Bolton area

[blankfirer]

Saw 2lads in the Bolton area near a motorway shooting stubbles correct me if I am wrong but is that not illegal cannot see any crops in same area 

[sam triple]

Shooting stubbles bit of a pointless exercise 🤔

[mgsontour]

43 minutes ago, sam triple said:

Shooting stubbles bit of a pointless exercise 🤔

Think it's a typo and the lads were shooting stubbies ( I believe it refers to drinking small cans of beer really quickly ) but then again I could be wrong

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 hour ago, blankfirer said:

Saw 2lads in the Bolton area near a motorway shooting stubbles correct me if I am wrong but is that not illegal cannot see any crops in same area 

Why would shooting over stubble be illegal?

[blankfirer]

Because if I understand you are not protecting any crop as the general licence stipulates

[TIGHTCHOKE]

11 minutes ago, blankfirer said:

Because if I understand you are not protecting any crop as the general licence stipulates

Then you understand wrongly.

[mossy835]

BASC say you can shoot over stubble with decoys.

[Fellside]

This nonsense comes up every year at harvest - by people who don’t understand the GLs and more importantly their  legal context. 

[blankfirer]

I was under the assumption you cannot shoot the birds if there is no crop to protect you can shoot stubbles if your protecting crops near by but not shooting stubble for the sake for it 

[Stonepark]

25 minutes ago, blankfirer said:

I was under the assumption you cannot shoot the birds if there is no crop to protect you can shoot stubbles if your protecting crops near by but not shooting stubble for the sake for it 

The idea is to reduce the numbers to protect agricultural crops. Shooting stubbles is permitted to reduce numbers, which protects other crops, even though the crop you are shooting over has been harvested and the GL's support this, albeit in a roundabout manner.

Likewise, you could not control crows if they were not actively pecking the eyes out of a lamb by your assumption.

In the past, the biggest killer of pigeons was starvation\cold in winter, not shooting. With milder winters and winter crops (mainly OSR), this keeps many more birds alive in a period when many would previously perish and numbers artificially elevated, meaning control can be justified continuously as there is in arable areas nearly always a crop in the ground which requires protection.

 

Saying that, in non-arable areas (lots of Scotland for example) pigeon numbers have never increased significantly as they are still controlled by the limited food supply over winter and hardly ever cause significant damage in grassland and upland areas as they do in coastal arable lowland areas such as Fife.

[Fellside]

8 hours ago, Stonepark said:

The idea is to reduce the numbers to protect agricultural crops. Shooting stubbles is permitted to reduce numbers, which protects other crops, even though the crop you are shooting over has been harvested and the GL's support this, albeit in a roundabout manner.

Likewise, you could not control crows if they were not actively pecking the eyes out of a lamb by your assumption.

In the past, the biggest killer of pigeons was starvation\cold in winter, not shooting. With milder winters and winter crops (mainly OSR), this keeps many more birds alive in a period when many would previously perish and numbers artificially elevated, meaning control can be justified continuously as there is in arable areas nearly always a crop in the ground which requires protection.

 

Saying that, in non-arable areas (lots of Scotland for example) pigeon numbers have never increased significantly as they are still controlled by the limited food supply over winter and hardly ever cause significant damage in grassland and upland areas as they do in coastal arable lowland areas such as Fife.

Well explained Stonepark. 
It’s also worth remembering (so many people overlook this one) that control is not just for a single farm holding, but also area wide. 

[blankfirer]

Well that's good to know I presumed there had to be crops say 3 to 4 fields away but it seems that's not the case

[30-6]

Lucky you don't live in Wales. Much stricter stubble shooting here.

The NRW has stopped stubble shooting unless very strict guidelines are followed.

If anybody wants to tell me I'm wrong read the Welsh GL1 first.

[Bigbob]

Maybe decoying over stubbles to stop the birds reaching the crop fields next door where you cant shoot 

[marsh man]

Like one member said , this subject crop up each year and a lot of us still don't understand every rule and regulation laid down in the G L .

Firstly , we know we have to try and use non lethal methods over a crop first before we start to kill pigeons , for those who do know tell me , how long should this be carried out on the same field , daily , each time we go , or is the first time it is carried out enough for the duration of the crop ?

Now with stubble shooting shooting , we know the shooting is classed as prevention , so I take it we don't have to resort to keeping them off a non crop , or do we ?

If we didn't then anyone who have got the land owners permission and wants to shoot pigeons on the stubble's can carry on as if the G L don't exist ( in England as I know very little about the Welsh ruling ) as what have they got to comply with ?

