Looking ahead..........

[Walker570]

It is becoming more apparent every day that next season for game shooting then non lead shot will be the order of the day.  As a regular shooter of a 410 this does create somewhat of a problem as at the moment there are few manufacturers producing non toxic for 410s.  Seeing as I reload the majority of my cartridges then I will probably choose one of the alternatives and work up some loads for that.  Just throwing it open to other small bore shooters, 410, 28 gauge then how do you see the next season

At least one shoot I use has already stated that they will be insisting on non toxic next season as they have to sell their game to the EU and they are against any lead at all, so the pressure may come from the Estates and commercial shoots.

 

Discuss.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Walker570

[rbrowning2]

Loaded a lot of 28ga with lead shot and fibre wads, non toxic shot will see the end of the .410 and probably the 28ga unless you are very rich.  As only viable options are tungsten based shot or bismuth.  Capacity of the .410 and probably 28ga is too little to accommodate going two sizes larger with steel shot and still have a useful pattern at any sensible distance to humanly kill.

have you not noticed the shooting press when pushing the virtues of steel shoot always conveniently forget about the .410 and 28gauge.

The  DIY game shoots will be the place to shoot .410 and 28ga  where the game shot gets used by the guns and beaters and hence I expect where lead shot will continue to be used until or if banned in law.

Others on PW may hopefully suggest I am wrong.

[Charliedog]

4 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Loaded a lot of 28ga with lead shot and fibre wads, non toxic shot will see the end of the .410 and probably the 28ga unless you are very rich.  As only viable options are tungsten based shot or bismuth.  Capacity of the .410 and probably 28ga is too little to accommodate going two sizes larger with steel shot and still have a useful pattern at any sensible distance to humanly kill.

have you not noticed the shooting press when pushing the virtues of steel shoot always conveniently forget about the .410 and 28gauge.

The  DIY game shoots will be the place to shoot .410 and 28ga  where the game shot gets used by the guns and beaters and hence I expect where lead shot will continue to be used until or if banned in law.

Others on PW may hopefully suggest I am wrong.

pretty much this I would suggest

[Ultrastu]

This is the main reason I've not invested more money into a " better " .410 than the cheap singled barreled folder I currently  own .the calibres days are numbered  

I will continue  to enjoy it for as long as I can then probably  scrap it . 

[Walker570]

Well I intend to go ahead and experiment with non toxic.  Yes it is a bit more expensive but how much per season would that be for me.????

I average 20 days a year but do not shoot big days ....120 is usually my limit with a n occasional foray into 130-150.  I guess on most of the days I shoot around thirty cartridges over a four drive day, a few mpre a few less but that would mean around 600 for the season.  I do not have up to date costs of non toxic over lead but I would be hapy to accept 25% increase to be able to continue the shooting I enjoy.   I really do not see it causing me to stop shooting the 410.  I have loaded a couple of different non toxics and if I did my job then these loads pulled birds out of the sky.  I will be making enquiries regarding the manufacture of 410 and 28 bore non toxics and in some respects I thing the Italians will be our saviours here as they are ardent small bore shooters.   Keep the faith.

[wymberley]

23 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Loaded a lot of 28ga with lead shot and fibre wads, non toxic shot will see the end of the .410 and probably the 28ga unless you are very rich.  As only viable options are tungsten based shot or bismuth.  Capacity of the .410 and probably 28ga is too little to accommodate going two sizes larger with steel shot and still have a useful pattern at any sensible distance to humanly kill.

have you not noticed the shooting press when pushing the virtues of steel shoot always conveniently forget about the .410 and 28gauge.

The  DIY game shoots will be the place to shoot .410 and 28ga  where the game shot gets used by the guns and beaters and hence I expect where lead shot will continue to be used until or if banned in law.

Others on PW may hopefully suggest I am wrong.

