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Walker570
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Hello, I can only say the FAC 22 air rifle is the most common, at FAC power 177 out to 60 yards I think would go through rabbits, magpies etc where as the 22 and 25 would hit hard, as above 177 will use more air, I cannot see the point of a sub 12ft LLB  .25 due to the trajectory , my friends looking at a mid range FAC rifle in 22 for a couple of permissions where his HMR would not be suitable and FAC air would be much quieter as it's a 100 yards back garden to open fields, cheers

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A .177 fac (normal pellets and speeds) uses much less air than a .22 fac air  same pellets and speeds .and massively less than a .25 fac 

Think of it like this .

First at sub 12 - energies the Same at 11.5 fpe .A   5.5 mm  bore is roughly 20 % bigger than a 4.5 mm bore so you can expect around a 20 % increase in shot count (which we see  in published shot count from manufacturers) 

But at fac the muzzle energies are not the same .A .177 8.4 grn pellet  At 900 fps is around 15.5 fpe 

A .22 16 grn pellet at 900 fps is around 29 fpe so we have a pellet that is twice as heavy  giving twice the power . So an increase of 100%  - Using only a 20 % bore diameter advantage .

Its therefore   easy to calculate  that the 177 fac will have a shot count around 80% higher than the .22  which we see in real life .

As for high speed .177 pellets .

I drive 8.44 grn jsb s at 975 fps and they are very accurate out to 70 yds with no instability .also the energy dump of such a fragile fast pellet on quarry is terrific and pellet pass through isn't a problem (if they do exit its with very little residual  energy ) A heavy .22 or 25 just go right through every thing and into the next county (making elevated shots too risky  imo.) 

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So the 177FAC does have a niche then. I control corvids and tree rats in a farmyard and the far end of the big slurry pit is 55yrds away so pushing a clean kill with my standard 22 AA S200.  Very frustrating when a target sits down that bottom corner and the 17hmr, although I have permission to use it there, it does make a bit too much noise alongside the cow shed and the 22RF likely to whizz off the concrete to places unknown.  Thoughts Ultrastu ??

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The standard argument on the Agf is you wouldn't be able to sell a FAC 177, but folk do have them, and they rarely come up for sale.

Then it's that 22 gives more power, but if you don't want the pellet going a hundred  yards and still holding lots of energy then why not use a 177 in fac.

@Ttfjlc who is the chap with the FAC r10 in 177, says its his favourite rifle.

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I can assure you that at 60 yards my .22 at 28ftlb rarely exits a pigeon with much energy (JSB Jumbo) and certainly will not travel far if it does (there's 2 fields behind before any public right of way anyway), perfect for sitting pigeons and chest shots as I'm nowhere near good enough for headshots at such ranges. I also think that few FAC .177's come up for sale as very few are sold in comparison the the larger offerings. But If Stu reckons .177 FAC are a good option I would go with what he says, he forgets more about Air Rifle balistics every day than I ever knew.

Edited by bruno22rf
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5 hours ago, Walker570 said:

So the 177FAC does have a niche then. I control corvids and tree rats in a farmyard and the far end of the big slurry pit is 55yrds away so pushing a clean kill with my standard 22 AA S200.  Very frustrating when a target sits down that bottom corner and the 17hmr, although I have permission to use it there, it does make a bit too much noise alongside the cow shed and the 22RF likely to whizz off the concrete to places unknown.  Thoughts Ultrastu ??

Hey walker .

55 yds is a cake walk for a decent fac .177 

There isn't a massive amount of energy at that range so accuracy  will be key .so head and spine shots on crows (with a .25 fac  a center mass shot is good  .22 maybe depends on pellet  really ) 

But .177 fac nice and safe with jsb 8.4s 

You won't get much if any pass through at that range .

A .22 and .25 will go right through a crow .and carry on .

Also come 80 yds and your sub 12 .22 will have more energy 16 grns  (presuming a miss ) than the .177 fac (8.4s ) 

So really they are a safer tool than even a sub 12 .22  beyond 80 yds (certainly at 100 plus there is no doubt ) 

 

Also presuming you zero your 8.4s at 45 yds and they are doing around 950 fps   thedrop at 55 yds will be about 1 inch .

