The absurd and the ridiculous

[Scully]

13 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

Chatting to a guy on saturday who'd been shooting on two estates that had gone all steel this year. He reckoned one still had nearly 800 birds in the chiller uncollected, they're still shooting twice a week wondering what to do with them. The other basicly giving them away.

I guess i started on a commercial shoot then, it is a family shoot, that sell a day or peg or two to ease the pain.

As to killing BOP i think more are killed on roads, certainly one spot near me, a (Dual Carriageway with a good rabbit population), you can find plenty of BOP carcasses .

So that’s two then. 

[8 shot]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

So that’s two then. 

But it's supposed to be flying of the selves and boat loads going to Europe.....was that not what the Game Dealers thing ma jig's point of the Shoot Assurance Gold Standard..... MORE SALES ! Same as Agricultures Red Tractor Scheme crock of Sh!t

[Newbie to this]

9 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

Which was ? Just looked on Waitrose Webpage no game, lots of venison

https://inews.co.uk/news/ian-botham-offer-game-birds-shot-grounds-poor-81602

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Weihrauch17 said:

Total and utter rubbish every branch of shooting sports I quoted would exist just fine if there wasn't a single commercial shoot in the country, they have no reliance on commercial shooting what so ever so in no way 'do they exist off the bedrock of Commercial shoots' as quoted by Penelope.  I started at 7 with an airgun and was oblivious to the fact that without commercial shoots I would never had got one.  I would go the other way and the say the main thing that threatens shooting as a whole are commercial shoots, they will do for all of us.

You claimed there was no ‘relationship’ between the shooting disciplines you mentioned, and now I’ve pointed out the relationship, you’ve changed it to ‘reliance’. 
Right, let’s have a look at this. 
You’re obviously blaming driven game shooting- specifically commercial driven shoots- for the lead ban. Do you know why you’re blaming commercial shoots, or is it just a chip on the shoulder for what you perceive to be wealthy toffs with Range Rovers? 
What about non-commercial driven game shoots? Do you deem them to be ok? Aren’t they equally responsible for the lead ban, and if not why not? They’re doing exactly what the commercial shoots are doing in that they buy birds to raise and shoot for sport, with one exception, and that is they aren’t selling days. 
You reckon the biggest threat to shooting is commercial shoots; do you not reckon it might be the fact we all shoot live quarry for no other reason than sport? Why do you shoot? You don’t need to do it to survive, and unless you own land on which your livestock or crops are predated by vermin, you don’t even need to do it for those reasons, so tell me, what do you shoot and why? 
Who would represent your interests if driven shooting ( whether commercial or otherwise ) ceased to exist? 

 

[Scully]

26 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

But it's supposed to be flying of the selves and boat loads going to Europe.....was that not what the Game Dealers thing ma jig's point of the Shoot Assurance Gold Standard..... MORE SALES ! Same as Agricultures Red Tractor Scheme crock of Sh!t

Is it? How do you know it isn’t flying off the shelves whether it’s shot with lead or not? 
Warter Priory commercial shoot are specifying non-toxic now because apparently their game dealers have specified it needs to be, yet the game dealer arrived at local BIG shoot last week before we’d even got the days bag in the chiller and counted, and they were shot with lead! So who knows? What does any of that prove? 🤷‍♂️

[Weihrauch17]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

You claimed there was no ‘relationship’ between the shooting disciplines you mentioned, and now I’ve pointed out the relationship, you’ve changed it to ‘reliance’. 
Right, let’s have a look at this. 
You’re obviously blaming driven game shooting- specifically commercial driven shoots- for the lead ban. Do you know why you’re blaming commercial shoots, or is it just a chip on the shoulder for what you perceive to be wealthy toffs with Range Rovers? 
What about non-commercial driven game shoots? Do you deem them to be ok? Aren’t they equally responsible for the lead ban, and if not why not? They’re doing exactly what the commercial shoots are doing in that they buy birds to raise and shoot for sport, with one exception, and that is they aren’t selling days. 
You reckon the biggest threat to shooting is commercial shoots; do you not reckon it might be the fact we all shoot live quarry for no other reason than sport? Why do you shoot? You don’t need to do it to survive, and unless you own land on which your livestock or crops are predated by vermin, you don’t even need to do it for those reasons, so tell me, what do you shoot and why? 
Who would represent your interests if driven shooting ( whether commercial or otherwise ) ceased to exist? 

