Wales holiday homes

[old'un]

couple of years ago a friend of ours bought a small two bed cottage near Barmouth Wales as a holiday home, the council tax was £1500 per annum, last year they put it up to £3000 as its classed as a second home/holiday home, now they are talking of increasing it next year to £6000.

The Welsh Government says its to stop properties being bought for holiday homes, they also hope the move will force second home owners to sell up, is this a good move by them?

[Rim Fire]

Depends if your the home owner or someone local  looking to get on the property ladder 

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Rim Fire

[old'un]

11 minutes ago, Rim Fire said:

Depends if your the home owner or someone local  looking to get on the property ladder 

 

our friends have spoken to a number of residents in the village and they think it will be a bad thing for local employment and the money that is bought into the area, plus they feel it will not help youngsters as most are on low pay and unable to get a mortgage to buy the vacant holiday homes.

I think the Welsh government may have shot themselves in the foot with this one.

[Stonepark]

Arguably yes, historically property was local and local markets determined prices and housing costs reflected local wages. Modern transport allowed that relationship to be broken down.

In some areas in NW Scotland, up to 75% of homes are holiday cottages, either private or let out, very few are occupied for more than a few months per year and most sit empty all winter.

The locals have to move away because there is no affordable accommodation. Average wages are about £23k, but houses go for £350k plus and then local businesses close because no custom during winter and cycle repeats, getting more extreme.

 

It is a difficult one but charging holiday house owners a 'business' rate of tax is probably the fairest way to discourage over paying for property and driving local populations down.

[old'un]

27 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Arguably yes, historically property was local and local markets determined prices and housing costs reflected local wages. Modern transport allowed that relationship to be broken down.

In some areas in NW Scotland, up to 75% of homes are holiday cottages, either private or let out, very few are occupied for more than a few months per year and most sit empty all winter.

The locals have to move away because there is no affordable accommodation. Average wages are about £23k, but houses go for £350k plus and then local businesses close because no custom during winter and cycle repeats, getting more extreme.

 

It is a difficult one but charging holiday house owners a 'business' rate of tax is probably the fairest way to discourage over paying for property and driving local populations down.

 

yes its possible this tax increase may force a lot of people to sell up but it will also have the possible knock-on effect of bringing the value of properties down, whether this helps youngsters to get on the property ladder I am not so sure.

The property needed a couple of grand spending on it and was up for sale at £120k, it had been on the market for nearly 12 months and in that time the seller had not had one offer on the property.

[oowee]

I have just read the proposals and thinking what an absolute nightmare policy to administer. 

What is a holiday home? Something that you live in for two weeks or two months? Who will and how will it be managed? 

What if you own two home in Wales, one in town and one for weekends in the country? 

 

The number of holiday homes will be limited and you need planning for one. If you apply early and get permission you will pay the 4x tax. If you don't apply you may be forced to sell only to the local market hitting your value. 

It sounds like a good policy but I suspect its been poorly thought through and insufficiently tested. 

[Vince Green]

Flip it and make it your principle residence, and your present residence your holiday home

[old'un]

26 minutes ago, oowee said:

I have just read the proposals and thinking what an absolute nightmare policy to administer. 

What is a holiday home? Something that you live in for two weeks or two months? Who will and how will it be managed? 

What if you own two home in Wales, one in town and one for weekends in the country? 

 

The number of holiday homes will be limited and you need planning for one. If you apply early and get permission you will pay the 4x tax. If you don't apply you may be forced to sell only to the local market hitting your value. 

It sounds like a good policy but I suspect its been poorly thought through and insufficiently tested. 

the back garden of the cottage is about 12 feet square, the cottage is on a very narrow lane with no front garden so no parking except for loading and unloading, there is a communal parking area within the village which is about a 4/5 minute walk from the cottage, not sure why there was no offers on the cottage from a young person wanting to get on the property ladder (maybe because of the above) or was it the fact that at £120k it was still out of their reach, so what price do the Welsh Government think these holiday home owners are willing to let their £250k-£350k properties go for to make them affordable to young buyers, £80k-£90k?

as you say, sounds like a good policy (vote winner) but suspect its been poorly thought through.

[yates]

Stonepark and Vince Green make some very valid points. Unfortunately I agree with all sides of the argument. If I had the money I would like a holiday home but would do as Vince says. However I holiday several times a year in cottages in rural/coastal settings where the village has lost it’s heart and soul due to second home ownership. I was chatting to a couple of locals in the villages of Norham and horncliffe in Northumberland in March and they were absolutely at breaking point with the influx of second home owners wanting to control community activities. 
I think it is the same all over the uk. 

[Vince Green]

We have the same gripe repeated over and over in Cornwall. Always blaming the holiday home owners, with some justification I agree. They are however still happy to take the tourist's money from them.

