Black powder cartridges in a nitro proofed gun

[Fuddster]

Hi all,

I have a black powder hammer gun with some pitting evident in both barrels. Before I next shoot it I'll be getting my local gunsmith to check it over for safety.

however, I have a  black powder vintage gun day on pheasants coming up.

Should the old gun get the death sentence, I was wondering if I could shoot black powder cartridges through an in a nitro proofed gun?

I would have thought the pressures involved would be lower in a BP cartridge?

any advice welcomed.

cheers,

f.

 

[Scully]

I’m in no way an expert in this matter, but yes, logic would have me agree with you. 
My only concern would be the corrosive aspect of BP, but I’m sure if you’re familiar with this aspect, as you will be, that neither would be a problem. 

[ditchman]

50 minutes ago, Scully said:

I’m in no way an expert in this matter, but yes, logic would have me agree with you. 
My only concern would be the corrosive aspect of BP, but I’m sure if you’re familiar with this aspect, as you will be, that neither would be a problem. 

true for the original proper black powder..........very corrosive...barrels need to be washed out with hot soapy water...in the bath....but be aware of the fallout from the mrs regards the black ring around the bath........

the new black powder is not as corrosive........forget the name ......Pyrodex ?

Edited November 5, 2023 by ditchman

[London Best]

Black is no problem in a nitro gun.

[JohnfromUK]

2 hours ago, London Best said:

Black is no problem in a nitro gun.

This /\.

I believe - and please someone correct me if I'm wrong - that at least some of the corrosion issue with traditional muzzle loaded black concerned the mercuric primers.  Not sure if this is also true of current cartridges loaded with black? 

Certainly, when using a percussion muzzle loader with black corrosion is a big risk and cleaning with boiling water  followed by thorough drying and oiling - followed by close monitoring is important as the primer residue was/is horribly corrosive.

AS has been said above - there is a modern alternative called Pyrodex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_powder_substitute but I understand that also requires rigorous cleaning similar to black.

Note that (as far as I know) you usually have to collect black powder items from the supplier as carriers don't handle them.

[DUNKS]

We have bought and had delivered black powder cartridges from Just Cartridges but no one I know will deliver black powder, you do have to fetch it. The Eley ones we got were horrid weak things so I have taken to loading my own. I do love black powder.

Edited November 7, 2023 by DUNKS

[Dave at kelton]

Yes you can shoot BP through a nitro gun and I have many times. One tip is when you have finished fire a couple of nitro fibre wad shells through to clean out most of the BP fowling. To clean out your barrels scrub with a 50:50 mix of concentrated windscreen washer fluid and water then dry off. This removes nearly all the BP residue. Once dry clean as usual and oil.  I use this all the time in my percussion guns.

[snarepeg]

As said.

i shoot black in my berreta, the Mercury primers were the main culprit I believe.

a couple of felt wad nitro after gives a good start to cleaning.

pressures are lower in black.

enjoy 👍

[ditchman]

2 minutes ago, snarepeg said:

As said.

i shoot black in my berreta, the Mercury primers were the main culprit I believe.

a couple of felt wad nitro after gives a good start to cleaning.

pressures are lower in black.

enjoy 👍

i believe BP will give better patterns.............can anyone confirm this ?

[snarepeg]

10 minutes ago, ditchman said:

i believe BP will give better patterns.............can anyone confirm this ?

I believe the slower the velocity the better the pattern.

black is a bit slower, around 1200 ft/sec as 1400 or more in nitro.

[Fuddster]

cheers guys for all your responses.

BP it is then!

f.

[enfieldspares]

Hello. This may be total tommyrot but here goes.

Blackpowder is (or was) still used for the initial proof of British shotguns. This was done with blackpowder as it delivered pressure the full whole length of the barrel. It was sometimes called "a gunmakers' proof" as it revealed early any defects in the barrel.

Further smokeless powder was then used when the finished gun was to be tested for smokeless powders. These delivered higher pressure but incidentally as faster burning in a shorter length of the barrel.

OK this is simplified too much but yes in theory a gun safe with smokeless powder will be safe with blacvkpowder and, indeed, if a British made gun of a certain time it will indeed have been already "proofed" using blackpowder.

Edited November 7, 2023 by enfieldspares

[Westley]

Excuse my ignorance, but would it not be better to wash out the barrels after use, rather than immerse then entirely in water. I would be concerned that IF there was any looseness in the top or bottom ribs, water could enter and start unnoticed corrosion. Am I right or wrong  ?  My pal that used black powder, cleaned the barrels with boiling water, but always poured it through a funnel, into the barrel.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Westley said:

My pal that used black powder, cleaned the barrels with boiling water, but always poured it through a funnel, into the barrel.

Thats how I've seen it done - with a ping-pong bat with a large hole bored in it to hold the barrels and avoid burned fingers!

[enfieldspares]

Cold water works also. The idea of the water is to effectively "drown" those things on the residue that are hygroscopic. Which oil will not do as isn't water. In WWII what did they do with rifles that used the corrosive mercuric primer? Certainly not water as water was for drinking. They pulled through their rifles every day.

[Westley]

45 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Thats how I've seen it done - with a ping-pong bat with a large hole bored in it to hold the barrels and avoid burned fingers!

