Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[mick miller]

Even the old warmongering dinosaur Kissinger can see the writing on the wall. 

[ditchman]

1 hour ago, mick miller said:

Even the old warmongering dinosaur Kissinger can see the writing on the wall. 

christ i though the was dead.......... 

[mick miller]

28 minutes ago, ditchman said:

christ i though the was dead.......... 

Does evil ever really die? 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

28 minutes ago, ditchman said:

christ i though the was dead.......... 

Kissinger is still going and has suggested Ukraine give up territory to end the war!

[Raja Clavata]

Cede territory to Russia on the basis of what, as previously shown to be meaningless, guarantees?

[ordnance]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Kissinger is still going and has suggested Ukraine give up territory to end the war!

Surrender in other words

 

[amateur]

Do 99 year old Kissinger's utterings matter nowadays?

[Mungler]

‘Once Upon A Time in Londongrad’

Sky documentary. Brilliant stuff. I’ve just got to the end.

Broadly, a long list of Putin / Russian state sponsored assassinations, investigated and tied in together.

[mick miller]

On 01/06/2022 at 06:02, Mungler said:

‘Once Upon A Time in Londongrad’

Sky documentary. Brilliant stuff. I’ve just got to the end.

Broadly, a long list of Putin / Russian state sponsored assassinations, investigated and tied in together.

Or creative propaganda, depends on your perspective. 

Mind you, nothing that the CIA or MI6 doesn't equally engage in, so rather pot calling the kettle black. 

Personally, I would prefer a world where we don't elect and elevate psychopaths and megalomaniacs into power, regardless of which side of an ideological fence they reside as the end result is always misery for 'ordinary' people. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by mick miller

[Scully]

22 minutes ago, mick miller said:

. 

Personally, I would prefer a world where we don't elect and elevate psychopaths and megalomaniacs into power, regardless of which side of an ideological fence they reside as the end result is always misery for 'ordinary' people. 

And that’s the crux of the matter really; if a countries leaders had to fight a war, there wouldn’t be any wars. 

[mel b3]

34 minutes ago, Scully said:

And that’s the crux of the matter really; if a countries leaders had to fight a war, there wouldn’t be any wars. 

Never a truer word written .

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 hour ago, mick miller said:

Personally, I would prefer a world where we don't elect and elevate psychopaths and megalomaniacs into power, regardless of which side of an ideological fence they reside as the end result is always misery for 'ordinary' people. 

 

37 minutes ago, Scully said:

And that’s the crux of the matter really; if a countries leaders had to fight a war, there wouldn’t be any wars. 

 

2 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

Never a truer word written .

And if it did happen we wouldn't have a Military of any form other than for the tourists.

[ditchman]

as i said earlier ......."old men start wars ....young people die in them"....

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, mick miller said:

Or creative propaganda, depends on your perspective. 

So, let’s try the lowest hanging fruit.

Skripal / Salisbury poisonings and Alexander Litvininko - Kremlin sanctioned assassinations, yes or no. 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, ditchman said:

as i said earlier ......."old men start wars ....young people die in them"....

This. 

[oowee]

Now a cut in Neon gas from Russia (60% market share with the bit of Ukraine they now occupy) which controls world chip production. Ouch 

[Dave-G]

14 hours ago, oowee said:

Now a cut in Neon gas from Russia (60% market share with the bit of Ukraine they now occupy) which controls world chip production. Ouch 

Indeed,the invasion of Ukraine for energy is rather well explained in this video I came across this morning.

It's 40 minutes long but if time is short start at nearly 20 minutes into it for a real eye opener showing the gas grab that russia is doing, primarily in Donbass and Crimea. 

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Dave-G

[mick miller]

On 04/06/2022 at 12:50, Mungler said:

So, let’s try the lowest hanging fruit.

Skripal / Salisbury poisonings and Alexander Litvininko - Kremlin sanctioned assassinations, yes or no. 

What am I basing my analysis on?

