Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Gordon R]

Quote

 You just can’t argue with that level of pig ignorant stupidity

Mungler - don't dress it up - just say it plain. 🙂

[Minky]

Reading through an amount of posts on this thread it seems as if they have been set by a foreign  power russia .... like when there was an American election.  Bots I  believe start posting a load of nonsense rubbish on forums and a load of brain deficients take all this  nonsense on board and suddenly hey presto you have a movement.  The last American election is a good example of this nonsense.   Twenty months on and the idiots still want to rerun the election because trump reckons he was robbed.   You try going to Russia or china and starting to say stuff like that.  Very soon you would be found after having a mysterious accident.  The only thing that will stop Putin is when he has a mysterious accident because like churchill said... you can fool some of the people all of the time and you can fool all of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.  Things will begin to change later in the year when the sanctions really start to grind the Russian economy down to dirt level and the Russian winter bites añd there aren't anymore conscripts left to be fodder.  Still they won't go cold because they'll have plenty of natural gas.

[Mungler]

4 hours ago, clangerman said:

and where is YOUR respect? would you like to explain what gives you the right to call people PIG IGNORANT and STUPID what makes you so superior you can abuse people while everyone else sticks to giving a opinion enlighten us 

You are confusing your opinion with fact.

When I set out the simple truths (above), they are not based on my opinion, they are based on simple bare facts and the truth.

 

4 hours ago, Stonepark said:

The truth is, if the Western Neocons had never caused a revolution\coup in 2014, none of this would ever have happened and Ukraine would have continued to be a stable country allied towards Russia and acting as a gas transport hub to Europe and no one would have died unnecessarily since 2014........

No, that is your opinion, that is neither fact nor truth.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Mungler

[JohnfromUK]

9 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Actually it is, that is why they democratically elected a government and president who the Western powers then organised a revolution against

That may have been so pre 2014, but not so more recently;

"In an April 2017 public opinion survey conducted by Rating Group Ukraine, 57 percent of Ukrainians polled ex­pressed a very cold or cold attitude toward Russia, as opposed to only 17 percent who expressed a very warm or warm attitude."

From this https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2017/10/18/how-ukraine-views-russia-and-the-west/

Like many countries and regions, (including Scotland and Northern Ireland, but parts of Spain etc as well) there are groups who favour different allegiances.  Russian involvement in Ukraine and Crimea has changed peoples views, as did Yanukovych when (against the majority of Ukrainian) he rejected the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement and instead chose (against the Ukrainian parliaments majority) closer ties with Russia.  That led to the so called Revolution of Dignity.

The bottom line remains that Putin didn’t need to invade and the present conflict would be over tomorrow if Russian soldiers went back over their border and withdrew.

[clangerman]

6 hours ago, Mungler said:

You are confusing your opinion with fact.

When I set out the simple truths (above), they are not based on my opinion, they are based on simple bare facts and the truth.

and when it was decided the rule not to abuse people applied to everyone else but YOU? 

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, clangerman said:

and when it was decided the rule not to abuse people applied to everyone else but YOU? 

I was passing comment that this was quite possibly one of the daftest things I’ve read yet. Indeed, having re-read it, I am still of that opinion. 

“let’s not miss out the biggest truth of all if the west was not fuelling the fire it would probably be over already so some of their blood is on our hands!’

[Stonepark]

11 hours ago, Minky said:

 Things will begin to change later in the year when the sanctions really start to grind the Russian economy down to dirt level and the Russian winter bites añd there aren't anymore conscripts left to be fodder.  Still they won't go cold because they'll have plenty of natural gas.

That was the Neocons plan for the Russian economy from the start and it ain't happening.

Russia is an exporting nation, there is nothing the West has it either does not produce itself or it cannot get from China, India or another non western aligned country. China, India, african countries etc are never going to accept holding their population in poverty to satisfy the Wests current mental illness believing that they should dictate to the rest of the planet and as such are going to be buying Russian gas, oil, fertiliser, minerals, finsihed goods, arms etc no matter what Europe and the USA does.

Given China, India and sub saharan africa alone are 3.5 billion people plus, Russia is literally laughing all the way to the bank.

If you haven't noticed, Biden is currently on a begging tour of the Middle East trying to get more oil and LNG production to try and replace that which is now "sanctioned" and unavailable to the West.

