BASC - unshakeable determination

[Conor O'Gorman]

Shooting faces a choice: be held back by passengers and self-interest or be propelled forward by a unified, engaged and courageous community committed to high standards and sustainability. BASC chairman Eoghan Cameron highlights the issues facing shooting in 2023 in his New Year address.

https://basc.org.uk/unshakeable-determination/

[tonyshooter]

Totally agree with the content of this New Year address.

[Old farrier]

13 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Shooting faces a choice: be held back by passengers and self-interest or be propelled forward by a unified, engaged and courageous community committed to high standards and sustainability. BASC chairman Eoghan Cameron highlights the issues facing shooting in 2023 in his New Year address.

https://basc.org.uk/unshakeable-determination/

And does the president address the members first ? 

[tonyshooter]

It went on the BASC website, before it appeared on here.

[8 shot]

Something similar from the NFU former President/Chairman etc. over Christmas,about those who don't become members of Organisations are free loaders and are the ones doing all complaining but make on contributions to tough decisions ahead. BOTH as i see it suffering from dwindling membership.

[Old farrier]

12 minutes ago, tonyshooter said:

It went on the BASC website, before it appeared on here.

Did it ? well that’s refreshing to know I shall have to always check out the website before I go on any social media 

[scarecrow243]

well BASC  if you believe  what you have wrote  why did basc agree to change to non toxic shot  in five years time  when there is no proof what so ever about lead poisoning  in birds etc   fight for shooter rights don't make me laugh  you sold us down the river that's why you are losing members                  BASC is battle-hardened by 114 years at the front line of defending and promoting shooting on behalf of our whole community. You don’t get to be 114 years old through failure, despondency or arrogance, but through unshakeable belief and determination to succeed. Opponents of all shapes and sizes come and go, but the truth is that we’ve been at home on this battlefield far longer than most. The legacy of Stanley Duncan and others like him shows that it is courage and foresight rather than nostalgia and hope that will define the future of field sports.                                                                          

[Scully]

59 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

Something similar from the NFU former President/Chairman etc. over Christmas,about those who don't become members of Organisations are free loaders and are the ones doing all complaining but make on contributions to tough decisions ahead. BOTH as i see it suffering from dwindling membership.

My farming friends tell me NFU stands for ‘No Flippin’ Use’, or words very similar. 🙂

[enfieldspares]

Shooting faces a choice: be held back by ....self-interest

That'd be a different self interest would it to throwing everybody else under the bus regarding lead shot to protect 1) the "big bag boys" attempting to justify four or five hundred bird days on the grounds that "what we shoot enters the commercial food chain" and 2) BASC's massive investment to the British Game Alliance?

And the now frantic back pedalling regarding lead ammunition for use on live quarry in shotguns and lead ammunition for live quarry in air rifles which...in case BASC didn't know...people also use to shoot woodpigeon with as well as shotguns?

Lead ammunition in shotguns for woodpigeon = BAD. Lead ammunition in air rifle for woodpigeon = GOOD.

Lead ammunition in shotguns for rabbits = STOP IT. Lead ammunition in air rifles for rabbits = CARRY ON.

Quote

Lead shot for live quarry shooting

BASC’s position: We remain committed to the shooting organisations’ five-year transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting with shotguns.

Quote

Lead airgun ammunition for live quarry and target shooting

BASC’s position: We are opposed to the restriction proposals. It is our view that lead airgun ammunition can continue to be used for live quarry and target shooting where risks are appropriately and proportionately controlled.

Please do tell what's the bloomin' difference then? 

Because if you hold a press conference on this that's about the first question a journalist will ask!

And, pray, please also, how much was, and is, that investment in the BGA compared to what would have been a mere modest sum to have challenged from the outset by Judicial Review the initiating by Lincolnshire Police of requiring additional GP input beyond that in the then existing Home Office Guidance booklet?

Edited January 1, 2023 by enfieldspares

[Poor Shot]

Opponents of all shapes and sizes come and go, but the truth is that we’ve been at home on this battlefield far longer than most.

Have we ever faced an opponent like wild justice? LACS, peta, RSPB are all good but WJ are on another level.

In the age of crowd funding and social media I don't think WJ are going to disappear if we just keep our fingers crossed and hope they get bored of attacking fieldsports and move onto wind surfers or metal detecting enthusiasts.

I'm not sure I've seen anything from basc to date which even outlines a plan to deal with WJ.

For whatever reason I pay two basc memberships so I'm not one of those sideline observers mentioned in the address.

I went to a talk/ Q&A by my regional BASC representative before Christmas and the bottom line of nearly every answer given was 'it is what it is and we'll just have to deal with it'. Questions ranged from the lead ban to firearms licensing and most other current issues. I left feeling very dissatisfied and quite disheartened to see that the number one shooting organisation was quite happy to maintain a status of just burying their head in the sand and placing their fingers in their ears while shouting la la la la.

 

[8 shot]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

My farming friends tell me NFU stands for ‘No Flippin’ Use’, or words very similar. 🙂

🤣 Yes exactly...