The intelligence agency reports, who demonstrably lie (WMD, Steele Dossier just to name a couple of recent biggies)? Or the press, who are simply an extension of the intelligence agencies (think not? Have a closer look at many). So, that leaves the mainstream 'analysis' somewhat lacking in credibility and merit.

Am I to imagine that our own agencies wouldn't release stuff and experiment on the British public? Well, history tells us that that too is a myth, they're perfectly happy to do so and not inform you of it one bit. See experiments on soldiers, who died, at Porton Down when told they were testing something benign for the common cold, or the dousing of swathes of the UK with radioactive materials, just to see where it would gather and spread, or releasing anthrax on the underground amongst a long, long list of only the things admitted to or that have leaked.

So, pardon me when I find my default position is to 1. Not trust a word any government tells me 2. believe anything out of our intelligence agencies or 3. Lend credence to anything published in the media, which is essentially nothing other than the mainstream outlet for 1. & 2. (otherwise, you generally don't get to say it).

The location of the event, what with it being suspiciously close to Porton Down, didn't raise my eyebrows at all at the time. Nor did the fluff and obfuscation printed in the press. Something fishy happened for sure, was it all Russia, Russia, Russia? Who really knows.

That's why I don't give 'Sky's Putin Bashing Reportage' a second glance as he's simply the bogeyman of the present, ignoring completely the West's arming of a buffer territory, disregard of Minsk 2, it's relentless encroachment on Russia's borders, or the installation of a US/CIA backed puppet in Zelensky in what is little more than a coup, or the blatant sponsoring and arming of actual nazis, or the flagrant corruption, money laundering and trafficking in Ukraine; as Sky's reportage isn't worth the first glance.

EDIT: I forgot to add, the relentless shelling of Ukraine's own people for 8 years, the alledged torture, abduction, silencing of political opposition, arrests of journalists critical of the regime. Democracy is great, yay!

Mind you, do I believe everything coming out of the other side either? Not very much, it has to be said, but I certainly don't regard Putin to be anywhere near the pariah that the West has made him out to be, especially when considering the West's record in destabilising Africa, the Middle East, South America, Asia and elsewhere.

So what reliable information am I to base my assessment of this 'low hanging fruit' on when I don't trust the narrative of the West and equally mistrustful of the East? These people make a habit, nay business, out of telling lies.

Double edit: Does Russia sanction hits? Yeah. Do our governments do the same? Duh. Would it be lovely for our (s)elected leaders not to relentlessly create wars and misery simply to enrich themselves and their establishment buddies and, instead, try and do good stuff for the people of the country, hell yeah! Looking at it, that does indeed seem to be the direction Putin, that terrible pariah, is heading. Unless, of course, you're a western sponsored change agent happy to get their norks out just to try a make a point in western media. Go, Pussy Riot!

Edited June 7, 2022 by mick miller

[oowee]

38 minutes ago, mick miller said:

What am I basing my analysis on?

The intelligence agency reports, who demonstrably lie (WMD, Steele Dossier just to name a couple of recent biggies)? Or the press, who are simply an extension of intelligence agencies (think not? Almost all so-called 'journalism' is little more than parroted copy supplied by MI5, MI6 if the journalist themselves are not directly operatives or heavily involved/ linked to the military industrial complex, or out of one of the Oxbridge spook grooming establishments). So, that leaves the mainstream 'analysis' somewhat lacking in credibility and merit.

Am I to imagine that our own agencies wouldn't experiment on the British public? Well, history tells us that that too is a myth, they're perfectly happy to do so and not inform you of it one bit. See experiments on soldiers, who died, at Porton Down when told they were testing something benign for the common cold, all shushy, shushy on that though was the media, of course. Or the dousing of swathes of the UK with radioactive materials, just to see where it would gather and spread, or releasing anthrax on the underground amongst a long, long list of only the things admitted to or that have leaked.

So, pardon me when I find my default position is to 1. Not trust a word any government tells me 2. believe anything out of our intelligence agencies or 3. Lend credence to anything published in the media, which is essentially nothing other than the mainstream outlet for 1. & 2.