 

On the Army, Russia has committed something like 10% of its military to this action, nearly all professional trained soldiers and all being rotated in and out of the front lines on a nearly daily basis to minimise PTSD. They are grinding away at the Ukranian army who are retreating West over virtually the whole front line. Even with every NATO country shipping what "spare" arms they can, Ukraine cannot match the combat intensity the Russians are keeping up and as such Ukraine is running out of professional manpower, arms and ammunition and are at some point going to fold, no matter what Zelensky wishes.

[12gauge82]

49 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

That was the Neocons plan for the Russian economy from the start and it ain't happening.

Russia is an exporting nation, there is nothing the West has it either does not produce itself or it cannot get from China, India or another non western aligned country. China, India, african countries etc are never going to accept holding their population in poverty to satisfy the Wests current mental illness believing that they should dictate to the rest of the planet and as such are going to be buying Russian gas, oil, fertiliser, minerals, finsihed goods, arms etc no matter what Europe and the USA does.

Given China, India and sub saharan africa alone are 3.5 billion people plus, Russia is literally laughing all the way to the bank.

If you haven't noticed, Biden is currently on a begging tour of the Middle East trying to get more oil and LNG production to try and replace that which is now "sanctioned" and unavailable to the West.

 

On the Army, Russia has committed something like 10% of its military to this action, nearly all professional trained soldiers and all being rotated in and out of the front lines on a nearly daily basis to minimise PTSD. They are grinding away at the Ukranian army who are retreating West over virtually the whole front line. Even with every NATO country shipping what "spare" arms they can, Ukraine cannot match the combat intensity the Russians are keeping up and as such Ukraine is running out of professional manpower, arms and ammunition and are at some point going to fold, no matter what Zelensky wishes.

Here's a simple question. 

Do you agree with Russia invading Ukraine or not? 

[Stonepark]

3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

That may have been so pre 2014, but not so more recently;

"In an April 2017 public opinion survey conducted by Rating Group Ukraine, 57 percent of Ukrainians polled ex­pressed a very cold or cold attitude toward Russia, as opposed to only 17 percent who expressed a very warm or warm attitude."

From this https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2017/10/18/how-ukraine-views-russia-and-the-west/

Like many countries and regions, (including Scotland and Northern Ireland, but parts of Spain etc as well) there are groups who favour different allegiances.  Russian involvement in Ukraine and Crimea has changed peoples views, as did Yanukovych when (against the majority of Ukrainian) he rejected the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement and instead chose (against the Ukrainian parliaments majority) closer ties with Russia.  That led to the so called Revolution of Dignity.

The bottom line remains that Putin didn’t need to invade and the present conflict would be over tomorrow if Russian soldiers went back over their border and withdrew.

taken just prior to the revolution/coup....

https://ratinggroup.ua/en/research/ukraine/elektoralnye_nastroeniya_grazhdan_oktyabr_2013.html

The above survey included all of Ukraine with no evidence of bias as no one had lost people, territory or face until that point.  The 2017 survey Brookings refer to which is post the secession of the Dombass and Crimea and appears slanted to give certain results. Lies, Dam Lies and statistics comes to mind......., there is not 57% of the people in the Donbass or Crimea or the other predominantly russian supporting areas expressing a cold or very cold attitude to Russia.....

The survey clearly shows that the 2010 elected president Yankovych would be reelected and he campaigned on a Russian re-alignment, as against the previous President who was Pro EU and was jailed for corruption. Yanukovych was not following the majority of the Western Ukranians (including Kiev) (Pro EU, Pro WEF) wishes, but he was pleasing the Eastern ukrainians from where he came from and who wish to be closer to Russia and who held the democratic majority at the time.

Saying Putin didn't need to invade is like saying you would stand aside and let someone attack and rape your wife and and then only take action on the perpetrator afterwards as until that point he hadn't done it yet, even though he had walked right up to you brandishing a knife and shouting he was going to do it.

Ukraine has spent the last 8 years arming itself and training soldiers to take back the scecceded regions of the Donbass and potentially Crimea. Russia has for 8 years been clearly telling them to cease and desist, and uphold the Minsk agreement which Ukraine had agreed to, whilst the West has been encouraging them onwards towards a fight.

Any 'delusions' the conflict would be over are just that, delusions - Ukraine is not willing to give up the seceeded regions and as such all Putin has done is instead of the West supporting Ukrainans slaughtering the Russian supporting Ukrainians, he has made it an "even" fight and is mainly keeping civilians out of the line of fire.

