesn't recognise it, do you think? Well, in lab tests it has been shown that a virus can be less than 3% similar and the body can still recognise it and fight it off. 
7. The vaccine (I think it was referring to the AZ vaccine) initiates a spike protein replication of the Covd-19 virus in the body for it to produce antibodies. The vaccine (again, I believe this was the AZ vaccine) has a sequence of the Sars-Cov II genetic code inserted into it to enable this to happen. This is a relatively new approach. Originally, vaccines work by using a very watered down live virus or a larger sample of dead virus. The downside with this new (and not properly tested) approach is that it seems to 'encourage' the virus to mutate. The reason they went this route? Not enough of the original virus could be harvested to make an effective conventional vaccine would be my guess. 
8. The idea of a vaccine passport is just another level of bureaucratic absurdity. After the second world war, the UN decreed that it would be illegal for any government to enforce a medical procedure on an individual or make then feel under duress to have one carried out. 

As said at the outset, this is what I have observed after reading up on and listening to so called 'experts'. Some put their evidence/argument across in way which seems quite logical, others less so, but I am willing to keep an open mind and will be interested to hear arguments to the contrary on this so please, let's keep it civil and save any name calling for the playground.

[enfieldspares]

Pretty much on target on most of your points. But then the whole point is that this was never about who lived, or who died, it was about protecting Johnson and his cronies from the political fallout from the NHS being overwhelmed and folks dying in corridors without oxygen. The slogan was, recall "Protect the NHS". You could have added the additional words "so that £350m a week promise on a big red bus isn't exposed as the lie it was."

So political self preservation needed the Government to be shown to doing something. No matter how actually useless it was. And a lot has simply been gesture politics akin to Beaverbrooks "pots and pans for Spitfires" in 1940. The aluminium gathered was useless for the purpose but made people believe (just as now) that "we're all in it together". And if we are "all in it together" then that diverts the blame from Johnson and his lackey Hancock.

Edited May 9, 2021 by enfieldspares

[Pangolin]

Both the OP and the first comment from endfieldspares are refreshing to see.

I pretty much agree with everything posted.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Pangolin

[NoBodyImportant]

All I know is the whole time the viruses was out of control my wife’s  hospital was crewing them out everyday because of no patients.  Then they laid my wife and half her coworkers off (RN nurses) eventually because of lack of work during the peak of Covid and great nurse shortage.  North Carolina shut down elective surgery and turned my wife’s elective surgery floor into a Covid unit that set empty for months on end. Then when we eventually caught Covid it was milder then a common cold.  I cut firewood and tore down a old house through my 14 day quarantine, wife got the attic cleaned out and my 9 year old rode ATVs and played video games.  The two people I know that died from it where in their 80s but my wife’s grandmother had it in her 90s and she was fine. But she was a healthy for 90 so that was probably a factor.  

[ordnance]

1. Quote

   Covid-19 is no less than 80% similar to other coronavirus pathogens. Just how dissimilar does a virus need to be before your body doesn't recognise it, do you think? Well, in lab tests it has been shown that a virus can be less than 3% similar and the body can still recognise it and fight it off. 

   For the vast majority their body's do recognise it as foreign and fight it of, for some it overwhelms them. The immune system takes time to recognise and fight off a virus that its not come across before, that's the job of vaccines to give the immune system a heads up. 

2. How Does Coronavirus Manage To Evade Your Immune ...

3. Quote

   The downside with this new (and not properly tested) approach is that it seems to 'encourage' the virus to mutate. The reason they went this route? Not enough of the original virus could be harvested to make an effective conventional vaccine would be my guess. 

    I am sure there are lots of reasons for going that route, one quick google search. 

4.  

   Quote

    

    Live-attenuated viruses

   Attenuated means 'weakened'. Weakening a live virus typically involves reducing its virulence — capacity to cause disease — or ability to replicate through genetic engineering. The virus still infects cells and causes mild symptoms.

   For a live-attenuated virus, an obvious safety concern is that the virus might gain genetic changes that enable it to revert back to the more virulent strain. Another worry is that a mistake during manufacturing could produce a defective vaccine and cause a disease outbreak, which once happened with a polio vaccine.

    

    

Edited May 8, 2021 by ordnance

[ordnance]

1 hour ago, NoBodyImportant said:

All I know is the whole time the viruses was out of control my wife’s  hospital was crewing them out everyday because of no patients.  Then they laid my wife and half her coworkers off (RN nurses) eventually because of lack of work during the peak of Covid and great nurse shortage.  North Carolina shut down elective surgery and turned my wife’s elective surgery floor into a Covid unit that set empty for months on end. Then when we eventually caught Covid it was milder then a common cold.  I cut firewood and tore down a old house through my 14 day quarantine, wife got the attic cleaned out and my 9 year old rode ATVs and played video games.  The two people I know that died from it where in their 80s but my wife’s grandmother had it in her 90s and she was fine. But she was a healthy for 90 so that was probably a factor.  