The location of the event, what with it being suspiciously close to Porton Down, didn't raise my eyebrows at all at the time. Nor did the fluff, obfuscation, cover ups or downright lies printed in the press. So excuse my when I don't give 'Sky's Putin Bashing Reportage' a second glance as he's simply the bogeyman of the present, ignoring completely the West's arming of a buffer territory, disregard of Minsk 2, it's relentless encroachment on Russia's borders, or the installation of a US/CIA backed puppet in Zelensky in what is little more than a coup, or the blatant sponsoring and arming of actual nazis, or the flagrant corruption, money laundering and trafficking in Ukraine; as Sky's reportage isn't worth the first glance.

EDIT: I forgot to add, the relentless shelling of Ukraine's own people for 8 years, the torture, abduction, silencing of political opposition, arrests of journalists critical of the regime. Democracy, yay!

Mind you, do I believe everything coming out of the other side either? Not very much, it has to be said, but I certainly don't regard Putin to be anywhere near the pariah that the West has been in Africa, the Middle East, South America, Asia, Eastern Europe (Yugoslavia was a doozy).

So what am I to base my assessment of this 'low hanging fruit' on?

Double edit: Does Russia sanction hits? Yeah. Do our governments do the same? Duh. Would it be lovely for our (s)elected leaders not to relentlessly create wars and misery simply to enrich themselves and their establishment buddies and, instead, try and do good stuff for the people of the country, hell yeah! Looking at it, that does indeed seem to be the direction Putin, that terrible pariah, is heading. Unless, of course, you're a western sponsored change agent happy to get their tits out. Pussy riot!

That's one strange world you live in there. 

[Rewulf]

13 minutes ago, mick miller said:

The intelligence agency reports, who demonstrably lie (WMD, Steele Dossier just to name a couple of recent biggies)? Or the press, who are simply an extension of intelligence agencies (think not? Almost all so-called 'journalism' is little more than parroted copy supplied by MI5, MI6 if the journalist themselves are not directly operatives or heavily involved/ linked to the military industrial complex, or out of one of the Oxbridge spook grooming establishments). So, that leaves the mainstream 'analysis' somewhat lacking in credibility and merit.

An excellent example of this is the 'Open source, citizen journos' Bellingcat, who claim to be independent, yet are directly funded by the Atlantic council, an off shoot of NATO.
They provide 'concrete proof' of Russian wrong doing, using made up witness statements and photoshopped images.
The key point being that government spooks can plausibly deny any partnership if it all goes wrong with the story.
The Guardian, having some special relationship with them , reports all their stories as if they are the gospel truth.

Heres an example of Bellingcats idiocy and misdirection.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/02/27/ukraine-conflict-tracking-use-of-cluster-munitions-in-civilian-areas/

Cluster munitions are a type of weapon that deploy a large number of smaller sub-munitions over a target. These sub-munitions then spread and explode over a larger area, increasing the potential for damage and casualties. 

Due to the wide harm they can cause, cluster munitions are widely criticised as weapons that pose “an immediate threat to civilians during conflict” and for the “long-lasting” problems they can cause if sub-munitions do not explode upon first impact.

More than 100 countries have banned their use and signed up to the Convention on Cluster Munitions. However, neither Russia nor Ukraine (which also possesses cluster munitions) has put their name to this agreement.

Russia has continued to use them, most notably in eastern Ukraine in 2014 and later in Syria. 

Ukraine strongly denied using cluster munitions during the conflict with Russian-backed separatists in the east of the country in 2015, despite a Human Rights Watch (HRW) report that stated they likely had. 

In recent days, social media images and videos have allowed Bellingcat – along with other conflict monitors and open source researchers – to geolocate the impact sites of several cluster munitions to civilian areas within Ukraine. 

We have also been able to determine the probable direction from which the missiles came, providing a clue as to who may have fired them.

In some instances, the number of casualties appears to have been significant.

For example, HRW have investigated and verified use of cluster munitions that landed just outside a Ukrainian hospital, pointing the finger of blame at Russia and calling for Russian forces to “stop using cluster munitions and end unlawful attacks with weapons that indiscriminately kill and maim”.

