Plymouth Shooting Enquiry

[hassanizhar]

Yes, no one wants to touch them.  Not common in the UK

[old man]

18 hours ago, Scully said:

I genuinely believe the police as a licensing authority are a body no longer fit for purpose, but have no idea what the alternative is. Meanwhile we are all vulnerable to one cock up after another. 

G4S, Sodexo, Virgin, Vlad the lad? Take your pick as they will all have signed confidentiality  papers so everything will be fine? 🤮 Till it isn't?

Maybe, at least with PC49 and his mates we hopefully stand some chance of it being controlled effectively to some level?

[JohnfromUK]

Quite a lot here; https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-64674901

Most criticism directed at Devon & Cornwall Police, but the Chief Constable saying blaming the licensing system "He said: "I accept Devon and Cornwall Police has failed our communities in regard to Jake Davison, but had there been clearer national guidance, direction and specific legislation concerning firearms licensing - decision-making locally may well have been very different."  

The local (Labour) M.P saying "I do not have confidence in Devon and Cornwall Police to issue firearms licences, and every gun certificate they have issued must be reviewed in light of the failings laid bare by the inquest.  I am angry. Our community is angry. We want to see comprehensive change to prevent a tragedy like this from ever happening again."

His G.P had also declined to provide information "As part of the application process Davison had declared his autism and Asperger's but when police sought relevant information from his GP, the doctor declined to provide any as it was not mandatory."

 

[garjo]

Just watched the report on BBC news, it's beyond belief that he ever got a license. Showed the clip of him beating someone up and the shotgun used. 

[holloway]

The bottom line is that if the police had followed the existing guidelines he would never in a million years been able to shoot all of those poor people.
Complete incompetence!

We really do need a Basc statement emphasising that the police didn’t follow guidelines I haven’t seen any Input from them at all ,apologies if there has been one ,come on Basc South west were are you.

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by holloway

[Dougy]

Just got in and watched it back "TWICE" the report clearly says they were incompetent yet they blame a fault with the licensing system and want improve it. 

Fuming. 

The guy simply should not have been given his licence back, and reading the report from Dunblane and Hungerford again failing of the issuing forces. 

 

 

[Newbie to this]

27 minutes ago, holloway said:

The bottom line is that if the police had followed the existing guidelines he would never in a million years been able to shoot all of those poor people.
Complete incompetence!

This, the police are 100% at fault, for this shooting.

That's not to say he may not have killed anyway, but if the police did their job, he would not have had a firearm to carry out this atrocity.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Newbie to this

[holloway]

They had 2 chances to avoid this first when they granted the original certificate and then when they gave his gun back ! 
Imagine how you would feel if it had been your loved one killed like that .

[Weihrauch17]

7 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

This, the police are 100% at fault, for this shooting.

That's not to say he may not of killed anyway, but if the police did their job, he would not have had a firearm, to carry out this atrocity.

As with almost every mass shooting in this country.

[Jim Neal]

4 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

if the police did their job, he would not have had a firearm to carry out this atrocity

Reading that, I can't help thinking of the old saying "be careful what you wish for" 😕

With this incident happening, closely followed by the one with the teacher/husband/daughter, it's only going to mean one thing for gun owners in the UK.

[Newbie to this]

5 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

Reading that, I can't help thinking of the old saying "be careful what you wish for" 😕

With this incident happening, closely followed by the one with the teacher/husband/daughter, it's only going to mean one thing for gun owners in the UK.

So after his police mandated anger management course for assault (I believe of a minor, and most would have been facing a judge) , the police were right to give his guns back 🤔

[holloway]

3 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

So after his police mandated anger management course for assault (I believe of a minor, and most would have been facing a judge) , the police were right to give his guns back 🤔

Exactly this ,the police failed to do there job properly the enquiry states very clearly exactly this.

[Bobba]

Coroners findings  getting an airing on BBC Breakfast right now. Local Plymouth MP headline grabbing, riding on the coat tails of this tragedy - Inept police:  Need for robust review of law and police procedures: no justifiable need for pump action guns to be stored in domestic properties: applicants to pay full cost of licensing system to cover in-depth personal investigation.etc Reasons for holding firearms need tightening. Public need protection and should be able to have confidence in police and licensing system. Just a few of his observations. Let’s hope he’s not the start of a small snowball rolling down the hill….!

[oldypigeonpopper]

3 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

So after his police mandated anger management course for assault (I believe of a minor, and most would have been facing a judge) , the police were right to give his guns back 🤔

Hello, there's a video of him assaulting , not sure it was a minor 🤔?

[Tedward]

I believe he was 16 years old, attended hospital, but did not want to press charges.

[GHE]

15 hours ago, holloway said:

The bottom line is that if the police had followed the existing guidelines he would never in a million years been able to shoot all of those poor people.
Complete incompetence!

We really do need a Basc statement emphasising that the police didn’t follow guidelines I haven’t seen any Input from them at all ,apologies if there has been one ,come on Basc South west were are you.

 

 

14 hours ago, Weihrauch17 said:

As with almost every mass shooting in this country.

Not most mass shootings in this country, all of them!

Let's start with Hungerford. Michael Ryan should never have been granted a certificate, the secretary of his gun club warned the police about him but they ignored him, it suited the police to keep Ryan happy.

And then there was Dunblane. Hamilton was known to be a very dodgy character, with fraud allegations and allegations of a very unhealthy interest in young boys. His certificate should not have been renewed because he hadn't bought any ammo for over 10 years, so no longer had good reason..