You can basically aim bang on from 15 to 50 yds .that's a pretty flat trajectory  .in my opinion. 

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When I'm decoying pigeons over stubble I set my deeks around 25 - 35 yds .

Any bird that lands even out to 55 yds   

I aim bang on - shoot for just above the keel  as quickly as possible  (they don't give you more than a couple of seconds  usually  ) and the job is done .

I can set the mag on 6x or 7x .for a wind fov. And fast target acquisition. 

The .177 fac is my fastest projectile I have and the time to target is very fast much more so than the .25 cal at 880 fps .

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OK. Well I would recommend either a bsa (obviously  ) but they do seem to shoot .177 jsb ' s well at high speed .and certainly  not every manufacturer/barrel can say that .

And possibly a bullpup .so you can get barrel length  and speed and shot count up .I use a standard  sized bsa scorpion  and get around 30 yds .but an r10 would give e more shots .

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A .177 FAC springer is an option.  HW80 or Diana 48 or 50 for example. 

I've never had a problem with pass through in .177.  It has happened but the quarry is still dead.  

A few years back I watched a chap shoot very well at HFT with a his 'new' second hand HW80.  At some point we all got chronoed; the thing was putting out well over 12 ft-lb!   Bloke had a fit and almost ran back to his car to dismantle the blasted thing.  Obviously his score card went in the bin.  

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6 hours ago, Wharf Rat said:

A .177 FAC springer is an option.  HW80 or Diana 48 or 50 for example. 

I've never had a problem with pass through in .177.  It has happened but the quarry is still dead.  

A few years back I watched a chap shoot very well at HFT with a his 'new' second hand HW80.  At some point we all got chronoed; the thing was putting out well over 12 ft-lb!   Bloke had a fit and almost ran back to his car to dismantle the blasted thing.  Obviously his score card went in the bin.  

They were designed to do 18ftlbs...... then downrated for sale in the UK.

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I think we've had this conversation before. "Low" velocity 40 grain 22LR rounds run with a muzzle energy of 45 ftlb. Virtually silent too. Not enough of a differential to make higher powered air rifles worth the hassle for me, but I'm subject to different safety and licensing considerations.

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7 hours ago, Wharf Rat said:

A .177 FAC springer is an option.  HW80 or Diana 48 or 50 for example. 

I've never had a problem with pass through in .177.  It has happened but the quarry is still dead.  

A few years back I watched a chap shoot very well at HFT with a his 'new' second hand HW80.  At some point we all got chronoed; the thing was putting out well over 12 ft-lb!   Bloke had a fit and almost ran back to his car to dismantle the blasted thing.  Obviously his score card went in the bin.  

That might work .  I will have a word with the lads at Solware, see what they have.  That certainly solves any shot count problem as well. Thanks for all your help.

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On 17/06/2022 at 00:24, Ultrastu said:

A .177 fac (normal pellets and speeds) uses much less air than a .22 fac air  same pellets and speeds .and massively less than a .25 fac 

Think of it like this .

First at sub 12 - energies the Same at 11.5 fpe .A   5.5 mm  bore is roughly 20 % bigger than a 4.5 mm bore so you can expect around a 20 % increase in shot count (which we see  in published shot count from manufacturers) 

But at fac the muzzle energies are not the same .A .177 8.4 grn pellet  At 900 fps is around 15.5 fpe 

A .22 16 grn pellet at 900 fps is around 29 fpe so we have a pellet that is twice as heavy  giving twice the power . So an increase of 100%  - Using only a 20 % bore diameter advantage .

Its therefore   easy to calculate  that the 177 fac will have a shot count around 80% higher than the .22  which we see in real life .

As for high speed .177 pellets .