Well argued, but I'm non too sure. 410 is a niche gun thoroughly enjoyed by their owners who won't be too keen to give them up. The DIY shoots where the bag is not large I suspect the readies will be found to suit. No one has unlimited funds, so a shot medium which has a high energy aspect any need for a high pellet count which can be offset by tighter patterning qualities and which although pricey - probably too pricey when considering current loads - can be 'reduced' by smaller loads which remain equally effective becomes very attractive So, say, TSS 8&1/2 at 16 gr in a 410 and home loaded may just be do-able for the average Joe and for those with somewhat more disposable income, factory loads slightly larger for the higher volume shoots in a 28. I suppose at the end of the day it simply depends on the individuals' determination to continue.

If I wasn't getting ready to knock it all on the head, I'd be out looking for a very nice 410 - or two - before the price goes up.

[Stonepark]

I would disagree, The 410 has always been a small chambered, high pressure gun due to mass of load at 18g+ operating at what would be considered magnum pressures for any other bore.

A 410 TPS wad holds 150 No7(0.100inch) steel pellets.

For example 14gr to 16gr of lilgun will give 10g steel 1300fps to 1545fps at 9400 to 11000psi, more than fast enough, Alliant Steel will do similar at 10gr to 11gr.

Within 30 yards with a bit of choke, all of the pattern will be in 30 inch circle and will still have enough energy and penetration to kill pigeons, pheasants may need to be 25 yards out or closer

I need to work out a load for SP3 at some point and I am sure it will work fine as well.

The 410 3 inch magnum is not dead yet, range limited with steel by pattern density and pellet size/energy to 30 yards rather than 35-40 with lead perhaps.

But the 410 and 28 bore will still have a place with steel shot.

 

 

 

[rbrowning2]

2 hours ago, Stonepark said:

I would disagree, The 410 has always been a small chambered, high pressure gun due to mass of load at 18g+ operating at what would be considered magnum pressures for any other bore.

A 410 TPS wad holds 150 No7(0.100inch) steel pellets.

For example 14gr to 16gr of lilgun will give 10g steel 1300fps to 1545fps at 9400 to 11000psi, more than fast enough, Alliant Steel will do similar at 10gr to 11gr.

Within 30 yards with a bit of choke, all of the pattern will be in 30 inch circle and will still have enough energy and penetration to kill pigeons, pheasants may need to be 25 yards out or closer

I need to work out a load for SP3 at some point and I am sure it will work fine as well.

The 410 3 inch magnum is not dead yet, range limited with steel by pattern density and pellet size/energy to 30 yards rather than 35-40 with lead perhaps.

But the 410 and 28 bore will still have a place with steel shot.

 

 

 

Hoping you are correct, but cannot see the commercial loaders putting much effort into the .410 or 28ga their is a very noticeable lack of even 20ga non toxic cartridges so far.  Will the biodegradable wads even exist for .410 and 28ga?

could very much be that loading your own is the only option, like 10ga and 8ga is virtually now.

 

 

[Old farrier]

2 hours ago, Stonepark said:

I would disagree, The 410 has always been a small chambered, high pressure gun due to mass of load at 18g+ operating at what would be considered magnum pressures for any other bore.

A 410 TPS wad holds 150 No7(0.100inch) steel pellets.

For example 14gr to 16gr of lilgun will give 10g steel 1300fps to 1545fps at 9400 to 11000psi, more than fast enough, Alliant Steel will do similar at 10gr to 11gr.

Within 30 yards with a bit of choke, all of the pattern will be in 30 inch circle and will still have enough energy and penetration to kill pigeons, pheasants may need to be 25 yards out or closer

I need to work out a load for SP3 at some point and I am sure it will work fine as well.

The 410 3 inch magnum is not dead yet, range limited with steel by pattern density and pellet size/energy to 30 yards rather than 35-40 with lead perhaps.

But the 410 and 28 bore will still have a place with steel shot.

