Yellow Bear Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 5 hours ago, amateur said: Will there also be one to discipline the anonymous civil servants who oversaw the specification and implementation of Horizon? Remember that until 2015 this was a state owned business run by, you've guessed it, civil servants. I would not hold my breath waiting for them to be held to account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrycatcat1 Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Tony Bliar was PM when it was all brought in, should he and his Government be under scrutiny? They reckon, on telly this morning, that the CPS should/could have intervened with that amount of private prosecutions. Who was the head of the CPS at that time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 1 hour ago, Yellow Bear said: Remember that until 2015 this was a state owned business run by, you've guessed it, civil servants. I would not hold my breath waiting for them to be held to account. Exactly my point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 34 minutes ago, harrycatcat1 said: They reckon, on telly this morning, that the CPS should/could have intervened with that amount of private prosecutions. Who was the head of the CPS at that time? Drum Roll please, Kier Starmer........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrycatcat1 Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 (edited) I had to laugh at Lee Anderson MP comments yesterday about the Ed Davey interview about the post office scandal. Lee said "you would get more sense out of someone that had been in Wetherspoons from morning till night" 🤣🤣🤣 Edited January 9 by harrycatcat1 Spelling of Davey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 And yet it seems .gov are about to commence another contract with Fujitsu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 3 hours ago, Yellow Bear said: Remember that until 2015 this was a state owned business run by, you've guessed it, civil servants. I would not hold my breath waiting for them to be held to account. Agreed, it's maybe time they were forced out from underneath their rocks and into the sun? 1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Drum Roll please, Kier Starmer........ No surprise? 1 hour ago, harrycatcat1 said: I had to laugh at Lee Anderson MP comments yesterday about the Ed Davey interview about the post office scandal. Lee said "you would get more sense out of someone that had been in Wetherspoons from morning till night" 🤣🤣🤣 Another fool, I haven't forgotten their about turn over university fees to enable themselves into some sort of power? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 4 hours ago, Bobba said: 1. The cash would not need to be removed. As mentioned by the forensic accountant there was the use of a suspense accountant. Thus the double entry would be maintained in the central system but for some transactions the equal and opposite entry did not go to the correct head of charge (the PO branch) but to the suspense account, so branches would then appear out of kilter. 2. The PO would not need access to the cash. As both the Fujitsu whistle blower and PO Rep maintained there were operatives moving transactions in real time in the live system (presumably into / from the suspense account) in an attempt to rectify matters. Yes, there should therefore be an audit trail. But as they knew what was going wrong and hiding it, it’s integrity would be questionable. I still think it would need a line in the accounts indicating source. My wife was a financial analyst for Imperial and was saying the same. When they have artworks and other off ledger sales they can only go to profit with a source. Money cannot go into a suspense account without being recorded and that would show a source. Do we know how much cash was involved? I wondered if it could be lost in rounding but its a few million. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 (edited) I'm told that she's handed the CBE back with immediate effect. Hopefully, they'll offer the OBE - at the very least - to Mr Bates once more. Edited January 9 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 14 minutes ago, wymberley said: I'm told that she's handed the CBE back with immediate effect. Hopefully, they'll offer the OBE - at the very least - to Mr Bates once more. Just saw that good news and an easy win now for Sunak to switch one to Bates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 oowee - When this first arose, I wonder if Fujitsu or the Post Office Investigations Branch compared alleged shortfalls at the Post Office branches with money mysteriously arriving into another account. If they system was totally flawed, it might not show up. If there were minor flaws, then the money sources should be traceable. Let us be clear, the Post Office knew what the flaws were and chose to cover it up. It isn't as though they were unaware. Knowing the flaws they sailed ahead, prosecuting innocent Postmasters on flawed evidence. I trust those who perjured themselves - either in the witness box or by MG11 - will face justice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 4 minutes ago, oowee said: Just saw that good news and an easy win now for Sunak to switch one to Bates. Don't think it would be amiss if he got Charles to dust off the Wilkinson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 39 minutes ago, Gordon R said: Let us be clear, the Post Office knew what the flaws were and chose to cover it up. It isn't as though they were unaware. Knowing the flaws they sailed ahead, prosecuting innocent Postmasters on flawed evidence. I trust those who perjured themselves - either in the witness box or by MG11 - will face justice. I do hope Justice will come through. Watching the series I had no idea that they had / have special powers of prosecution. There is still some of that in play with other agencies (utilities and Openreach) I wonder if these will also be reviewed. I suspect it will all fall in the too hard to do pile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 oowee - there were a number of agencies who had / still have their own power of prosecution and did not use CPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobba Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 2 hours ago, Gordon