[Gordon R]

There were some decent points in his address, but it got off to a poor start. 

On the one hand - courageous embers of BASC, fighting for the future of shooting - albeit with amazingly different views on lead.

 

Quote

 

  Quote

Lead shot for live quarry shooting

BASC’s position: We remain committed to the shooting organisations’ five-year transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting with shotguns.

  Quote

Lead airgun ammunition for live quarry and target shooting

BASC’s position: We are opposed to the restriction proposals. It is our view that lead airgun ammunition can continue to be used for live quarry and target shooting where risks are appropriately and proportionately controlled.

 

 

On the other - buyers of nice new socks.

I found it slightly patronising.

[Dave at kelton]

Wholly agree with this sentiment. It is not about paying your subs and then sitting back and criticising what your organisation does. It is about getting off your backside and actively working for and practically defending shooting whatever type.

The in fighting in the shooting community really hacks me off. Just because you don’t shoot big days doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t defend the right of those who do.; vice versa for wildfowling or pigeon shooting. It’s a bit like the way fox hunting lacked support from other parts of the fieldsports community.

Thank goodness we have an organisation like BASC, which despite its faults, does do something practical to oppose WJ. If you don’t like the way it does it get onto local committees or put yourself up for Council.

[harkom]

11 hours ago, Poor Shot said:

I went to a talk/ Q&A by my regional BASC representative before Christmas and the bottom line of nearly every answer given was 'it is what it is and we'll just have to deal with it'. Questions ranged from the lead ban to firearms licensing and most other current issues. I left feeling very dissatisfied and quite disheartened to see that the number one shooting organisation was quite happy to maintain a status of just burying their head in the sand and placing their fingers in their ears while shouting la la la la.

Perhaps you are expecting too much .... from a sales and advertising organisation? Bsac December issue = 46 pages adverts, not including their self-promotional ones, out of 100 pages. So get out there with your credit card ... 4 x 4 vehicles are on offer to all? members.

[Pushandpull]

Dave at Kelton is correct to a point, but the unpleasant truth is that our side is losing in a war of attrition and we need to do better.

Just one example. My area used to be served by one energetic man with an excellent P.A. Now there are 5 possibly 6 regional staff (the exact number is not clear due to turnover). More members = more staff = what exactly ?  More courses on "Sustainable Duck Flighting" ?  That is NOT going to help when natural England or NRW come calling with their latest list of quarry species you can't touch on your local estuary.

Twenty years ago I contributed towards a headstone for Stanley Duncan's grave. I hope it's a heavy one because he must be restless these days.

 

[enfieldspares]

If the argument is that lead in the meat, in the flesh, is a poison. As the motivation behind BASC's call is selling of shot game into the food chain where the buyers demand non-lead. The BGA into which BASC has invested a large amount of money says that it is "working towards" lead free game. Then this applies:

So a goose shot in Scotland with two or even one lead BB pellets (each of .177 diameter) in its vital parts isn't OK? But a goose shot in Scotland with an FAC rated .177 airgun pellet and maybe a second follow up shot (which by the by will weigh more than the one or two lead BB shot) is OK?

That a deer shot under the farmers' defence with a solid 12 bore slug that retains all its mass isn't OK? But a deer shot with a high velocity .270 WCF that loses say 40% of its mass as small microscopic fragments in the deer is OK?

And if the argument is about spent lead shot the this:

If a small wood, call it Tom's Copse, is OK for a simulated driven day on clay pigeons as it is a defined area into which the lead shot of small size say English #7.5 or English #8 will be discharged against the clay pigeons (and maybe two or three hundred such shots fired in that simulated drive} then why isn't it OK to shoot Tom's Copse on a real driven day on which but maybe only twenty or thirty shots of large size shot say English #6 will be fired onto that same defined area?

It is daftness. It's OK to shoot clay pigeons on Tom's Copse but it isn't OK to shoot pheasants and indeed pheasants that are not sold but shared by the beaters and guns who are fully conversant of the risk in the same way that those beaters and guns that smoke tobacco take of it fully conversant of the risk? And do indeed as most of us do make every effort to pick the pellets out before cooking and consuming.

Again that's once more a question a journalist will ask. It's OK to shoot two to three hundred cartridges on clays (firing smaller shot so a count of more pellets) on Tom's Copse yet it isn't OK to shoot a tenth of that number of cartridges on the very same Tom's Copse (firing larger shot so a count of fewer pellets) on pheasants? So this position of clays OK game not OK will be exposed as the BASC nonsense position that it is

[HantsRob]

9 hours ago, Dave at kelton said:

The in fighting in the shooting community really hacks me off. Just because you don’t shoot big days doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t defend the right of those who do.; vice versa for wildfowling or pigeon shooting. It’s a bit like the way fox hunting lacked support from other parts of the fieldsports community.

I hear you, however you are talking about game vs wildfowling vs pigeon shooting. 