However, images and videos posted online demonstrate even wider use of these weapons in civilian areas. 

So according to Bellingcat, Russia has definitely used these 'illegal' weapons , and using someones Whatsapp account, and a few tik toks, theyve got proof
The Ukrainians might have used them too, but we arent going to examine that possibility....
But wait, Ukraine is eagerly awaiting its first delivery of US and UK HIMARS and M270 MLRS systems , whose primary rocket type is err, cluster sub munitions ....
But arent they 'illegal' ?
Only if Russia use them silly !

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M270_Multiple_Launch_Rocket_System#Selected_rocket_specifications

Bellingcat were also 'instrumental in proving' Russian chemical attacks in Syria, the downing of MH17 and their crowning achievement , Salisbury.
Not to say that Russia wasnt responsible for all these things, but Bellingcat starts at he 'Who' side first, then works backwards to find or construct the evidence.

 

 

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

That's one strange world you live in there. 

Call me cynical , but its called not believing the first thing you get told, by proven liars.

[oowee]

59 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

.
But wait, Ukraine is eagerly awaiting its first delivery of US and UK HIMARS and M270 MLRS systems , whose primary rocket type is err, cluster sub munitions ....
But arent they 'illegal' ?
Only if Russia use them silly !

Call me cynical , but its called not believing the first thing you get told, by proven liars.

Nothing wrong with using open source data be it Tik Tok or any other.

The M270's are going with M31 A1 unitary munitions. Would be better if it was a few more than 3 unit's to go along side the 4 from the US. 

[mick miller]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

That's one strange world you live in there. 

It's not me living in the strange world.

Russia Today. Propaganda!

Sky News. Unbiased journalisms.

Okay.

[Rewulf]

18 minutes ago, oowee said:

Nothing wrong with using open source data be it Tik Tok or any other.

So its OK to use a completely unverified source, that may even have been falsified or staged , and pass it off as proof of an allegation ?

18 minutes ago, oowee said:

The M270's are going with M31 A1 unitary munitions. Would be better if it was a few more than 3 unit's to go along side the 4 from the US. 

Not really my point , I was drawing the comparison, that Bellingcat use the Russian cluster munition use as a means to demonise them, whilst conveniently  ignoring Ukrainian use , and the fact that the US,UK and Germany are supplying a cluster rocket capable launcher ?
Interestingly, the Turks have M270s , and the Yanks wont supply them with cluster rockets either, so they just reverse engineered an M26 cluster rocket, and mass produced them....
So theres no way of the Ukrainians either doing the same, or getting some from Turkey is there ?

Nagorno Karabakh War

• Hundreds of cluster bombs were used by Azerbaijan in Nagorno Karabakh in 1992-94 in the course of the Nagorno-Karabakh War. An estimated 180 cluster bombs were dropped on the city of Stepanakert. As of 2010, 93 km² remain off-limits due to contamination with unexploded cluster ordnance. HALO Trust has made major contributions to the cleanup effort.,^[10][11]

First Chechen War, 1995

• Used by Russia, see also 1995 Shali cluster bomb attack

Croatia, 1995

• Used by Republic of Serbian Krajina,^[12] see also Zagreb rocket attacks.

Yugoslavia, 1999

• Used by the US, the UK and Netherlands.

About 2,000 cluster bombs containing 380,000 sub-munitions were dropped on Yugoslavia during the Operation Allied Force, in 1999, of which the Royal Air Force dropped 531 RBL755 cluster bombs.^[13][14]

On 7 May 1999, between the time of 11:30 and 11:40, a NATO attack was carried out with two containers of cluster bombs directed at Niš Airport, located at the end of the city. The bombs missed their target and fell near the city center. The bombs were scattered from the two containers and were carried by the wind and then fell in three locations in the central part of the city:

• The Pathology building next to the Medical Center of Nis in the south of the city,
• Next to the building of "Banovina" including the main market, bus station next to the Niš Fortress and "12th February" Health Centre
• Parking of "Niš Express" near river Nišava River.