The bottom line is that unless Zelensky and the undemocratically elected "Ukranian" government (they never included Crimea or the Donbass since 2012 in elections) opt for a ceasefire and had either uphold the Minsk agreement or abdicate and held open and honest free elections for all of Ukraine (including the Donbass and Crimea) the war continue until Ukraine folds and Russia wins.

 

 

 

 

[JohnfromUK]

You and I clearly have different views and believe different sources of information from the wide range of (often contradictory) 'facts'.  I suspect we will have to 'agree to differ'.

For me it is clear (and it is NOT in my view a case of "stand aside and let someone attack and rape your wife and and then only take action on the perpetrator afterwards as until that point he hadn't done it yet, even though he had walked right up to you brandishing a knife and shouting he was going to do it") that Russia has invaded another sovereign country and continues a ruthless and sustained assault on that country including its civillans and non military infrastructure;  there was never any threat to Russia.  Ukraine (nor Sweden, Finland, even Switzerland) had any immediate plans to join NATO.  NATO is a defensive organisation and has never threatened Russia. NATO’s official policy is that "the Alliance does not seek confrontation and poses no threat to Russia." NATO didn’t invade Georgia; NATO didn’t invade Ukraine. Russia did. 

5 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Putin didn’t need to invade and the present conflict would be over tomorrow if Russian soldiers went back over their border and withdrew.

That is what Putin needs to do.  The ball is in his court to solve this.

Edited July 16, 2022 by JohnfromUK

[Gordon R]

Quote

you would stand aside and let someone attack and rape your wife and and then only take action on the perpetrator afterwards as until that point he hadn't done it yet

Got to be honest, I find the analogy in very poor taste, more so because Russian soldiers are actually doing just that..

[12gauge82]

7 hours ago, Stonepark said:

taken just prior to the revolution/coup....

https://ratinggroup.ua/en/research/ukraine/elektoralnye_nastroeniya_grazhdan_oktyabr_2013.html

The above survey included all of Ukraine with no evidence of bias as no one had lost people, territory or face until that point.  The 2017 survey Brookings refer to which is post the secession of the Dombass and Crimea and appears slanted to give certain results. Lies, Dam Lies and statistics comes to mind......., there is not 57% of the people in the Donbass or Crimea or the other predominantly russian supporting areas expressing a cold or very cold attitude to Russia.....

The survey clearly shows that the 2010 elected president Yankovych would be reelected and he campaigned on a Russian re-alignment, as against the previous President who was Pro EU and was jailed for corruption. Yanukovych was not following the majority of the Western Ukranians (including Kiev) (Pro EU, Pro WEF) wishes, but he was pleasing the Eastern ukrainians from where he came from and who wish to be closer to Russia and who held the democratic majority at the time.

Saying Putin didn't need to invade is like saying you would stand aside and let someone attack and rape your wife and and then only take action on the perpetrator afterwards as until that point he hadn't done it yet, even though he had walked right up to you brandishing a knife and shouting he was going to do it.

Ukraine has spent the last 8 years arming itself and training soldiers to take back the scecceded regions of the Donbass and potentially Crimea. Russia has for 8 years been clearly telling them to cease and desist, and uphold the Minsk agreement which Ukraine had agreed to, whilst the West has been encouraging them onwards towards a fight.

Any 'delusions' the conflict would be over are just that, delusions - Ukraine is not willing to give up the seceeded regions and as such all Putin has done is instead of the West supporting Ukrainans slaughtering the Russian supporting Ukrainians, he has made it an "even" fight and is mainly keeping civilians out of the line of fire.

The bottom line is that unless Zelensky and the undemocratically elected "Ukranian" government (they never included Crimea or the Donbass since 2012 in elections) opt for a ceasefire and had either uphold the Minsk agreement or abdicate and held open and honest free elections for all of Ukraine (including the Donbass and Crimea) the war continue until Ukraine folds and Russia wins.

 

 

 

 

Sure, that's why putin immediately moved on Kiev when he invaded. 

[Minky]

7 hours ago, Stonepark said:

That was the Neocons plan for the Russian economy from the start and it ain't happening.

Russia is an exporting nation, there is nothing the West has it either does not produce itself or it cannot get from China, India or another non western aligned country. China, India, african countries etc are never going to accept holding their population in poverty to satisfy the Wests current mental illness believing that they should dictate to the rest of the planet and as such are going to be buying Russian gas, oil, fertiliser, minerals, finsihed goods, arms etc no matter what Europe and the USA does.