 

 

 

The biggest problem is that most of the game shoots require fibre wad cartridges 

the non toxic and fibre at a pain as a fibre shot cup reduced the space available for the steel that realistically requires more space 

im thinking one of the tungsten based heavy shot is the way to go with the 410 to meet with the fibre and non lead loads 

probably capable than of 12 bore distance 

however the cost increase will be more than Walkers 15%

[Walker570]

58 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Hoping you are correct, but cannot see the commercial loaders putting much effort into the .410 or 28ga their is a very noticeable lack of even 20ga non toxic cartridges so far.  Will the biodegradable wads even exist for .410 and 28ga?

could very much be that loading your own is the only option, like 10ga and 8ga is virtually now.

 

 

I think the Italians may disagree. They already produce some of the very best 410 shells and I am sure that they will be looking to supply  non toxic.

Personally I am going to go the bismuth route.  I shot a fair number of the 16g Rleye Bismuth and found at sensible ranges they would handle mallard/teal and also partridge and pheasant if I did my job.  They also patterned about the same 30 inch circle at 35yrds full choke and I could not see much difference in the penetration in the ply backing.

ALSO it can be shot through any shotgun and with fibre wads.

About £50 a kilo at the moment from Clay & Game so , yes, it will be a bit more expensive...all the more reason to make each shot count

[Rob85]

24 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

I think the Italians may disagree. They already produce some of the very best 410 shells and I am sure that they will be looking to supply  non toxic.

Personally I am going to go the bismuth route.  I shot a fair number of the 16g Rleye Bismuth and found at sensible ranges they would handle mallard/teal and also partridge and pheasant if I did my job.  They also patterned about the same 30 inch circle at 35yrds full choke and I could not see much difference in the penetration in the ply backing.

ALSO it can be shot through any shotgun and with fibre wads.

About £50 a kilo at the moment from Clay & Game so , yes, it will be a bit more expensive...all the more reason to make each shot count

As much as I do not own a .410, your last line is what brings it home to me as regards shooting of any sort. Theres going to be a lot of people regardless of the gun they shoot that maybe need to have a look at their cartridge to kill ratio and realise they need to be more realistic in the shots they select, rather than worry how much its going to cost to run non toxic shot through their one man anti-aircraft battery.

[Scully]

I suppose much depends on whether the shoot you’re in demands non toxic. If the demand for .410 lead dries up then it will either become even more expensive than it is now, or manufacturers will stop making it. 
There again, if there is no demand for the components to reload .410, then they will stop producing those too, or again, they will be very expensive. 
If the Italians are keen on the cartridge, as has been mentioned, then maybe things will pan out ok. 

[HantsRob]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

There again, if there is no demand for the components to reload .410, then they will stop producing those too, or again, they will be very expensive. 
If the Italians are keen on the cartridge, as has been mentioned, then maybe things will pan out ok. 

 

Or zero demand means they stop making for the UK, and it becomes just another import for countries that still enjoy 410? Which coincides with your second line.

[wymberley]

Looking ahead is interesting in as much as we can't be sure what's in store. I have this feeling that whereas, say, hunting evolved by swapping live quarry for smelly rags, we're going to revolve. I can quite see that it could be perfectly feasible that by 2040 (a few extra years needed for everything to settle down) shooting will be as per 1910 -  although, naturally, the equipment will evolve as it always has.

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, HantsRob said:

 

Or zero demand means they stop making for the UK, and it becomes just another import for countries that still enjoy 410? Which coincides with your second line.

This problem has already been seen with less popular rifle calibres. The UK importers aren't interested in importing slow moving stock . I would think places like Italy will just carry on using lead and totally ignore any ban

[wymberley]

1 minute ago, Vince Green said:

This problem has already been seen with less popular rifle calibres. The UK importers aren't interested in importing slow moving stock . I would think places like Italy will just carry on using lead and totally ignore any ban

Ain't that a fact, just as the retailers aren't interested in stocking very much of anything. 

[Walker570]

It may mean we will see the sales of reloading gear going up  To be honest when taken against what I spend each season on my driven days, travel etc, then the price of the cartridges I fire are of no consequence.    Tell me how much are the refills for those darn awful stinky smelly things folks puff on these days?