 

I responded to Penolope not you.  Maybe you should read the whole thread before you jump in with both feet as per usual in your pathetic constant quest to wind people up.  I haven't changed anything, I was making the point that all the shooting sports I mentioned are not 'built on the bedrock of commercial shoots' as stated.  My interests aren't represented by Commercial shoots or BASC.

[Scully]

1 minute ago, Weihrauch17 said:

I responded to Penolope not you.  Maybe you should read the whole thread before you jump in with both feet as per usual in your pathetic constant quest to wind people up.  I haven't changed anything, I was making the point that all the shooting sports I mentioned are not 'built on the bedrock of commercial shoots' as stated.  My interests aren't represented by Commercial shoots or BASC.

Eh? Can I ask how old you are out of interest, because you repeatedly  come across as a petulant teenager. Am I only allowed to respond to posts in which I’m quoted? 
You stated a post of mine was utter rubbish, and now I’ve pointed out that it isn’t, you’ve evaded any questions I’ve asked by taking another hissy fit. 

If you can’t handle a few simple questions on an adult forum perhaps you shouldn’t take part, especially when you can’t back up the claims you make. 
Do your shoot live quarry? If so why? 

[Weihrauch17]

Ask all you want Scully I really can't be bothered with your constant wind ups. Your post was utter rubbish and your questions totally irrelevant to the point I was making.  Go and find someone else to try and wind up, I am not biting.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Weihrauch17

[Scully]

26 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

Ask all you want Scully I really can't be bothered with your constant wind ups. Your post was utter rubbish and your questions totally irrelevant to the point I was making.  Go and find someone else to try and wind up, I am not biting.

And there you go again! It’s all got a bit too awkward for you so now you claim you can’t be bothered because it’s just a wind up! I can assure you it isn’t. 
Reminds me of someone else who just posts rubbish then disappears when the questions get too awkward for them. How convenient . 
It says much more about you than me, and tells me everything I need to know. 

[Weihrauch17]

16 minutes ago, Scully said:

And there you go again! It’s all got a bit too awkward for you so now you claim you can’t be bothered because it’s just a wind up! I can assure you it isn’t. 
Reminds me of someone else who just posts rubbish then disappears when the questions get too awkward for them. How convenient . 
It says much more about you than me, and tells me everything I need to know. 

Not awkward at all none of the Shooting Sports I mentioned are 'built on the bedrock of Commercial shoots' and neither was your journey into shooting.  You are wrong period, bye bye.

[Scully]

1 minute ago, Weihrauch17 said:

Not awkward at all none of the Shooting Sports I mentioned are 'built on the bedrock of Commercial shoots' and neither was your journey into shooting.  You are wrong period, bye bye.

I never claimed they were, that was Penelope, as you were keen to point out earlier. Have you forgotten or is it just another attempt at avoiding awkward questions? 
I never claimed my journey into shooting was built on the bedrock of commercial shoots. All I did was point out the relationship between driven game shooting and other shooting disciplines, which you then changed to reliance. Remember now? 
You claim I’m wrong but can’t tell me why. Like I said, tells me all I need to know. 

[Gas seal]

Hi 8shot . There could be more birds of prey killed on roads . If the people mentioned that to the court they may have got away with killing birds of prey. It’s pheasants that die on roads in large numbers.. Maybe the game shoots could take motorists to court for killing pheasants or killing them out of season. 

[bruno22rf]

13 hours ago, Weihrauch17 said:

Total and utter rubbish every branch of shooting sports I quoted would exist just fine if there wasn't a single commercial shoot in the country, they have no reliance on commercial shooting what so ever so in no way 'do they exist off the bedrock of Commercial shoots' as quoted by Penelope.  I started at 7 with an airgun and was oblivious to the fact that without commercial shoots I would never had got one.  I would go the other way and the say the main thing that threatens shooting as a whole are commercial shoots, they will do for all of us.

My feelings are very much along the same lines.

8 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Hi 8shot . There could be more birds of prey killed on roads . If the people mentioned that to the court they may have got away with killing birds of prey. It’s pheasants that die on roads in large numbers.. Maybe the game shoots could take motorists to court for killing pheasants or killing them out of season. 

You are Joking I hope.

[Gordon R]

Scully - just to say I agree with your posts.

[HantsRob]

I think it's fair to say clay shooters will see this situation completely different to game shooters. Both sides will defend their point.