Given China, India and sub saharan africa alone are 3.5 billion people plus, Russia is literally laughing all the way to the bank.

If you haven't noticed, Biden is currently on a begging tour of the Middle East trying to get more oil and LNG production to try and replace that which is now "sanctioned" and unavailable to the West.

 

On the Army, Russia has committed something like 10% of its military to this action, nearly all professional trained soldiers and all being rotated in and out of the front lines on a nearly daily basis to minimise PTSD. They are grinding away at the Ukranian army who are retreating West over virtually the whole front line. Even with every NATO country shipping what "spare" arms they can, Ukraine cannot match the combat intensity the Russians are keeping up and as such Ukraine is running out of professional manpower, arms and ammunition and are at some point going to fold, no matter what Zelensky wishes.

The way a lot of the post are written they are so long as to try and bamboozle anyone reading them as total nonsense.   Are you all Russian sympathizers or something.  This country is ukraine. The russians have invaded Ukrainian territory. They are killing, murdering civilians and that include the Russian speaking inhabitants of areas that they have invaded.  And the Russian army is not professional soldiers, they are mostly conscripts from far flung rural areas.  At the end of the day what ever nonsense some people are posting on here the bomb and bullet on the batlefied will decide the matter.  The posters that keep posting all of this nonsense and the conspiracy theory merchants should be banned from the site. This is a shooting hunting forum and thats how it should be.

[ordnance]

7 hours ago, Stonepark said:

taken just prior to the revolution/coup....

https://ratinggroup.ua/en/research/ukraine/elektoralnye_nastroeniya_grazhdan_oktyabr_2013.html

The above survey included all of Ukraine with no evidence of bias as no one had lost people, territory or face until that point.  The 2017 survey Brookings refer to which is post the secession of the Dombass and Crimea and appears slanted to give certain results. Lies, Dam Lies and statistics comes to mind......., there is not 57% of the people in the Donbass or Crimea or the other predominantly russian supporting areas expressing a cold or very cold attitude to Russia.....

The survey clearly shows that the 2010 elected president Yankovych would be reelected and he campaigned on a Russian re-alignment, as against the previous President who was Pro EU and was jailed for corruption. Yanukovych was not following the majority of the Western Ukranians (including Kiev) (Pro EU, Pro WEF) wishes, but he was pleasing the Eastern ukrainians from where he came from and who wish to be closer to Russia and who held the democratic majority at the time.

Saying Putin didn't need to invade is like saying you would stand aside and let someone attack and rape your wife and and then only take action on the perpetrator afterwards as until that point he hadn't done it yet, even though he had walked right up to you brandishing a knife and shouting he was going to do it.

Ukraine has spent the last 8 years arming itself and training soldiers to take back the scecceded regions of the Donbass and potentially Crimea. Russia has for 8 years been clearly telling them to cease and desist, and uphold the Minsk agreement which Ukraine had agreed to, whilst the West has been encouraging them onwards towards a fight.

Any 'delusions' the conflict would be over are just that, delusions - Ukraine is not willing to give up the seceeded regions and as such all Putin has done is instead of the West supporting Ukrainans slaughtering the Russian supporting Ukrainians, he has made it an "even" fight and is mainly keeping civilians out of the line of fire.

The bottom line is that unless Zelensky and the undemocratically elected "Ukranian" government (they never included Crimea or the Donbass since 2012 in elections) opt for a ceasefire and had either uphold the Minsk agreement or abdicate and held open and honest free elections for all of Ukraine (including the Donbass and Crimea) the war continue until Ukraine folds and Russia wins.

 

 

 

 

Yeah it's the victims (Ukraine) fault not the invaders 🤔

[oowee]

10 hours ago, Stonepark said:

That was the Neocons plan for the Russian economy from the start and it ain't happening.

Russia is an exporting nation, there is nothing the West has it either does not produce itself or it cannot get from China, India or another non western aligned country. China, India, african countries etc are never going to accept holding their population in poverty to satisfy the Wests current mental illness believing that they should dictate to the rest of the planet and as such are going to be buying Russian gas, oil, fertiliser, minerals, finsihed goods, arms etc no matter what Europe and the USA does.

Given China, India and sub saharan africa alone are 3.5 billion people plus, Russia is literally laughing all the way to the bank.