Reports claimed that 15 civilians were killed, 8 civilians were seriously injured, 11 civilians had sustained minor injuries, 120 housing units were damaged and 47 were destroyed and that 15 cars were damaged.

Overall during the operation, at least 23 Serb civilians were killed by cluster munitions. At least six Serbs, including three children were killed by bomblets after the operation ended, and up to 23 square kilometres in six areas remain "cluster contaminated", according to Serbian government. The UK contributed £86,000 to the Serbian Mine Action Centre.^[13]

Second Chechen War

• Russia repeatedly fired cluster munitions into Chechnya.

Afghanistan, 2001 - 2002

• United States and other NATO countries used large numbers of cluster munitions during the initial stage of the operation. 1,228 cluster bombs containing 248,056 bomblets were used by the allies.^[15][16][17]

Iraq

A US naval F/A-18C Hornet launches from USS Nimitz to a mission in Southern Iraq. Among other weapons, the plane carries CBU-100 "Rockeye" cluster bombs.

• Used by the United States and the United Kingdom

1991: United States, France, and the United Kingdom dropped 61,000 cluster bombs, containing 20 million submunitions, on Iraq, according to the HRW.^[18]

2003-2006: United States and allies attacked Iraq with 13,000 cluster munitions, containing two million submunitions during Operation Iraqi Freedom, according to the HRW.^[19] At multiple times, coalition forces used cluster munitions in residential areas, and the country remains among the most contaminated by this day, bomblets posing a threat to both US military personnel in the area, and local civilians.^[20]

When these weapons were fired on Baghdad on April 7, 2003 many of the bomblets failed to explode on impact. They were picked up or stumbled on by their victims. The Pentagon presented a misleading picture during the war of the extent to which cluster weapons were being used and of the civilian casualties they were causing. Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told reporters on April 25, six days before President Bush declared major combat operations over, that the United States had used 1,500 cluster weapons and caused one civilian casualty.^[21]

[mick miller]

49 minutes ago, oowee said:

Nothing wrong with using open source data be it Tik Tok or any other.

The M270's are going with M31 A1 unitary munitions. Would be better if it was a few more than 3 unit's to go along side the 4 from the US. 

All this **** they're sending isn't worth a carrot, is costing a fortune, is resulting is a massive drop in living standards in Europe, putting families in real poverty, driving up fuel prices unnecessarily and will survive for exactly, glances at watch, about 1 hour after being tracked to it's final destination.

It's a failed policy that is resulting in death, destruction, misery, and suffering and for what? They're not 'European', they're not part of NATO, they don't do anything for us, whose investments are we all suffering to protect here? Why are we all so motivated about this one and not Syria, Yemen and [insert whatever other stupid **** is going on somewhere here, usually in the Middle-East]? Is it because they're not brown?

Rather than sanctions 'making Russia suffer' they appear to be doing quite the opposite. Sadly, only the old warmongers like Kissinger can see that it is demonstrably harming the West, therefore poor policy. Their second generation offspring however appear to be both malign and as thick as mince.

Time to be big, grown up boys and put the sticks down and sit round a table. Before it gets very, very silly.

And, if that means you end up with a smaller play pit, so be it.

Edited June 7, 2022 by mick miller

[Weihrauch17]

2 minutes ago, mick miller said:

All this **** they're sending isn't worth a carrot, is costing a fortune, is resulting is a massive drop in living standards in Europe, putting families in real poverty, driving up fuel prices unnecessarily and will survive for exactly, glances at watch, about 1 hour after being tracked to it's final destination.

It's a failed policy that is resulting in death, destruction, misery, and suffering and for what? They're not 'European', they're not part of NATO, they don't do anything for us, whose investments are we all suffering to protect here? Why are we all so motivated about this one and not Syria, Yemen and [insert whatever other stupid **** is going on somewhere here, usually in the Middle-East]? Is it because they're not brown?

Time to be big, grown up boys and put the sticks down and sit round a table. Before it gets very, very silly.

Totally agree.