The other one was Derick Bird in Whitehaven, a prohibited person due to his criminal record, and he later came to police notice over allegations of assault and also sexual misconduct, but the police did nothing.

The current system works perfectly well when administered correctly, but as always the police failings are ignored and legitimate shooters are blamed for their failings.

I think that it's high time that our shooting organisations woke up and represented us properly!

[wymberley]

Watch out for Luke Pollard - one of the few Labour Mps who's in with a chance of making a name for himself - the desire and determination is there.

[Tedward]

1 hour ago, GHE said:

 

Not most mass shootings in this country, all of them!

Let's start with Hungerford. Michael Ryan should never have been granted a certificate, the secretary of his gun club warned the police about him but they ignored him, it suited the police to keep Ryan happy.

And then there was Dunblane. Hamilton was known to be a very dodgy character, with fraud allegations and allegations of a very unhealthy interest in young boys. His certificate should not have been renewed because he hadn't bought any ammo for over 10 years, so no longer had good reason..

The other one was Derick Bird in Whitehaven, a prohibited person due to his criminal record, and he later came to police notice over allegations of assault and also sexual misconduct, but the police did nothing.

The current system works perfectly well when administered correctly, but as always the police failings are ignored and legitimate shooters are blamed for their failings.

I think that it's high time that our shooting organisations woke up and represented us properly!

In a nutshell - abc, - accuracy, brevity and clarity.

[wymberley]

17 minutes ago, Tedward said:

In a nutshell - abc, - accuracy, brevity and clarity.

Did Ryan complete his probationary period at the club?

Did Hamilton's local police sergeant recommend refusal but was overridden?

[CharlieT]

18 hours ago, Dougy said:

Just got in and watched it back "TWICE" the report clearly says they were incompetent yet they blame a fault with the licensing system and want improve it. 

Fuming. 

The guy simply should not have been given his licence back, and reading the report from Dunblane and Hungerford again failing of the issuing forces. 

 

 

And let us not forget that FELWG, who meet regularly to discuss and formulate licensing policy discussing in minute detail everything from staff training to how many rounds license holders should use to zero their rifle, is attended by and made up from representatives of licensing departments one of which happens to be Devon and Cornwall.  There is no excuse for D&C not doing their job properly when they themselves formulate policy. 

[old man]

19 hours ago, Dougy said:

Just got in and watched it back "TWICE" the report clearly says they were incompetent yet they blame a fault with the licensing system and want improve it. 

Fuming. 

The guy simply should not have been given his licence back, and reading the report from Dunblane and Hungerford again failing of the issuing forces. 

 

 

Yep, as usual a licensing cock up?

Nice pass of the ball to blame the guidance and everything else but the reality?

This will allow again for a further push against the majority?

Very cheesed.

 

[Jim Neal]

18 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

So after his police mandated anger management course for assault (I believe of a minor, and most would have been facing a judge) , the police were right to give his guns back 🤔

Eh?  I think you've misunderstood me.  What I meant was we are surely in for a liberal dose of this:

14 hours ago, Bobba said:

Local Plymouth MP headline grabbing, riding on the coat tails of this tragedy - Inept police:  Need for robust review of law and police procedures: no justifiable need for pump action guns to be stored in domestic properties: applicants to pay full cost of licensing system to cover in-depth personal investigation.etc Reasons for holding firearms need tightening. Public need protection and should be able to have confidence in police and licensing system. Just a few of his observations. Let’s hope he’s not the start of a small snowball rolling down the hill….!

 

[Newbie to this]

6 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

Eh?  I think you've misunderstood me.  What I meant was we are surely in for a liberal dose of this:

 

Definitely a misunderstanding, as the only thing I was wishing for, was for the police to have done their job right, and not given a violent person their guns back after seizure. If the reports are true, the licensing department were not even immediately informed of his arrest for assault.

There were a whole bunch of mistakes (not just one) by the police.

I agree with you it will be us that pay for their mistakes, as always.

But that doesn't detract from the fact that the police are responsible (in part, a big part) for this shooting, and if they did their job right, he would not have had a gun (legally held anyway) to carry out this shooting.

[harkom]

2 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

There were a whole bunch of mistakes (not just one) by the police.

I agree with you it will be us that pay for their mistakes, as always.

But that doesn't detract from the fact that the police are responsible (in part, a big part) for this shooting, and if they did their job right, he would not have had a gun (legally held anyway) to carry out this shooting.

Undoubtably the police and their FL Dept were at fault, however it has been reported that the GP declined to pass on to them the medical notes of the culprit. Just another case of NHS professional pocketing the cash ( certificate applicants' fee ) and not fulfilling function. What does BSAC have to say on this, Conner?

[GHE]

On 21/02/2023 at 10:18, wymberley said:

Watch out for Luke Pollard - one of the few Labour Mps who's in with a chance of making a name for himself - the desire and determination is there.

Watch out how?

What can we, as individuals, actually do?

Rebutting anti-shooting hysteria is a job for our shooting organisations, but what action have they actually taken?

2 hours ago, harkom said:

Undoubtably the police and their FL Dept were at fault, however it has been reported that the GP declined to pass on to them the medical notes of the culprit. Just another case of NHS professional pocketing the cash ( certificate applicants' fee ) and not fulfilling function. What does BSAC have to say on this, Conner?

No, because at the relevant time his GP acted within the rules as s/he was not legally required to supply this information.
But, I do agree that BASC (and the other shooting organisations should have A LOT to say about this.