[HantsRob]

18 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Ain't that a fact, just as the retailers aren't interested in stocking very much of anything. 

To be fair, looking at what Greenfields stock variety wise, it's potentially a few hundred SKU. That and needing to keep probably at least a slab in per SKU, and thousands for the popular quick sellers, I can imagine it's a logistical and stockroom nightmare!

[wymberley]

6 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

To be fair, looking at what Greenfields stock variety wise, it's potentially a few hundred SKU. That and needing to keep probably at least a slab in per SKU, and thousands for the popular quick sellers, I can imagine it's a logistical and stockroom nightmare!

Makes one wonder how they used to manage.

[HantsRob]

37 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Makes one wonder how they used to manage.

Based on my last shopping trip there, not well! 
TERRIBLE customer services (if anyone from that store reads this - seriously terrible when someone is trying to buy a gun and ammo! Never felt so unwelcome, and this is why I didn't spend 3-4k on a gun with you!)

 

Low on stock, still advertising lots on the web. I went into the store and the single page A4 sheet showed how dire it was. There were some carts on "special price" but nothing to wow you, and when I asked about 8 different common carts you'd think I was asking for the moon. "28g in fibre or plas, below £300/thou" shouldn't be a hard ask.

They are getting some more "soon"
They can't give a delivery date
They can't tell me what price they will be when they arrive
They can't call me when they arrive
They won't (or haven't) replied to 2 separate sales emails I had previously sent
They will however happily follow you around the store about 4 paces behind, especially in the clothing section, and watch everything you do. I mean, sure protect your assets but it feels like you're being constantly accused of shoplifting.

Sadly it's a reason I won't trust them to service my gun as I feel that I am an inconvenience to them as I am not a big spender, or don't wear tweed when entering the store (that seems to get them all in a happy fluster on the occasions I've been).

I will however annoyingly continue to use them to buy carts and lube and what not, as they are the cheapest in the area. I need a local syndicate who buys ammo by the pallet so that the delivery charge isn't unreasonable by buying a few thou!

Avalon will get my custom when I go down to Somerset next time. At least they treat you like you're buying a H&H, even if you're only wanting to have a mooch.

 

Sorry, that turned into a rant..... and yes, I wonder how they used to manage

Edited December 15, 2021 by HantsRob

[wymberley]

37 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

Based on my last shopping trip there, not well! 
TERRIBLE customer services (if anyone from that store reads this - seriously terrible when someone is trying to buy a gun and ammo! Never felt so unwelcome, and this is why I didn't spend 3-4k on a gun with you!)

 

Low on stock, still advertising lots on the web. I went into the store and the single page A4 sheet showed how dire it was. There were some carts on "special price" but nothing to wow you, and when I asked about 8 different common carts you'd think I was asking for the moon. "28g in fibre or plas, below £300/thou" shouldn't be a hard ask.

They are getting some more "soon"
They can't give a delivery date
They can't tell me what price they will be when they arrive
They can't call me when they arrive
They won't (or haven't) replied to 2 separate sales emails I had previously sent
They will however happily follow you around the store about 4 paces behind, especially in the clothing section, and watch everything you do. I mean, sure protect your assets but it feels like you're being constantly accused of shoplifting.

Sadly it's a reason I won't trust them to service my gun as I feel that I am an inconvenience to them as I am not a big spender, or don't wear tweed when entering the store (that seems to get them all in a happy fluster on the occasions I've been).

I will however annoyingly continue to use them to buy carts and lube and what not, as they are the cheapest in the area. I need a local syndicate who buys ammo by the pallet so that the delivery charge isn't unreasonable by buying a few thou!

Avalon will get my custom when I go down to Somerset next time. At least they treat you like you're buying a H&H, even if you're only wanting to have a mooch.

 

Sorry, that turned into a rant..... and yes, I wonder how they used to manage

This is not my day. Just had to apologise for a misunderstanding and was about to comment on how lucky you are to be close to that RFD. Must say though that in the middle of the lockdown some 16 months back I visited and was well served while buying a W&S 702. I left Exmouth with 6 gears but this was reduced to 3&1/2 by the time I got to Bridport. When you're in trouble it doesn't really matter where you are so I kept going, made it to Salisbury and was still smiling when I finally got home on the same 3&1/2.