If you haven't noticed, Biden is currently on a begging tour of the Middle East trying to get more oil and LNG production to try and replace that which is now "sanctioned" and unavailable to the West.

 

On the Army, Russia has committed something like 10% of its military to this action, nearly all professional trained soldiers and all being rotated in and out of the front lines on a nearly daily basis to minimise PTSD. They are grinding away at the Ukranian army who are retreating West over virtually the whole front line. Even with every NATO country shipping what "spare" arms they can, Ukraine cannot match the combat intensity the Russians are keeping up and as such Ukraine is running out of professional manpower, arms and ammunition and are at some point going to fold, no matter what Zelensky wishes.

It is happening. The recent new call for a war footing for the economy is evidence. Inflation is also very high although it looks artificially low when compared to the west by virtue of the surplus of fuels that the country cannot sell.  

Russia cannot easily sell to China and India. Oil cannot be sold without ships to move it, they don't exist. If they are built they will be built for the west to move LNG. They cannot sell gas without liquifying it, they have neither the technology to do it or the ships to transport it if they could. 

 

[Stonepark]

3 hours ago, ordnance said:

Yeah it's the victims (Ukraine) fault not the invaders 🤔

Ukraine (Kiev) are agressors, they have just been out agressed by Russia.... why people don't understand that Ukraine was in the process of mounting an invasion of the Donbass to take it back forceably against the secceded areas and this was a major escalation of the ongoing civil war which had pretty much been a stalemate since 2014.

10 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Here's a simple question. 

Do you agree with Russia invading Ukraine or not? 

I agree with Russia securing the Donbass for the people who live there who have opted not to be part of a undemocratic government and country.  People have the right to self determination after a coup/revolution, the Donbass made the decision to secede, Kiev refused to accept this and a low intensity civil war was in progress.

As Kiev Government is operated by extremists and will not agree to the Donbas doing it's own thing, Russia, now has to force the Kiev Government to fold in order to avoid a continuing civil war and is in the process of doing so by degrading its military to a point it cannot continue to fight.

 

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

It is happening. The recent new call for a war footing for the economy is evidence. Inflation is also very high although it looks artificially low when compared to the west by virtue of the surplus of fuels that the country cannot sell.  

Russia cannot easily sell to China and India. Oil cannot be sold without ships to move it, they don't exist. If they are built they will be built for the west to move LNG. They cannot sell gas without liquifying it, they have neither the technology to do it or the ships to transport it if they could. 

 

The war footing is to have factories provide munitions and supplies 24/7 and is not a call up of reserves or a full war economy.

The West has tried to cripple oil tankers through refusing to insure, however, the West now only insures some 60% of marine shipping, the Greeks and others who ships are internaltionally flagged are just getting insurance from elsewhere such as Russia, China and India.

Russia has laid pipelines for gas both to the West and the East and is expanding these as we speak and getting the gas to where it is needed is not difficult, as they do not need to liquify it to transport it, unlike the West (especially Europe) who are having difficulties in obtaining a alternative supply.

[Stonepark]

10 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

You and I clearly have different views and believe different sources of information from the wide range of (often contradictory) 'facts'.  I suspect we will have to 'agree to differ'.

For me it is clear (and it is NOT in my view a case of "stand aside and let someone attack and rape your wife and and then only take action on the perpetrator afterwards as until that point he hadn't done it yet, even though he had walked right up to you brandishing a knife and shouting he was going to do it") that Russia has invaded another sovereign country and continues a ruthless and sustained assault on that country including its civillans and non military infrastructure;  there was never any threat to Russia.  Ukraine (nor Sweden, Finland, even Switzerland) had any immediate plans to join NATO.  NATO is a defensive organisation and has never threatened Russia. NATO’s official policy is that "the Alliance does not seek confrontation and poses no threat to Russia." NATO didn’t invade Georgia; NATO didn’t invade Ukraine. Russia did. 

That is what Putin needs to do.  The ball is in his court to solve this.

Agreed we both have differing points of view and I have been trying to post independant (non-biased) links where possible for people to get views that are not reported by the MSM who are clearly following a pro Kiev agenda.

Putin, indeed has the ball and he is going to carry it until Ukraine is sufficently defeated militarily to not be a problem for the independant republic of Donbass for the forseeable future. If this means he has to not only degrade the army but also the Kiev government and elites, he is going to do so.