If they have got to use that silly non lethal method first then I have never seen a bird scare 'r on stubble and never had a land owner ask me to keep them off of a stubble field .

As for flight line shooting and roost shooting , well we could be here the rest of the afternoon and I have got to go and walk a few off a fresh drilled rape field before I resort to killing , come to think of it , have I got to walk them off as it was direct drilled on a wheat stubble and the pigeons are eating the loose corn rather than the deeply drilled rape seed 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Walk in to the field, shout "GO AWAY" very loudly.

Build hide, put out pattern and shoot the wood pigeons!

[Old Boggy]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Walk in to the field, shout "GO AWAY" very loudly.

Build hide, put out pattern and shoot the wood pigeons!

I do that all the time 

[oowee]

1 hour ago, marsh man said:

Like one member said , this subject crop up each year and a lot of us still don't understand every rule and regulation laid down in the G L .

Firstly , we know we have to try and use non lethal methods over a crop first before we start to kill pigeons , for those who do know tell me , how long should this be carried out on the same field , daily , each time we go , or is the first time it is carried out enough for the duration of the crop ?

Now with stubble shooting shooting , we know the shooting is classed as prevention , so I take it we don't have to resort to keeping them off a non crop , or do we ?

 

You’re not required to use alternative, lawful methods under condition 1(a) and 1(b) where the use of such methods would be impractical, without effect or disproportionate in the circumstances.

[marsh man]

38 minutes ago, oowee said:

You’re not required to use alternative, lawful methods under condition 1(a) and 1(b) where the use of such methods would be impractical, without effect or disproportionate in the circumstances.

THANKS oowee for the update , so was I right in thinking that anyone with the right legal permission can shoot pigeons and Corvids on stubble's to there's hearts content without even knowing about a GL ever existed as they haven't got anything to comply to ?

And with the first question , if I carried out the requirements laid out in the G L by using non lethal methods at the start of the growing crop,  they then paid no notice so I had to revert to the last resort by shooting them to protect the crop , then it don't seem any point in going back to non lethal methods when they have already been tried and don't work , so I would take it that the first time was enough and pointless trying it again when the Pigeons come back a few days , or weeks later   

[Fellside]

2 hours ago, marsh man said:

THANKS oowee for the update , so was I right in thinking that anyone with the right legal permission can shoot pigeons and Corvids on stubble's to there's hearts content without even knowing about a GL ever existed as they haven't got anything to comply to ?

And with the first question , if I carried out the requirements laid out in the G L by using non lethal methods at the start of the growing crop,  they then paid no notice so I had to revert to the last resort by shooting them to protect the crop , then it don't seem any point in going back to non lethal methods when they have already been tried and don't work , so I would take it that the first time was enough and pointless trying it again when the Pigeons come back a few days , or weeks later   

Hi Marshman,

The ‘common consensus’ is that we don’t need to use non lethals at all:

“where the use of such methods would be impractical, without effect or disproportionate in the circumstances.” 
 

as kindly pointed out by oowee. In other words you don’t have to. This is a common theme across the GLs for most species. HOWEVER….. if you are controlling a certain species with an INDIVIDUAL LICENCE from Natural England (i.e. not the GLs) this get out clause is not available and non-lethals must be used. 

Hope that helps. 

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

Hi Marshman,

The ‘common consensus’ is that we don’t need to use non lethals at all:

“where the use of such methods would be impractical, without effect or disproportionate in the circumstances.” 
 

as kindly pointed out by oowee. In other words you don’t have to. This is a common theme across the GLs for most species. HOWEVER….. if you are controlling a certain species with an INDIVIDUAL LICENCE from Natural England (i.e. not the GLs) this get out clause is not available and non-lethals must be used. 

Hope that helps. 

 

So the fact that this misplaced enquiry was originally about a mis understanding of the GENERAL licence for shooting Wood Pigeons now moves on to INDIVIDUAL licences!  

[Fellside]

2 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

So the fact that this misplaced enquiry was originally about a mis understanding of the GENERAL licence for shooting Wood Pigeons now moves on to INDIVIDUAL licences!  

The other day while out using GL42, I opted to take with me a chicken pie - not the usual steak and gravy! Can someone please advise if this is within the reg’s……?!

[marsh man]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

The other day while out using GL42, I opted to take with me a chicken pie - not the usual steak and gravy! Can someone please advise if this is within the reg’s……?!