But the real problem for the youngsters is the lack of proper jobs. Seasonal minimum pay jobs wont get you a mortgage or pay the rent all year round. The fact that I am living in somewhere you couldn't afford anyway is not my fault

The problem in Cornwall is all the hundreds of  "unregistered" and unregulated AirBnB holiday lets that are charging up to £1000 a week for shoddy accomodation despite not having proper safety certificates for fire risks, Gas, electrical etc and presumably not telling the tax man either 

[oowee]

32 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

We have the same gripe repeated over and over in Cornwall. Always blaming the holiday home owners, with some justification I agree. They are however still happy to take the tourist's money from them. 

Of course they are. It's small beer and little compensation when the places die out of season. Even where there are jobs in traditional industries of fishing, boat building or even tourism the workers are pushed out. 

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/celebs-tv/second-homes-killing-cornwall-claim-3765098

Edited July 6, 2022 by oowee

[Lloyd90]

It’s all well and good but these TOURIST areas are heavily reliant on holiday makers coming down and spending their money. 
 

They will moan about there being no homes for locals but I bet that the locals who currently can’t afford to own a home because they don’t have £50,000 deposit and don’t earn £50,000+ a year, still wouldn’t be able to buy these holiday houses if they were all sold and the prices dropped, because most of them still don’t have a £25,000+ deposit and the income needed. 
 

Add to that, if they push out a big chunk of the tourists, they won’t have as many  jobs in the tourist industry. 
 

I worked in bars and other establishments in my home town in Wales when I left school, absolutely deserted during the off season, they regularly fired half the staff come the end of the summer and re-hired more people at the start of the season. 
 

My partner is from even further down West Wales, the area is shutting down all the big petro plants, the docks, once famed for being one of the best deep water docks in the U.K. is now barely used, employment opportunity in the area are poor. 
 

 

The real issue is that houses across the entire country are getting to the level that they are no longer affordable to people unless they are in skilled professions earning very decent money, and even then most of those people need a boost from family to get their deposit together. 

 

This seems to be hot on the press discussing areas like Cornwall and Wales, but this issue has been present for a long time in London and other major cities, where the house prices have exceeded the means of many local people who aren’t in high paid jobs, and they are forced to relocate to other areas where housing is a lot more affordable. 
 

 

[Vince Green]

Its complex because most of the holiday parks and hotels are owned by companies that are not based in Cornwall. In some cases not even based in the UK. Same with the BnBs and the now much discussed "dodgy" AirBnBs. All owned by what the Cornish regard as outsiders.

So very little of the wealth created by the tourists is retained.

Yes the locals can get seasonal work but until Brexit they were competing with the flood of Eastern European labour that was frankly a better prospect for the hotels and holiday parks. Willing to get up at 5am, work 7 days a week till 10pm, and then go home at the end of the season with what (to them) is an absolute fortune.

Unlike the Cornish who don't want a seasonal job because it will screw up their benefits and they will be working for no more money than they were getting anyway by doing nothing. In some cases actually less money, and I can see their point

Farming is in a bad way so few jobs there, the EU destroyed the fishing industry  

Edited July 7, 2022 by Vince Green

[steve s×s]

We have got along just fine for almost 50 years with One home JMHO 🙂

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, on a trip up to North Wales many many years ago I was staying in a small village there was a chap in the pub I was told, just got out of prison for arson of a holiday home, lots in the news then of other holiday homes burnt down

[steve s×s]

6 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, on a trip up to North Wales many many years ago I was staying in a small village there was a chap in the pub I was told, just got out of prison for arson of a holiday home, lots in the news then of other holiday homes burnt down

The old joke, come home to a real fire, buy a cottage in Wales! 

[discobob]

9 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, on a trip up to North Wales many many years ago I was staying in a small village there was a chap in the pub I was told, just got out of prison for arson of a holiday home, lots in the news then of other holiday homes burnt down

I remember seeing it on the regional news in the 70's about cottages being burnt down.

You have to ask what is being done with all this "extra" money that is being charged to the 2nd home owners - is it being invested into affordable property built and limited to locals for the area or is it being spent on new diversity managers??

[oldypigeonpopper]

4 minutes ago, steve s×s said:

The old joke, come home to a real fire, buy a cottage in Wales! 

It's only what I can remember, 

[JohnfromUK]

There are different issues here - and as is said above - really hard to define a 'holiday' home. 

There is no doubt that a part of the present housing 'crisis' is that some people have two (or occasionally more) homes - whereas some have none.  Of people I know with 'holiday' homes (in the UK), they are used in very different ways;

1. Some people use them as a weekend 'retreat' coming out from (usually London) to their country home mainly at weekends.  A good few wealthy people have done this for a great many years, but I think it is more common now.  We have a few of those in our (edge of Cotswolds area).
2. Some people use them as a holiday location for themselves, family and a perhaps select few friends, but generally not let commercially.
3. Some people use them occasionally themselves and for family, but also let them commercially (i.e. a business).