I think if game shooting was banned, that clay shooting would happily survive. But then I am ignorant to what game shooting (procurement of guns, ammo etc) contributes to the success of shooting in the UK. Likewise, I doubt any commercial game shoot keeps any clay ground alive, except for that rush in September for people to practice before their game days.

They are intrinsically linked in that respect, but I would disagree with game shooting being a backbone or keystone or anything else for clay shooting. Nothing in this thread has changed my mind on that so far, but I am open to being shown. That's not a slur on any comments made, just I don't see any direct correlation, but do agree there are crossovers such as game shooters using clay for practice, and the game market providing sales that helps keep businesses running.

Edited November 16, 2022 by HantsRob

[Dangerous Brian]

Just a thought- If Game shooting were to be banned, would all other disciplines get on just fine with the very probable price hikes for cartridges?

From a quick glance at the shelves there seems to be a premium attached to anything with a pheasant or partridge on the box. If no-one was buying those products who would cover the shortfall in profits? I know all the advertising is around the best of the best components etc but does that really cover the difference to the average Pigeon cartridge or a half decent clay load? From my limited view there would be a loss of margin and also a loss of volume that would be shouldered by the other product lines. Even from just a commercial angle we are all linked.

[clangerman]

9 minutes ago, Dangerous Brian said:

Just a thought- If Game shooting were to be banned, would all other disciplines get on just fine with the very probable price hikes for cartridges?

From a quick glance at the shelves there seems to be a premium attached to anything with a pheasant or partridge on the box. If no-one was buying those products who would cover the shortfall in profits? I know all the advertising is around the best of the best components etc but does that really cover the difference to the average Pigeon cartridge or a half decent clay load? From my limited view there would be a loss of margin and also a loss of volume that would be shouldered by the other product lines. Even from just a commercial angle we are all linked.

we are all going to be fine fox hunting pulled the same one go all go rubbish so we already know how it ends you get banned everyone else carries on your deceit is rewarded 

[bottletopbill]

We have all moaned at some time ABOUT BASC  but i have just completed my DSC1 with BASC at Wadhurst a few weeks ago.

That must have been at a loss I paid £295.00 for four days training and all the books and targets and ammo.

Plus the cost of the trainer and hire of the venue do not think they made any profit so a thumbs up.

 

[HantsRob]

16 minutes ago, bottletopbill said:

We have all moaned at some time ABOUT BASC  but i have just completed my DSC1 with BASC at Wadhurst a few weeks ago.

That must have been at a loss I paid £295.00 for four days training and all the books and targets and ammo.

Plus the cost of the trainer and hire of the venue do not think they made any profit so a thumbs up.

 

No such thing as a loss. I believe subsidised is a better word, funded by other BASC members. Seems a fair use of money, for safe and competent shooters using the BASC ethos.

40 minutes ago, Dangerous Brian said:

Just a thought- If Game shooting were to be banned, would all other disciplines get on just fine with the very probable price hikes for cartridges?

From a quick glance at the shelves there seems to be a premium attached to anything with a pheasant or partridge on the box. If no-one was buying those products who would cover the shortfall in profits? I know all the advertising is around the best of the best components etc but does that really cover the difference to the average Pigeon cartridge or a half decent clay load? From my limited view there would be a loss of margin and also a loss of volume that would be shouldered by the other product lines. Even from just a commercial angle we are all linked.

A shop will still only make 10-15% on carts. 

I get that you're saying a thou clay loads may be £250 and a thou game loads may be £600. But, a game shooter shoots a lot less. I am sure I shoot 1000 carts before a game shooter shoots 417 game loads for the same money. So if anything, you could say the cheaper clay loads who are shot a lot more actually subsidise the game loads.

We can argue finances all day long, and I am not saying you're wrong, I am saying I suspect I am right. That said game carts will contribute to the profit line.

 

 

Looking at a 2014 doc:

http://www.shootingfacts.co.uk/pdf/The-Value-of-Shooting-2014.pdf

You can't just value either way on raw sales. There's persons it employs as a sport in all disciplines, around 74k people. Also I wonder how much conservation would continue without game shooting, and again you could possibly argue that both ways.

Either way I do believe the clay sports could live without game, albeit possibly at a cost increase maybe.