I have just been in touch with Mr Packham and he said yes , only if you were by your self , if I was lucky enough to come with you , the only alteration would be , you would have to put pies instead of pie , hope this help 

THANKS for the update and the G L is slowly becoming a bit clearer , only a bit mind you as to be honest it look virtually impossible to ever police in the present form , how on earth would anyone know how many times you have walked them off , or the bags you have put out to divert the pigeons to where you are decoying are either a help to you , or you are trying to keep them off , in my time I have seen just about every thing ever invented to keep vermin of the crops , these include , a pop up guy waving his arms about and then it fall back to the ground when it is deflated , a pyramid that had mirrors on , this revolved round and when the sun caught it on the side , it shined and was supposed to scare the birds , total rubbish as it only worked when the sun came out , another waste of time was plastic stripes that went across the field , these were supposed to vibrate and make a whirling noise , again rubbish on a still day , Hawks kites on carbon poles , gas guns put in 45 gallon oil drums , bags on sticks , rope banger's and even rockets fired over the field .

I don't think I would be the only one to fail to know there was a G L before all this kicked off and Mr Packham and his wise men brought Pigeon shooting to a standstill after we had been doing it for as long as we were able to hold a gun , now we know we have got one I honestly cannot see anyone ever facing a judge after being charged with failing to comply with the ruling , this could easily change if they ever tried to abolish stubble shooting , this would then stop around 90% of decoyer's carrying out there yearly spell at pigeon shooting .

[TIGHTCHOKE]

14 minutes ago, marsh man said:

I have just been in touch with Mr Packham and he said yes , only if you were by your self , if I was lucky enough to come with you , the only alteration would be , you would have to put pies instead of pie , hope this help 

THANKS for the update and the G L is slowly becoming a bit clearer , only a bit mind you as to be honest it look virtually impossible to ever police in the present form , how on earth would anyone know how many times you have walked them off , or the bags you have put out to divert the pigeons to where you are decoying are either a help to you , or you are trying to keep them off , in my time I have seen just about every thing ever invented to keep vermin of the crops , these include , a pop up guy waving his arms about and then it fall back to the ground when it is deflated , a pyramid that had mirrors on , this revolved round and when the sun caught it on the side , it shined and was supposed to scare the birds , total rubbish as it only worked when the sun came out , another waste of time was plastic stripes that went across the field , these were supposed to vibrate and make a whirling noise , again rubbish on a still day , Hawks kites on carbon poles , gas guns put in 45 gallon oil drums , bags on sticks , rope banger's and even rockets fired over the field .

I don't think I would be the only one to fail to know there was a G L before all this kicked off and Mr Packham and his wise men brought Pigeon shooting to a standstill after we had been doing it for as long as we were able to hold a gun , now we know we have got one I honestly cannot see anyone ever facing a judge after being charged with failing to comply with the ruling , this could easily change if they ever tried to abolish stubble shooting , this would then stop around 90% of decoyer's carrying out there yearly spell at pigeon shooting .

Which is exactly the way they have been written!  

[Fellside]

13 minutes ago, marsh man said:

I have just been in touch with Mr Packham and he said yes , only if you were by your self , if I was lucky enough to come with you , the only alteration would be , you would have to put pies instead of pie , hope this help 

THANKS for the update and the G L is slowly becoming a bit clearer , only a bit mind you as to be honest it look virtually impossible to ever police in the present form , how on earth would anyone know how many times you have walked them off , or the bags you have put out to divert the pigeons to where you are decoying are either a help to you , or you are trying to keep them off , in my time I have seen just about every thing ever invented to keep vermin of the crops , these include , a pop up guy waving his arms about and then it fall back to the ground when it is deflated , a pyramid that had mirrors on , this revolved round and when the sun caught it on the side , it shined and was supposed to scare the birds , total rubbish as it only worked when the sun came out , another waste of time was plastic stripes that went across the field , these were supposed to vibrate and make a whirling noise , again rubbish on a still day , Hawks kites on carbon poles , gas guns put in 45 gallon oil drums , bags on sticks , rope banger's and even rockets fired over the field .

I don't think I would be the only one to fail to know there was a G L before all this kicked off and Mr Packham and his wise men brought Pigeon shooting to a standstill after we had been doing it for as long as we were able to hold a gun , now we know we have got one I honestly cannot see anyone ever facing a judge after being charged with failing to comply with the ruling , this could easily change if they ever tried to abolish stubble shooting , this would then stop around 90% of decoyer's carrying out there yearly spell at pigeon shooting .

Someone told me that approx’ 20% of the total UK pigeon population is shot each year. I don’t know whether this is an accurate estimate…..? However, there would certainly be a significant population boom of woodies if stubble shooting ceased. I imagine DEFRA are all to aware of this. 

P.S Thank you MM for clarifying the pie situation…..😁