If Ukraine wants to stop this, they simply have to call a ceasefire and implement the Minsk accords or a new version of them and leave the Donbass to self govern as they have been doing since 2014. Unfortuneately as Kiev is controlled by extremists, that is unlikely to happen. Bear in mind the Donbass and Crimea were not part of any election of the current kiev government and in their eyes is illigitimate.

Forcing the people of the Donbass to reintegrate into Ukraine (as is Zelensky's goal) is no different from trying to force the Republic of Ireland to reintegrate into the UK, it ain't going to happen without a major fight and would be the closest parallel today. The Minsk accords being the equivalent of the Anglo - Irish treaty.

[Stonepark]

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/proxy-war-has-no-exit-strategy

[Mice!]

8 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Agreed we both have differing points of view and I have been trying to post independant (non-biased) links where possible for people to get views that are not reported by the MSM who are clearly following a pro Kiev agenda.

Putin, indeed has the ball and he is going to carry it until Ukraine is sufficently defeated militarily to not be a problem for the independant republic of Donbass for the forseeable future. If this means he has to not only degrade the army but also the Kiev government and elites, he is going to do so.

If Ukraine wants to stop this, they simply have to call a ceasefire and implement the Minsk accords or a new version of them and leave the Donbass to self govern as they have been doing since 2014. Unfortuneately as Kiev is controlled by extremists, that is unlikely to happen. Bear in mind the Donbass and Crimea were not part of any election of the current kiev government and in their eyes is illigitimate.

Forcing the people of the Donbass to reintegrate into Ukraine (as is Zelensky's goal) is no different from trying to force the Republic of Ireland to reintegrate into the UK, it ain't going to happen without a major fight and would be the closest parallel today. The Minsk accords being the equivalent of the Anglo - Irish treaty.

Very good posts.

You don't have to agree with what Russia is doing to know there was more going on than what we were told.

[Mungler]

Pages of nonsense desperately trying justify and reverse engineer a madman’s invasion of a neighbour and where the madman himself has given half a dozen differing reasons already.

Note: from the pro Putin supporters, the possibility that Putin is a megalomaniac who wants to put the Soviet Union back together just doesn’t appear on the list of reasons for invasion. Strange that - thought it might get a mention in passing eh?

[12gauge82]

12 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Ukraine (Kiev) are agressors, they have just been out agressed by Russia.... why people don't understand that Ukraine was in the process of mounting an invasion of the Donbass to take it back forceably against the secceded areas and this was a major escalation of the ongoing civil war which had pretty much been a stalemate since 2014.

I agree with Russia securing the Donbass for the people who live there who have opted not to be part of a undemocratic government and country.  People have the right to self determination after a coup/revolution, the Donbass made the decision to secede, Kiev refused to accept this and a low intensity civil war was in progress.

As Kiev Government is operated by extremists and will not agree to the Donbas doing it's own thing, Russia, now has to force the Kiev Government to fold in order to avoid a continuing civil war and is in the process of doing so by degrading its military to a point it cannot continue to fight.

 

Totally warped view. 

[Mungler]

16 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Totally warped view. 

 

He’s too far gone down that rabbit hole.

 

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, Mungler said:

 

He’s too far gone down that rabbit hole.

 

Agreed, it's why I couldn't be bothered to give an in depth answer to his post. Anyone who believes Putins actions are okay, is not going to be convinced otherwise with reasoned and logical debate as their viewpoint is completely the opposite. It's rather like adding 2+2 and coming up with 48472192748302849472

[ordnance]

19 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Ukraine (Kiev) are agressors, they have just been out agressed by Russia.... why people don't understand that Ukraine was in the process of mounting an invasion of the Donbass to take it back forceably against the secceded areas and this was a major escalation of the ongoing civil war which had pretty much been a stalemate since 2014.

I agree with Russia securing the Donbass for the people who live there who have opted not to be part of a undemocratic government and country.  People have the right to self determination after a coup/revolution, the Donbass made the decision to secede, Kiev refused to accept this and a low intensity civil war was in progress.

As Kiev Government is operated by extremists and will not agree to the Donbas doing it's own thing, Russia, now has to force the Kiev Government to fold in order to avoid a continuing civil war and is in the process of doing so by degrading its military to a point it cannot continue to fight.

 

The Donbas is part of Ukraine, Why would the Ukraine government agree to them doing their own thing. As for Ukraine planning to take back occupied territories I think that's Russian propaganda, but even if it was true they have every right to try and take back part's of their country occupied by Russia.