I drive 8.44 grn jsb s at 975 fps and they are very accurate out to 70 yds with no instability .also the energy dump of such a fragile fast pellet on quarry is terrific and pellet pass through isn't a problem (if they do exit its with very little residual  energy ) A heavy .22 or 25 just go right through every thing and into the next county (making elevated shots too risky  imo.) 

wi would have to disagree.

The 177 is inherently a less efficient Caliber than 22 and 22 less than 25 when judged on energy used to achieve a certain velocity and thereafter of retained energy downrange which is more important, not outright velocity.

 

Said differently a 12ftlbs Springer 177 uses the same volume of air less efficently than a 12ftlbs 22, so you get a correspondingly lower power in 177 for the same compression volume and compression cycle, hence not being able to put a sub 12ftlbs 177 gas ram in a 22 as it takes it over the limit.

 

In a 12ftlbs PCP, all the manufacturers publish their data and expected shot counts and 177 is consistently 20% or so below 22 for (normally) less energy.

 

At FAC, the difference continues with one important aspect as 177 pellets are pushed closer to supersonic (1070ft\sec), their efficiency in air used starts to drop precipitously as energy tops out at around 26ftlbs, which 22 achieves sub 900ft\sec.

At your stated velocity of 900 for JSB Exact Heavies,

100yards Downrange a 900ft\sec 177 10.3gr 18.5ftlb  will have 596 and 8.1ftlbs, a 22 900ft\sec 18gr 32.4ftlbs will have 610ftsec and 14.9ftlbs.

 

The only upside to a 177 using pellets in fac is arguably it uses less air for the same velocity as a 22, however for the same energy, 177 uses far more air per shot than 22 or 25 and ultimately energy is what counts.

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47 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

The only upside to a 177 using pellets in fac is arguably it uses less air for the same velocity as a 22

That was exactly what Stu said on the first paragraph you quoted.

If you were looking for down range power then you wouldn't be looking at 177, you'd probably go straight to a 25, but a FAC 25 in a farm yard isn't likely to be ideal.

But 50-70 yards with a starting energy of 18-20ft/lb and sub 12 177 accuracy 👌 

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Stone Park.. Good post .apart from saying you disagree  with my above post   you actually  didn't what you have said is spot on apart from you last line (ultimately  its energy that counts ) I don't think it is and its often why people push for more and more and end up with a . 357 or something and still wonder why they can't  achieve  what they expect. 

I believe  its precision and understanding the projectile and your quarry that ultimately counts ..

Oh and no one expects to shoot a .177 fac at 30 fpe the same as a .22 cal or 50 fpe the same as a .25 cal .that doesn't make any sense . 20 fpe is really the max for 177 and 16 - 18 is better (and is what any manufacturer  will set it at )  and hence if you have  say 2  air arms  s510 s one in 177 (17 fpe ) and one in .22  (30 fpe )  the shot counts will be  around 50 for the 177 and 30  for the  .22 

If you reduce the .22 down to 17 fpe it will do 20 % more shot that the .177 so 60 shot perhaps  .

I hope this  clears it up .

As for springer .177  there is only one option in my mind and that would be tx200 at 16 fpe  with 8.4s 

 

3 minutes ago, Mice! said:

That was exactly what Stu said on the first paragraph you quoted.

If you were looking for down range power then you wouldn't be looking at 177, you'd probably go straight to a 25, but a FAC 25 in a farm yard isn't likely to be ideal.

But 50-70 yards with a starting energy of 18-20ft/lb and sub 12 177 accuracy 👌 

😀👍👍👍

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11 minutes ago, telf said:

I tried some cb longs in my LR , shooting at 30ft lb , accurate out to 50/60yds ( didnt try them any further ) and quiet as a mouses ****

And that is the answer. Except that CB’s will not feed from my BRNO magazine and have to be loaded singly, which is a bit of a faff.

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.22fac air is my favourite FAC gun it will do everything and more than .22lr 

my fx crown is running at 43 ftlbs now with 23gr  slugs or 41 ftlbs with 21 gr slugs . Within seconds I can run this gun under 12 ftlbs including adjusting scope . I have looked at .177 air but can’t see any advantage over .22 FAC air 

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