[Minky]

7 hours ago, HantsRob said:

Based on my last shopping trip there, not well! 
TERRIBLE customer services (if anyone from that store reads this - seriously terrible when someone is trying to buy a gun and ammo! Never felt so unwelcome, and this is why I didn't spend 3-4k on a gun with you!)

 

Low on stock, still advertising lots on the web. I went into the store and the single page A4 sheet showed how dire it was. There were some carts on "special price" but nothing to wow you, and when I asked about 8 different common carts you'd think I was asking for the moon. "28g in fibre or plas, below £300/thou" shouldn't be a hard ask.

They are getting some more "soon"
They can't give a delivery date
They can't tell me what price they will be when they arrive
They can't call me when they arrive
They won't (or haven't) replied to 2 separate sales emails I had previously sent
They will however happily follow you around the store about 4 paces behind, especially in the clothing section, and watch everything you do. I mean, sure protect your assets but it feels like you're being constantly accused of shoplifting.

Sadly it's a reason I won't trust them to service my gun as I feel that I am an inconvenience to them as I am not a big spender, or don't wear tweed when entering the store (that seems to get them all in a happy fluster on the occasions I've been).

I will however annoyingly continue to use them to buy carts and lube and what not, as they are the cheapest in the area. I need a local syndicate who buys ammo by the pallet so that the delivery charge isn't unreasonable by buying a few thou!

Avalon will get my custom when I go down to Somerset next time. At least they treat you like you're buying a H&H, even if you're only wanting to have a mooch.

 

Sorry, that turned into a rant..... and yes, I wonder how they used to manage

 But this  is pretty much how most of them are.  most assistants don't know what where or when.  years ago I remember going into Geenfields in Canterbury when it was in the town.  (It's a pizza shop now). I asked for cartridges.  The bloke rubbed his chin and said to another assistant, "do we sell cartridges, Bert.?"....   Burt replied that he wasn't sure.!!!  He said would I  like to look at some Wellingtons.!!?  I  walked out. They didn't last long.

[rbrowning2]

9 hours ago, Minky said:

 But this  is pretty much how most of them are.  most assistants don't know what where or when.  years ago I remember going into Geenfields in Canterbury when it was in the town. "……………….I  walked out. They didn't last long.

How WRONG your are, they relocated the shop to their shooting ground in sturry Canterbury and have only this month finally closed the clay shooting ground as the owner is retiring and they will build houses on the ground probably making a fortune in the process. The shop remains open and is expected to relocate again still under younger family ownership.

I will miss making the effort to travel to the shooting ground as the journey was worth the effort, still I also enjoy retirement.

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by rbrowning2

[rbrowning2]

20 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Duplicate post

Edited December 16, 2021 by rbrowning2

[Minky]

11 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

How WRONG your are, they relocated the shop to their shooting ground in sturry Canterbury and have only this month finally closed the clay shooting ground as the owner is retiring and they will build houses on the ground probably making a fortune in the process. The shop remains open and is expected to relocate again still under younger family ownership.

I will miss making the effort to travel to the shooting ground as the journey was worth the effort, still I also enjoy retirement.

 

They still didn't last long at that place and I am aware that they went to Sturry ground and a few blokes have said to me that they were just as inept there.  One time I  was passing and dropped in to say hello,  I  asked if I could look at the layout and was bluntly told no.  I even showed them my certs,  Fair enough its their ground so I got back in the car and drove away.  No difference to me.  There are other places to shoot and buy stuff.  I never went back and I've heard similar  (Some like em, some dont)  I  am also aware that the shop was intending on moving to another place in Hersden  (I think),,  But I  have also heard that this may have fallen through.  It is bad when any fail as it is another source which isn't available. I wish them well for the future. Whatever that may be.