As an example, I have a relative who has for 30 years now had a London address and country address.  Over the years as my relative has largely retired, they have downsized in London and have a larger country property now and now spend probably 3/4 of the time in the country and 'country' is now the 'main home'.

If Wales wishes to discourage things, they need to think about whether they are targeting all 'second' home ownership - or non commercial holiday home ownership, or a commercial type of holiday letting (which is in effect a business).  One factor to consider is that both wealthy second home owners and tourists/tourists on leisure time are more likely to be free spending locally in hospitality and tourist trade than hard pressed locals with a big mortgage.

(I don't have a second home and have no strong views on others who do)

[Aled]

Mixed feelings here: 

1. The first home i tried to buy in rural Wales, i was gazumped and the house was sold at a higher than asked for price for use as a holiday home. 

2. When i lived in Cardiff i was told (not nastily by the way) by an indigenous Cantonian (Canton is a part of Cardiff i used to live there and i did buy my house) that he was unable to buy a house in Canton as all you Welsh speakers are moving in here, and as you tend to be better educated than us therefore you can earn more money and  buy the houses. So maybe local housing isn't only a Rural issue.

3. Local farmers have in the past been able to buy/build holiday cottages and have brought in visitors which have contributed to the local economy...tourists are money! 

Does something need to be done. Yes what exactly not sure. Perhaps holiday parks, campsites, chalets, Glamping Pods, and static caravans provided they are sustainably built can possibly offer a middle ground of bringing tourists in, offering local employment, and not affecting the local housing issue. 

Is there any room left in Rural Wales, where new houses can be built? I know in my area there are some disused brown field areas, which could be used for new homes. 

Cheers

Aled

 

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Aled

[Vince Green]

2 hours ago, steve s×s said:

We have got along just fine for almost 50 years with One home JMHO 🙂

People have second homes for more than one reason. Its not all about a weekend retreat for the wealthy.

Because of the collapse in many sectors of the job market many people are investing their redundancy money or their nest eggs in holiday lets to provide themselves with an income. A lot of that going on in Cornwall because you cant earn any money by potting in in the bank.

[Vince Green]

46 minutes ago, Aled said:

 all you Welsh speakers are moving in here, and as you tend to be better educated than us therefore you can earn more money and  buy the houses. 

This is a recurring theme in Cornwall too, if you leave school at 16 with few or no qualifications you are absolutely doomed. There are no job prospects of any value for you anymore.

Education and proper qualifications are now the only route out of rural poverty for most people. Unless you can kick a ball extremely well or sing your way onto X Factor.

But with rural poverty (or perhaps because of it) there seems to be total apathy. The parents don't encourage the kids to make the effort.

[amateur]

2 hours ago, Vince Green said:

......Education and proper qualifications are now the only route out of rural poverty for most people. ......

That has always been the case, thwarted over the past 50 years by the removal of grammar schools, the bright child's way out.

[oldypigeonpopper]

19 hours ago, Vince Green said:

We have the same gripe repeated over and over in Cornwall. Always blaming the holiday home owners, with some justification I agree. They are however still happy to take the tourist's money from them.

But the real problem for the youngsters is the lack of proper jobs. Seasonal minimum pay jobs wont get you a mortgage or pay the rent all year round. The fact that I am living in somewhere you couldn't afford anyway is not my fault

The problem in Cornwall is all the hundreds of  "unregistered" and unregulated AirBnB holiday lets that are charging up to £1000 a week for shoddy accomodation despite not having proper safety certificates for fire risks, Gas, electrical etc and presumably not telling the tax man either 

Good post Vince, 

[Vince Green]

Let me give you an example of what I know is going on down here. The house next door to my mate Pete is a six bedroom house on the edge of St Austell. It was bought by a couple from the London area (by their accent) we don't know much about them.

They set to immediately converting it into four self contained holiday flatlets and an owners flat. Pete says they did it without planning permission. Now Pete is a retired chartered surveyor so he does know a fair bit about planning permission. And Fire regulations

He says they would have had to have fireproofed the floor space and installed fire doors and escapes and alarms  if they had done it properly,  but he doesn't think any of this has happened

Now from Easter to October they appear to be fully booked via AirBnB and it must be bringing in well over £100 grand a year. maybe a lot more than that because they do long term winter lets as well.

During the height of the covid epidemic when Cornwall was effectively closed to visitors they had all thier flats full with people trying to escape the pandemic. totally illegal

Nice work if you can get it. Does the taxman know? I have no idea

Its a common story down here. Too common the and it infuriates the locals

Edited July 7, 2022 by Vince Green