They are still studying the effects of CV19 in people that have being infected, even those with mild symptom's. 

• Quote

  Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.

   

[treetree]

It has been a period of mass delusion and hysteria, when science became corrupted, and when the media became a weapon of propaganda. Fear was used as a method of control, and anyone who dared to question the loss of their liberties was accused of being selfish. Parents didn't have the backbone to say 'not when told their children would have to wear a mask all day long at school.

How people are still allowing this nonsense to continue is beyond me.

[ordnance]

49 minutes ago, treetree said:

It has been a period of mass delusion and hysteria, when science became corrupted, and when the media became a weapon of propaganda. Fear was used as a method of control, and anyone who dared to question the loss of their liberties was accused of being selfish. Parents didn't have the backbone to say 'not when told their children would have to wear a mask all day long at school.

How people are still allowing this nonsense to continue is beyond me.

So its all a cunning plan to control people 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by ordnance

[Scully]

I can’t comment on any of the science you mention as I genuinely don’t care enough to look it up, but I think your post is bang on the button. 
I wholeheartedly agree regarding the masks; I’ve said from day one that if they were effective why is it acceptable to wear any old thing as long as it covers your mouth and nose. From purpose made masks, to snoods and hankies and everything in between, all acceptable and all of little value. Even our governments advisors said so before making ‘face coverings’ compulsory. 🤷‍♂️
Good post. 

[ordnance]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

I can’t comment on any of the science you mention as I genuinely don’t care enough to look it up, but I think your post is bang on the button. 
I wholeheartedly agree regarding the masks; I’ve said from day one that if they were effective why is it acceptable to wear any old thing as long as it covers your mouth and nose. From purpose made masks, to snoods and hankies and everything in between, all acceptable and all of little value. Even our governments advisors said so before making ‘face coverings’ compulsory. 🤷‍♂️
Good post. 

 You think his post is spot on, but go on to say you can't be bothered to see if his post is accurate in any way   Its maybe a falling of mine that i tend to put more faith in experts in infectious diseases and immunology etc, over hearsay and conspiracies. 

Still Confused About Masks? Here's the Science Behind How ...

Edited May 8, 2021 by ordnance

[243deer]

The vast majority of folk I know (fairly obviously country folk who understand life and death is a daily occurance) are quite happy to take their chances and live life normally. The minority are scared of their own shadows, have become the covid gestapo, and have led a miserable existance these last few months, but then they believe everything the 'experts' with the greatest media coverage say without question. These same folk will not accept, nor will they seek out, any alternative opinions from other 'experts' in the medical and scientific community because they are not what they want to hear. 

 

[henry d]

12 minutes ago, 243deer said:

...are quite happy to take their chances and live life normally.

The problem with this though is that they are taking chances with others lives and I can't understand why someone would do that.

[stuartc44]

How would they be taking chances with others lives? The others will be isolating if they think it necesary, or if going out will be distancing, sanitizing and wearing masks.

[henry d]

19 hours ago, Doc Holliday said:

We either wear masks all the time or we don't

Why black and white? I would also point you to ordnance's post.

[henry d]

1 minute ago, stuartc44 said:

How would they be taking chances with others lives? The others will be isolating if they think it necesary, or if going out will be distancing, sanitizing and wearing masks.

Because they could still be spreading the virus, you can try and distance yourself from people but only if they are also distancing, you can sanitise your hands but if someone else is not then you can pick up the virus, if you wear a mask and someone else is not and they also don't sanitise, or stay at a distance, then transmission rates are going to be higher!

[Scully]

9 hours ago, ordnance said:

 You think his post is spot on, but go on to say you can't be bothered to see if his post is accurate in any way   Its maybe a falling of mine that i tend to put more faith in experts in infectious diseases and immunology etc, over hearsay and conspiracies. 

Still Confused About Masks? Here's the Science Behind How ...

It’s an opinion, and as others are quick to point out, we’re all entitled to them. It just happens to be one I agree with.

I’m not confused about masks thanks. As I said, Clinically approved, snoods, ‘home made’, all are acceptable as ‘face coverings’, and that’s all that is required to get you where you want to be. Four motorcyclists wearing scarves in Tebay services yesterday. Perfectly fine. 

[treetree]

12 hours ago, ordnance said:

So its all a cunning plan to control people 

Such a shame that people will revert to the 'conspiracy theorist' sleight to close an argument, much like 'racist' can be thrown about for perfectly valid views on immigration.

[stuartc44]

16 minutes ago, henry d said:

Because they could still be spreading the virus, you can try and distance yourself from people but only if they are also distancing, you can sanitise your hands but if someone else is not then you can pick up the virus, if you wear a mask and someone else is not and they also don't sanitise, or stay at a distance, then transmission rates are going to be higher!