I think my pal used a pair of 'Marigolds' when gun cleaning..................we always did worry about him   😂

1 minute ago, enfieldspares said:

Cold water works also. The idea of the water is to effectively "drown" those things on the residue that are hygroscopic. Which oil will not do as isn't water. In WWII what did they do with rifles that used the corrosive mercuric primer? Certainly not water as water was for drinking. They pulled through their rifles every day.

Bloomin eck  !  I struggle to hit the pan,  trying to pee down a .303 barrel, I would have NO CHANCE  !    😄

[Feltwad]

Yes you can shoot black powder cartridges through a modern nitro gun , there  can be two problems  depending on the number of shots  First is the  ejectors  when a black powder cartridge is ejected there is a small amount of powder residue still   in the fired case  this can  stop the ejectors from working .Another problem is using plastic  components because black powder melts plastic with forms on the barrel walls it is always best to use paper cartridges cases  with  felt plus  card wads for the best results it is also best to load your own  using 2or 3 FFg keep off the pydrox it is very  corrosive  For a 12 bore cartridge for pheasant shooting  a good  load is 2.3/4 drms of black powder. a1/8 card wad then a  half inch felt  wad then another 1/8 card wad then 1.1/8 oz of 5or 6 shot  a 1/16 card over the shot and finish with a rolled turnover For both pheasant and partridge at driven game  or walking up I find  this that best load  which I have used for the past 75 years  in both muzzle loaders and sxs hammer guns  which will kill birds out to  40 yards ,always remember if you are on a good driven stand the barrel can become to hot to handle Good luck and keep your powder dry 

Feltwad

[Dave at kelton]

2 hours ago, Feltwad said:

Yes you can shoot black powder cartridges through a modern nitro gun , there  can be two problems  depending on the number of shots  First is the  ejectors  when a black powder cartridge is ejected there is a small amount of powder residue still   in the fired case  this can  stop the ejectors from working .Another problem is using plastic  components because black powder melts plastic with forms on the barrel walls it is always best to use paper cartridges cases  with  felt plus  card wads for the best results it is also best to load your own  using 2or 3 FFg keep off the pydrox it is very  corrosive  For a 12 bore cartridge for pheasant shooting  a good  load is 2.3/4 drms of black powder. a1/8 card wad then a  half inch felt  wad then another 1/8 card wad then 1.1/8 oz of 5or 6 shot  a 1/16 card over the shot and finish with a rolled turnover For both pheasant and partridge at driven game  or walking up I find  this that best load  which I have used for the past 75 years  in both muzzle loaders and sxs hammer guns  which will kill birds out to  40 yards ,always remember if you are on a good driven stand the barrel can become to hot to handle Good luck and keep your powder dry 

Feltwad

Agree all of this but I now use brass cases.

[Gunman]

On 05/11/2023 at 18:16, Fuddster said:

Hi all,

I have a black powder hammer gun with some pitting evident in both barrels. Before I next shoot it I'll be getting my local gunsmith to check it over for safety.

however, I have a  black powder vintage gun day on pheasants coming up.

Should the old gun get the death sentence, I was wondering if I could shoot black powder cartridges through an in a nitro proofed gun?

I would have thought the pressures involved would be lower in a BP cartridge?

any advice welcomed.

cheers,

f.

 

If its a Black Powder Vintage Day , will you be allowed to use an non black powder gun unless its of the correct era ?

[Fuddster]

no issue as its mostly guys I've known for years-my substitute gun will be my AYA XXV dated around 1955 so still slightly vintage.

cheers 

 

f.

[2sp11]

I wouldn't introduce black powder or its substitues to any smokeless gun simply for cleaning and maintenance reasons.  I have shot pyrodex in my muzzleloaders and now limit it to use in my stainless barreled inline rifle (the pellets are handy and convenient) for my state's muzzle loader whitetail season. Pyrodex residue is nasty to clean and will rust metal as well as anything.  

As for black powder, if you are very (!) confident in your cleaning abilities and the cartridges are loaded properly you shouldn't have a problem.  But remember that smoke and ash will get everywhere including back in the action.  

[Feltwad]

There  are certain thing to remember when shooting a black powder hammer gun The main thing is a hammer gun in the right hands and at a shooting distance of 40 yards  not talking about high pheasants will kill has many pheasants  has a modern over and under  and one pheasant killed with a vintage hammer gun is worth five with a modern gun  Also if the gun was  a percussion or flintlock it would be worth double that figure Black powder shooting for those that shoot using a vintage hammer  gun  is serious  business  there is one thing  that  gets me when you hear  some that, refer to black powder shooting has a fun day to impress a few friends  and  cannot be taken serious

Feltwad

Feltwad

[hafod]

Yes you can I shoot black powder 2,5 inch cartridges in my father's old Joseph Bourne 12 bore nitro proof hammer gun the smoke the flash and the report surely a change from nitro

I,m sure i can see the ghost col peter hawker giving me a appreciative nod when I fire it lol

[Fil]

On 07/11/2023 at 17:09, DUNKS said:

We have bought and had delivered black powder cartridges from Just Cartridges but no one I know will deliver black powder, you do have to fetch it. The Eley ones we got were horrid weak things so I have taken to loading my own. I do love black powder.

Kynamco in Suffolk still load black powder. Works out about a pound a shot delivered. Having an outing with my Bozard H/G for the last two days our syndicate clear up days with them. Brilliant. 

[Fuddster]

cheers for that info Fil.

I'll look them up.

 

f.