People keep forgetting about the clay only market which is pretty big. Whilst organisations only focus on their slice of the pie and fight against other branches, it'll never work. So far I am clay only, and I can't understand why some only have one agenda for their slice, rather than the whole pie.

[8 shot]

2 hours ago, HantsRob said:

I hear you, however you are talking about game vs wildfowling vs pigeon shooting. 

People keep forgetting about the clay only market which is pretty big. Whilst organisations only focus on their slice of the pie and fight against other branches, it'll never work. So far I am clay only, and I can't understand why some only have one agenda for their slice, rather than the whole pie.

So for me the Organisations should have picked there sole reason for banning lead be it Food safety, Environmental reasons or what ever, backed up with cold  hard evidence which there seem very little if any. This scatter brain approach from them is what is causing all the friction between the shooting community. I would hazard a guess there are more clay cartridges sold than lead game cartridges, so if banning it for food safety then carry on, if for the environment it has to be banned. Pest Control is the big decision for me like it or not it has to happen and the price these cartridges are coming in at are extortionate and rifle ammo is next to useless. Which will like it or not if it doesn't happen will put food security under pressure.So the organisations started this so pick your reason, and get on with it.

[HantsRob]

Agreed. There is no point BASC supporting lead removal in 5 years for game if they allow it for clays also because it's not in their interest to support clays. If they support it for game only but against for clay (unless purely for environment rather than food) then I would have a lot more interest in them.

The lack of evidence is frustrating, but the fact "powers" aren't using it to fight is unbelievable. Or, I am naive and just am missing something with clay eyes on.

[harkom]

On 01/01/2023 at 20:34, Conor O'Gorman said:

Shooting faces a choice: be held back by passengers and self-interest or be propelled forward by a unified, engaged and courageous community committed to high standards and sustainability. BASC chairman Eoghan Cameron highlights the issues facing shooting in 2023 in his New Year address.

https://basc.org.uk/unshakeable-determination/

If you have the time or interest.... read the above.... then , just for comparison....go to rspb website and punch in "how to report a wildlife crime".

This will show you just how ...submissive?...er,  prostrate..er, blindsided.... our "champions" for shooting sports have been and remain. Just remember that Bsac have been "co-operating" with this outfit since wagbi was succeeded by bsac.

[Weihrauch17]

On 01/01/2023 at 21:04, 8 shot said:

Something similar from the NFU former President/Chairman etc. over Christmas,about those who don't become members of Organisations are free loaders and are the ones doing all complaining but make on contributions to tough decisions ahead. BOTH as i see it suffering from dwindling membership.

Why would anyone join BASC they are the enemy within.

[Minky]

I was going to reply to this yesterday but I refrained from doing so.  Basic ARE and have been absolutely useless for years and years.  AND anyone shouting out how good they are is delusional.  

On 01/01/2023 at 21:04, 8 shot said:

Something similar from the NFU former President/Chairman etc. over Christmas,about those who don't become members of Organisations are free loaders and are the ones doing all complaining but make on contributions to tough decisions ahead. BOTH as i see it suffering from dwindling membership.

I read this and thought ... The prospect of execution does focus the mind .  Until basic is completely dismantled and all are booted out and a new version created that does actively and aggressively protect shooting and the like then the slope is very very slippery. And that's the way it is.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Minky

[Dave at kelton]

5 hours ago, HantsRob said:

I hear you, however you are talking about game vs wildfowling vs pigeon shooting. 

People keep forgetting about the clay only market which is pretty big. Whilst organisations only focus on their slice of the pie and fight against other branches, it'll never work. So far I am clay only, and I can't understand why some only have one agenda for their slice, rather than the whole pie.

A fair point but the thread is about a statement by BASC. As CPSA represents the clay side of shooting of which I am not a member I don’t know their position. Equally as an occasional clay shooter for nothing more than practice I have simply no opinion on how you pull the pie together under one organisation that challenges all attacks on shooting rather than differentiates the disciplines.

[HantsRob]

14 hours ago, Dave at kelton said:

A fair point but the thread is about a statement by BASC. As CPSA represents the clay side of shooting of which I am not a member I don’t know their position. Equally as an occasional clay shooter for nothing more than practice I have simply no opinion on how you pull the pie together under one organisation that challenges all attacks on shooting rather than differentiates the disciplines.

I think that's part of the issue. A lot of clay shooters go with BASC for insurance but aren't been looked after by them. 

I don't disagree that CPSA don't necessarily want to look outside clays either. But, CPSA have said to keep lead due to no demonstrable issues, but a reduction to 24g. The line of this not being a viable load for game I have no idea on but believe this had contention in the past from some members:

Lead Statement from CPSA CEO Iain Parker - CPSA

Not going against you Dave, if anything I quite agree with your above statement. 

[Ajarrett]

I wonder why the Chairman didn't mention that the hard weather criteria which precipitates a wildfowling suspension, has been tightened without - it seems - BASC noticing/doing anything about it?! Now it's easier to have a wildfowling suspension. We spotted it and pointed it out to BASC SE Region.