R said: oowee - When this first arose, I wonder if Fujitsu or the Post Office Investigations Branch compared alleged shortfalls at the Post Office branches with money mysteriously arriving into another account. If they system was totally flawed, it might not show up. If there were minor flaws, then the money sources should be traceable. Been there. Seen it. Done it. Still got the scars. This type of situation is not new. Many moons ago, with others, including one of the major consultancy houses, in my then employment we installed a new financial system on new platforms. This meant parallel running was not possible. Therefore, End to end testing and cradle to grave testing was rigorous. Despite this, four days after Go Live the system fell over. Reconciliations were picking up transaction errors. But no individual or organisation had been adversely affected. It was a systems problem. When the dust settled we were able to demonstrate that while no cash had gone missing, numerous heads of charge had not been correctly debited / credited, including suspense accounts. Systems failures do happen but it is how they are managed that counts. It seems to me that between them the PO and Fujitsu must have known from the beginning of the roll out that things were not right. That they thought the could manage it, but when that became impossible decided to blame others and cover up their problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrycatcat1 Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 2 hours ago, Gordon R said: oowee - there were a number of agencies who had / still have their own power of prosecution and did not use CPS. I may be wrong but I thought that I heard today that there are provisions that the CPS can get involved in private prosecutions if alarmbells start ringing such as in this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agriv8 Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 36 minutes ago, Bobba said: Been there. Seen it. Done it. Still got the scars. This type of situation is not new. Many moons ago, with others, including one of the major consultancy houses, in my then employment we installed a new financial system on new platforms. This meant parallel running was not possible. Therefore, End to end testing and cradle to grave testing was rigorous. Despite this, four days after Go Live the system fell over. Reconciliations were picking up transaction errors. But no individual or organisation had been adversely affected. It was a systems problem. When the dust settled we were able to demonstrate that while no cash had gone missing, numerous heads of charge had not been correctly debited / credited, including suspense accounts. Systems failures do happen but it is how they are managed that counts. It seems to me that between them the PO and Fujitsu must have known from the beginning of the roll out that things were not right. That they thought the could manage it, but when that became impossible decided to blame others and cover up their problems. Bobby your thoughts are Backed up by a report here ! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-67921974 Agriv8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 He wan't alone in telling the Post Office that Horizon was rubbish. The scary part of this is just how widespread the cover up was. Just how many Fujitsu and Post Office employees were involved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 38 minutes ago, Gordon R said: He wan't alone in telling the Post Office that Horizon was rubbish. The scary part of this is just how widespread the cover up was. Just how many Fujitsu and Post Office employees were involved? The scary part for me, is the first trial of the system in the North East threw up similar problems and resulted in Postmasters going to court. Against this background it was still rolled out. It would be hard as an employee of Fujitsu to cry foul against such a valuable contract. The pressure to do what is asked by the employer and keep the cash rolling would be huge. Same in the Post Office small cogs would not want to rock the boat for fear of career impairment and bigger cogs for loss of bonus. Particularly the case when everyone involved maybe only has sight of part of the issue. It wont be easy to find the perjury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 The Police should start with Ed Davey and work their way down. Given the Civil Service habit of minuted meetings, it shouldn't be impossible. Anyone who appeared as a witness for the Post Office - either in court or by MG11. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armsid Posted January 9 Author Report Share Posted January 9 It seems strange that a TV drama about the scandal should bring up the rage against the miscarriage of justice when not much was said by the public during the trials of the postmasters/mistresses just shows how putting it on TV right in peoples faces shows up our hierarchy and the way blame is laid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 1 minute ago, armsid said: It seems strange that a TV drama about the scandal should bring up the rage against the miscarriage of justice when not much was said by the public during the trials of the postmasters/mistresses just shows how putting it on TV right in peoples faces shows up our hierarchy and the way blame is laid I think that there is a real risk that after such a TV docudrama, it will not be possible to have a fair trial. Of course, that may be part of the plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 9 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: Of course, that may be part of the plan. As before "absolutely" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 (edited) Interesting that Gareth Jenkins is trying to get a deal for immunity, he was the lead for the Horizon System and Fujitsu and was instrumental in many of the prosecutions of Sub Post Masters. Edited January 10 by TIGHTCHOKE Capitalisation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 I worry that the convictions will be overturned, taxpayers compensation for the Postmasters and the matter quietly dropped. The usual "lessons have been learned" and those guilty of perjury can rest easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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