[Scully]

I’m a bit busy at the moment to address every post, but just ponder this for a while til I’m back home and I can address each post in turn. 
Let’s just say driven bird shooting has been banned and lead is no more ( because some seem to have got it into their heads that driven game shooting is also driving the lead ban, which isn’t the case at all, anymore than wildfowlers were responsible for their disciplines lead shot ban ) for live quarry shooting. 
Where does that leave BASC the NGO etc etc and all those who are left? 
You can forget about clays; I’ve never once suggested clay pigeon shooting would be under threat if driven game shooting went. 
Or ponder this, because despite me asking more than once, no one has yet answered this question!
What do you think the response would be if our shooting orgs turned round to the relevant bodies and said ‘we aren’t complying with a lead shot ban’ ? 

[HantsRob]

37 minutes ago, Scully said:

Where does that leave BASC the NGO etc etc and all those who are left? 

What do you think the response would be if our shooting orgs turned round to the relevant bodies and said ‘we aren’t complying with a lead shot ban’ ? 

I appreciate your questions are general, however I suspect people aren't answering as they don't know maybe. My stab would be that maybe BASC would adjust and adapt to clay sports, or simply it would have to fold. I would guess they would adapt to the new world. I know nothing of the NGO so wouldn't pass comment.

As for that response, I think it's not really a question as I can't imagine any organisation stating they will go against the law. So, probably not worth guessing something that has a very high probability of never happening.

 

Both points are moot as neither are on the cards at this time, just a ban on lead which frankly is an inconvenience and cost at best and not a show stopper. 

[Konor]

18 hours ago, Scully said:

I’m a bit busy at the moment to address every post, but just ponder this for a while til I’m back home and I can address each post in turn. 
Let’s just say driven bird shooting has been banned and lead is no more ( because some seem to have got it into their heads that driven game shooting is also driving the lead ban, which isn’t the case at all, anymore than wildfowlers were responsible for their disciplines lead shot ban ) for live quarry shooting. 
Where does that leave BASC the NGO etc etc and all those who are left? 
You can forget about clays; I’ve never once suggested clay pigeon shooting would be under threat if driven game shooting went. 
Or ponder this, because despite me asking more than once, no one has yet answered this question!
What do you think the response would be if our shooting orgs turned round to the relevant bodies and said ‘we aren’t complying with a lead shot ban’ ? 

Perhaps BASC could change tack and concentrate on wildfowling maybe change its name to something  like Wildfowlers Assosciation for Shooting and Conservation or something similar 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Konor

[Konor]

I think the main driver of the lead shot ban is the concern that lead shot game is considered a health hazard and the source of that concern is the birds supplied from commercial shoots to game dealers. The concern here is public health and I think it is fair to say that commercial shoots and their need to sell their game has been the cause of the push to ban lead shot cartridges both from BASC and those organisations which are considered anti shooting.The lead shot ban for wildfowling in contrast was based on concern for the population of the quarry species. In both cases rightly or wrongly.

If it is being suggested that commercial game shooting is invaluable to shooting sports I’d say that’s debatable. The abundance of wildfowling opportunities and the availability of stalking and rough shooting I don’t think are dependent on the presence of put and take commercial shoots.

As an aside I am a member of a small walk and stand syndicate and although I have some good memories of the odd high bird or jinking woodcock the majority of my treasured memories have been acquired on the foreshore or rough shooting or flighting wild ducks and so in the main are not dependent on standing on a peg where the focus is on acquiring a target.

Commercial shooting buys accessibility to plenty of shooting just as fisheries provide large trout and plenty of them but the latter can’t compare to a wild 2lb plus brownie caught on a loch.People yearn for quantity and in some cases excess hence we are where we are.

[morgan]

It was a shame the BASC removed the legal protection for certificates from their insurance policy. I think that was an important part of the support they gave the shooting community for many years.

All the good work they do regarding conservation doesn't seem to filter into environmental social media - which is where unfortunately the wider public get their misinformation from the Packhams of this world. Unless you were a hunter already, its unlikely that you would be aware of BASC. They could perhaps be a bit more proactive in clarifying the ecological benefits of shooting and game habitat to the wider public and how hunting and shooting preserved the fabric of the countryside for many years, before the enviromental movement and anti's came along. Once its explained to people a lot of them get it and change their views on shooting in a positive way.

Edited November 26, 2022 by morgan

[rbrowning2]

On 16/11/2022 at 14:36, Scully said:

What do you think the response would be if our shooting orgs turned round to the relevant bodies and said ‘we aren’t complying with a lead shot ban’ ? 

ain’t going to happen, if lead is banned in law then as probably the most law abiding group of people in society we would stop using lead just as the manufactures and importers of ammunition and cartridges would also stop offering lead.

plus the shooting orgs have not got the bottle to do such a thing.