You can't have one person distancing and one not, you're either 2m apart or you're not, sanitize hands upon entering and leaving the shop, not forgetting to sanitize everything you have bought and you're safe aren't you? Some won't be wearing masks because they are exempt. If you don't think it's safe then you should stay at home and let those that do get on with life.

[Pangolin]

5 minutes ago, treetree said:

Such a shame that people will revert to the 'conspiracy theorist' sleight to close an argument, much like 'racist' can be thrown about for perfectly valid views on immigration.

If you're not still ****ting yourself or following the narrative then you're a conspiracy theorist.

And yes, it is thrown around to cancel out any opinion and shut down debate.

 

[oscarsdad]

It is daft really, Chris Witty, Patrick Vallance and JVT should have just asked a load if blokes who go shooting to look on the internet and see how we should deal with the pandemic. 
 

Just trust scientists, there is no motive for them to do anything other than protect people. No conspiracies. 
 

The only conspiracies are the loons who are anti-vax, anti-5G and Covid deniers. 
 

The UK has done a brilliant job at dealing with Covid and when the post mortem happens, of course there will be things that could have been done better with hindsight but overall we have probably achieved the best outcome, that is not to distract from the thousands of deaths, each one a tragedy. 
 

Here’s a good analogy for those who think face masks are not needed and can’t be bothered to read the science. 
 

Edited May 9, 2021 by oscarsdad

[mel b3]

35 minutes ago, oscarsdad said:

It is daft really, Chris Witty, Patrick Vallance and JVT should have just asked a load if blokes who go shooting to look on the internet and see how we should deal with the pandemic. 
 

Just trust scientists, there is no motive for them to do anything other than protect people. No conspiracies. 
 

The only conspiracies are the loons who are anti-vax, anti-5G and Covid deniers. 
 

The UK has done a brilliant job at dealing with Covid and when the post mortem happens, of course there will be things that could have been done better with hindsight but overall we have probably achieved the best outcome, that is not to distract from the thousands of deaths, each one a tragedy. 
 

Here’s a good analogy for those who think face masks are not needed and can’t be bothered to read the science. 
 

Absolutely bang on the money 👍.

[henry d]

16 minutes ago, stuartc44 said:

You can't have one person distancing and one not, you're either 2m apart or you're not,

I can try to do that with the best will in the world but it still happens, I don't have a freaking force field around me I had several people brush past me yesterday when I picked up a few items in ASDA, I can only do so much but if someone is intent on reaching past me I can't stop them!

sanitize hands upon entering and leaving the shop, not forgetting to sanitize everything you have bought and you're safe aren't you?

No, as safe as possible perhaps. If I sanitise on entry then I am stopping any virus I may have on my hands, and that is all, I can then touch something and transfer it, as can others. How many people do you see touching their mask, pulling it up, or similar when shopping?

Some won't be wearing masks because they are exempt.

That's ok is it, no chance of them spreading the virus, and some are just flaunting the regulations.

If you don't think it's safe then you should stay at home and let those that do get on with life.

It's not safe, but if people thought about others or were less ignorant we could get on with life.

 

[Newbie to this]

12 minutes ago, henry d said:

Some won't be wearing masks because they are exempt.

That's ok is it

Absolutely, they are exempt for a reason, hence the exemption rule!

Edited May 9, 2021 by Newbie to this

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, oscarsdad said:

It is daft really, Chris Witty, Patrick Vallance and JVT should have just asked a load if blokes who go shooting to look on the internet and see how we should deal with the pandemic. 
 

Just trust scientists, there is no motive for them to do anything other than protect people. No conspiracies. 
 

The only conspiracies are the loons who are anti-vax, anti-5G and Covid deniers. 
 

The UK has done a brilliant job at dealing with Covid and when the post mortem happens, of course there will be things that could have been done better with hindsight but overall we have probably achieved the best outcome, that is not to distract from the thousands of deaths, each one a tragedy. 
 

Here’s a good analogy for those who think face masks are not needed and can’t be bothered to read the science. 
 

Ah but if the bloke who pees his pants then doesn't wash his hands after handling his tollywocker then everything he touches now has become contaminated.

[ordnance]

2 hours ago, treetree said:

Such a shame that people will revert to the 'conspiracy theorist' sleight to close an argument, much like 'racist' can be thrown about for perfectly valid views on immigration.

What other way is there to look at your post bellow, who is behind this weapon of propaganda and fear and why ?

 

Quote

 

15 hours ago, treetree said:

It has been a period of mass delusion and hysteria, when science became corrupted, and when the media became a weapon of propaganda. Fear was used as a method of control, and anyone who dared to question the loss of their liberties was accused of being selfish. Parents didn't have the backbone to say 'not when told their children would have to wear a mask all day long at school.

How people are still allowing this nonsense to continue is beyond me.